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Author Topic: Questions every Bitcoin investor needs to ask himself/herself.  (Read 6468 times)
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austonst
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June 15, 2013, 08:21:28 PM
 #21

I wouldn't be surprised if the Russian government has managed it. As for why civilians haven't broke it, it has to do with the fact they are dirt poor compared to the higher echelons of society and that academic research is highly controlled. At least, that's my theory. Again, cryptanalysis isn't equivalent to auditing source code.

Quick google searches will turn up many results for peer-reviewed, highly cited, public articles discussing attacks on SHA-2. These come from many different countries, and cover many old and new attacks. Do you have any evidence to back up your theory that academic research worldwide on SHA-2 is being highly controlled? That's a pretty wild claim to make with no supporting facts.

The federal government isn't a unified organization. In fact, if I were higher up in the NSA, I would want the lower branches of the government to use weak cryptography so I could have access to all their communications and resources.

And who says the NSA uses SHA256? Do you work for the NSA? I doubt even the President knows their operating procedures. They likely use cryptography that isn't available to the public.

And why would an organization with a classified budget have their real and full policy out in the open on the web?

You mentioned you wouldn't be surprised if Russia has broken SHA-256. Do you believe that the NSA would tell the rest of the government to use hashes that Russia could compromise? What you're suggesting is that the NSA is scheming against the rest of the government, opening them up to surveillance from the NSA and other countries. Again, this is an extraordinary claim. Do you have any evidence for it?

I provided premises which required no stretch of the imagination to accept. Is it unreasonable to think that the entire public research world can come close to matching the intelligence of one small group? Is it unreasonable to believe that the NSA is acting with national security in mind when suggesting Suite B? You have responded to both of these premises with completely ungrounded ideas about conspiracies and schemes. How am I supposed to prove you wrong? You ever hear about the teapot? What could I say to convince you that your ideas are probabilistically unlikely and are not reasonable beliefs to hold?

They could have rigged the contest indirectly. A lot of the contestants weren't even revealed and tons of them were rejected. The NIST could have very well  intentionally chosen a weak hash function that only the NSA could compromise.

How the winning hash function was chosen was not totally open and clear. They gave some vague requirements but not much beyond that. They could say it's "fast and secure" but that's taking their word on it. In the end, you're relying on trust.
No. http://keccak.noekeon.org/third_party.html. Are you saying we can't trust ANY of these well-respected third part verifiers? There's been so much public work done on analyzing Keccak, and results are very promising.

It doesn't but it's still based on the core DSA technology. The bit security is improved but in the end it is a slight modification. ECDSA is directly based on DSA. It's equivalent technology.
The math is entirely different. EC multiplication is nothing like standard multiplication. You want to claim a vulnerability in DSA implies a weakness in ECDSA? Prove it. Give me a link to some research showing that, or point out where in the math there might be some similarity.

Gordonium
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June 15, 2013, 08:43:18 PM
Last edit: June 15, 2013, 11:16:32 PM by Gordonium
 #22

"The great achievements of civilization have not come from government bureaus. Einstein didn’t construct his theory under order from a bureaucrat. Henry Ford didn’t revolutionize the automobile industry that way." - Milton Friedman

My point is that looters won't beat Satoshi. He is the man who said that he would stop the looters of the world.

And he did.
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June 15, 2013, 10:02:35 PM
 #23

All this was released before the terrorists were trying to take away our freedom and the US decided it had to take away our freedoms to protect those freedoms.

Nobody wants to "take away" your freedom but your very own government.

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June 15, 2013, 11:25:35 PM
 #24

"The great achievements of civilization have not come from government bureaus. Einstein didn’t construct his theory under order from a bureaucrat. Henry Ford didn’t revolutionize the automobile industry that way." - Milton Friedman

My point is that looters won't beat Satoshi. He is the man who said that he would stop the looters of the world.

And he did.

The notable exception is of course the Internet.

Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
bassclef
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June 16, 2013, 12:21:26 AM
 #25

"The great achievements of civilization have not come from government bureaus. Einstein didn’t construct his theory under order from a bureaucrat. Henry Ford didn’t revolutionize the automobile industry that way." - Milton Friedman

My point is that looters won't beat Satoshi. He is the man who said that he would stop the looters of the world.

And he did.

The notable exception is of course the Internet.

The Internet may have been born out of a government agency, but it certainly hasn't grown into what it is today because of it. They deserve a little credit, but don't go too far.
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June 16, 2013, 04:31:52 AM
 #26

Why would they provide the world with algorithms that would allow the world to hide information successfully?
Well, there's your answer. DSA and SHA-256 are not encryption algorithms, and are not used to hide information. They are used to authenticate data and communications, ie, make sure it hasn't been tampered with and was really created by the person who claims to have created it. The NSA receives data from other US government agencies and foreign governments as well as private companies. The NSA absolutely requires a way for these people providing them data to prove that they really are who they say are and that their data hasn't been tampered with. The only way they can do that is to provide secure public-key cryptosystems and hashing algorithms, and they daren't risk including a backdoor in case an enemy finds it and uses it to feed the NSA false data that appears to come from trusted sources. If these algorithms are flawed, the NSA's whole operation is in jeopardy.

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June 16, 2013, 06:30:07 AM
 #27

"The great achievements of civilization have not come from government bureaus. Einstein didn’t construct his theory under order from a bureaucrat. Henry Ford didn’t revolutionize the automobile industry that way." - Milton Friedman

My point is that looters won't beat Satoshi. He is the man who said that he would stop the looters of the world.

And he did.

The notable exception is of course the Internet.

The government commissioned it after the universities developed their networks.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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June 16, 2013, 01:01:43 PM
 #28


The notable exception is of course the Internet.

The government commissioned it after the universities developed their networks.

Arpanet?

BitCoin is NOT a pyramid - it's a pagoda.
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June 16, 2013, 01:40:03 PM
 #29

I think the OP needs to read up a bit more on the origin of Bitcoin and the Cypherpunks.

While it's important to keep one's guard up, one of the very aims of Bitcoin and the associated cryptography is to evade state eavesdropping and control. To suggest otherwise is quite ridiculous.

Start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cypherpunk

Since "Satoshi" isn't around, maybe also pop into Hal Finney's thread here and thank him.

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