Is Avalon mining with customer hardware? Answer is here.

[rovchris]

By that argument, should the 100BTC batch 3 customers go before the 75BTC Batch 2?  Clearly that doesn't make sense.

The 75BTC batch#2 was paid 2 weeks before 55BTC batch#2.

If that is true and have no reason to doubt you - I can only assume the price difference was down to the change in Dollar BTC price. So in essence everyone has paid the same.

When you purchase hardware with BTC and it has one single purpose to mine BTC LDO, you can ignore the exchange rate as the only way of assessing ROI is by measuring ROI in BTC the device will produce.  ie if it produces less BTC than you spent you should have held on to the BTC as it would have netted you more profit, if it produces more BTC you've made a good purchase and netted more profit than holding.  This is what these guys are complaining about and that is why you can ignore the exchange rate.

I totally agree with both you guys - if they were charging in BTC they should honour it.  Otherwise what is the point of BTC it then might as well be called Dollar Mk 2.

[1713422991]

1713422991

[1713422991]

1713422991

[1713422991]

1713422991

[Flying Hellfish]

By that argument, should the 100BTC batch 3 customers go before the 75BTC Batch 2?  Clearly that doesn't make sense.

The 75BTC batch#2 was paid 2 weeks before 55BTC batch#2.

If that is true and have no reason to doubt you - I can only assume the price difference was down to the change in Dollar BTC price. So in essence everyone has paid the same.

When you purchase hardware with BTC and it has one single purpose to mine BTC LDO, you can ignore the exchange rate as the only way of assessing ROI is by measuring ROI in BTC the device will produce.  ie if it produces less BTC than you spent you should have held on to the BTC as it would have netted you more profit, if it produces more BTC you've made a good purchase and netted more profit than holding.  This is what these guys are complaining about and that is why you can ignore the exchange rate.

I totally agree with both you guys - if they were charging in BTC they should honour it.  Otherwise what is the point of BTC it then might as well be called Dollar Mk 2.

Avalon has only ever accepted BTC (at least for their ASICS, not sure about their FPGA's) as payment AFAIK.

[rovchris]

Well in all fairness at least that would help support BTC - where as BFL would accept payment in minge mops if they thought they were worth anything!

[slythytove]

Aimed vaguely at a reply I can't find right now:

I know the difficulty is increasing but if they run it for a day and you run it for the rest of its/your life, is it such a biggie? Maybe your break-even gets pushed back a day or two because of that. It's gonna get pushed way further out when all the rest get delivered.

And regarding the various manufacturers collaborating on deliver times, how do you know they haven't?

FD: I have 20 chips on the way. If I get one block reward before the next halving I'll be happy. Maybe it'll find another one one day if I'm still running it and the stars align. If I do I'll probably need it!

It is a biggie to be honest - because they did not pay for them at the end of the day and technically it could be considered theft as it is your property. I have never know any company ever that test their customers products in a live situation - Do Cisco run the switches you have paid for in their Data Centres generating revenue for themselves before handing them over to you under the guise of testing? No of course they do not because they are a respectable organisation.

Unless every test is identical using the same data sets - it can not really be classed as quality controlled test can it? How would you know when you look at the results if there were discrepancies between devices if they had all used different input data - all the output data would be different and no one would be the wiser.

Anyone that has ever undertaken any software testing will tell you this.

They are just blatantly using your fully paid for device to make themselves a quick bit of cash on the side.

So not only have you provided them an interest free loan at no risk to themselves to develop the device they are then delaying shipping under the pretence of testing - when mining especially now with the rapid increases in difficulty is extremely time sensitive and every hour you do not have it  - is money you can never make due to the limited number of blocks.

The software can be tested on the test network on one machine once the unit tests and integration tests (such as they may be in this case) are done. Software Developer here I would imagine that more likely reasons for the burn-in of some or all is to test for heat issues. I see no reason to prefer the test network in this case so why no generate coins? If Yifu wanted to mine so badly he could leave a few in a corner for a month rather than mess about rotating them. I mean, if there's one thing he probably doesn't need any more of it's Bitcoins.

There may be other forces at play as well. There's no standing still in the ASIC space and Yifu will now have a better idea of the details of his next generation chip. If securing that ambition may need funds and those funds can be made from burning in machines then that would be in the interest of the community in the long-term.

CISCO wouldn't have any reason to do something similar and don't even let you read their documentation, never mind support a group-buy of their prize components and release full specs for anyone to build their own. Does Barracuda install backdoors in your security gear? Does Sony distribute rootkits? Reputation takes time and Avalon are only just shipping their first full-scale product.

So I'm happy to cut them some slack for now, especially until I see an order of magnitude jump in hash-rate. I'm sorry you're so angry about it, if you've got a lot on the line it must be stressful.

[fusion7]

FUD everywhere by people who can't do math.

1. these are not batch #1,2 or 3 units.
2. all the openWRT firmware is burnt from a single image in batches,
3. the openWRT is used in more than just production units.
4. all burn-in is 24 or more hours, you all think we seriously only would have 700+ bitcoins if they were mining? LOL
        I can't believe I'm repeating myself by saying we are not mining with batch #2 or #3 units.
5. complains will just lead into refunds, since clearly people are not happy with Avalon ASIC.
        personally I'd love to issue these refunds so these people can go find the next thing to complain about and I can get some peace n quiet.
6. I'm going back to deal with trade-in and damaged orders.

Hi BitSyncom

How would the refund work? I am actually looking to sell my batch 3 as my family in visiting my small apartment. I would rather get a refund immediately than deal with escrow and all those issues?

Thanks!

Update:
A friend from the forum "yantis" asked me to cancel the refund ticket and bought the unit from me. I cancelled the ticket and we had a successful trade. He paid in full ^_^!!

[Bitcoinorama]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=237710.msg2514804#msg2514804

[BitSyncom]

FUD everywhere by people who can't do math.

1. these are not batch #1,2 or 3 units.
2. all the openWRT firmware is burnt from a single image in batches,
3. the openWRT is used in more than just production units.
4. all burn-in is 24 or more hours, you all think we seriously only would have 700+ bitcoins if they were mining? LOL
        I can't believe I'm repeating myself by saying we are not mining with batch #2 or #3 units.
5. complains will just lead into refunds, since clearly people are not happy with Avalon ASIC.
        personally I'd love to issue these refunds so these people can go find the next thing to complain about and I can get some peace n quiet.
6. I'm going back to deal with trade-in and damaged orders.

Hi BitSyncom

How would the refund work? I am actually looking to sell my batch 3 as my family in visiting my small apartment. I would rather get a refund immediately than deal with escrow and all those issues?

Thanks!

open a ticket and pick the trouble type as REFUND.

support.avalon-asic.com

[dopamine]

I just want my machine and be able to at least get to mine 2btc for two months straight... is that wishful thinking...

[rovchris]

Aimed vaguely at a reply I can't find right now:

I know the difficulty is increasing but if they run it for a day and you run it for the rest of its/your life, is it such a biggie? Maybe your break-even gets pushed back a day or two because of that. It's gonna get pushed way further out when all the rest get delivered.

And regarding the various manufacturers collaborating on deliver times, how do you know they haven't?

FD: I have 20 chips on the way. If I get one block reward before the next halving I'll be happy. Maybe it'll find another one one day if I'm still running it and the stars align. If I do I'll probably need it!

It is a biggie to be honest - because they did not pay for them at the end of the day and technically it could be considered theft as it is your property. I have never know any company ever that test their customers products in a live situation - Do Cisco run the switches you have paid for in their Data Centres generating revenue for themselves before handing them over to you under the guise of testing? No of course they do not because they are a respectable organisation.

Unless every test is identical using the same data sets - it can not really be classed as quality controlled test can it? How would you know when you look at the results if there were discrepancies between devices if they had all used different input data - all the output data would be different and no one would be the wiser.

Anyone that has ever undertaken any software testing will tell you this.

They are just blatantly using your fully paid for device to make themselves a quick bit of cash on the side.

So not only have you provided them an interest free loan at no risk to themselves to develop the device they are then delaying shipping under the pretence of testing - when mining especially now with the rapid increases in difficulty is extremely time sensitive and every hour you do not have it  - is money you can never make due to the limited number of blocks.

The software can be tested on the test network on one machine once the unit tests and integration tests (such as they may be in this case) are done. Software Developer here I would imagine that more likely reasons for the burn-in of some or all is to test for heat issues. I see no reason to prefer the test network in this case so why no generate coins? If Yifu wanted to mine so badly he could leave a few in a corner for a month rather than mess about rotating them. I mean, if there's one thing he probably doesn't need any more of it's Bitcoins.

There may be other forces at play as well. There's no standing still in the ASIC space and Yifu will now have a better idea of the details of his next generation chip. If securing that ambition may need funds and those funds can be made from burning in machines then that would be in the interest of the community in the long-term.

CISCO wouldn't have any reason to do something similar and don't even let you read their documentation, never mind support a group-buy of their prize components and release full specs for anyone to build their own. Does Barracuda install backdoors in your security gear? Does Sony distribute rootkits? Reputation takes time and Avalon are only just shipping their first full-scale product.

So I'm happy to cut them some slack for now, especially until I see an order of magnitude jump in hash-rate. I'm sorry you're so angry about it, if you've got a lot on the line it must be stressful.

I am also a software developer with over 15 years commercial experience in financial trading systems and I have never seen a QA test run made with different sets of data - ever.

You can not just test the firmware / software on one device - the entire point of the test is to ensure the software has been correctly deployed to each machine. When software is deployed to a cluster do you only test one node or do you test them all - how would you know all files copied correctly and the configuration is correct?

"Cisco would not have reason to do anything similar" - If Cisco has no reason to do it nor do Avalon, Cisco fully test each device before it leaves to the customer - how else do you gain a reputation as good as theirs? There is more documentation on any Cisco device than there will ever be on any Avalon device as Cisco have an entire department that is dedicated to this.

The burn in excuse is not going to cut it there are numerous ways this could be achieved without creating such an uproar on this forum - It was a very bad decision on their part.

"Reputation takes time" and a great way to get a bad reputation is using your customers equipment to make money.

If he does not need any more BTC why do all this damage by testing on the live network which would then add to the difficulty increase further reducing the amount of money his customers can make. Given there are only a set number of Bitcoins you can NEVER make up that loss.

Honestly it is so unprofessional the mind boggles. The lack of public relations inside Avalon is not encouraging in any shape or form.

I have a feeling you guys are on the younger side early 20's maybe hence the reason you are happy to turn a blind eye, I have been around the block a few times and can categorically tell you it is not acceptable.

I am not angry I am just highlighting unacceptable business practises.

[fusion7]

FUD everywhere by people who can't do math.

1. these are not batch #1,2 or 3 units.
2. all the openWRT firmware is burnt from a single image in batches,
3. the openWRT is used in more than just production units.
4. all burn-in is 24 or more hours, you all think we seriously only would have 700+ bitcoins if they were mining? LOL
        I can't believe I'm repeating myself by saying we are not mining with batch #2 or #3 units.
5. complains will just lead into refunds, since clearly people are not happy with Avalon ASIC.
        personally I'd love to issue these refunds so these people can go find the next thing to complain about and I can get some peace n quiet.
6. I'm going back to deal with trade-in and damaged orders.

Hi BitSyncom

How would the refund work? I am actually looking to sell my batch 3 as my family in visiting my small apartment. I would rather get a refund immediately than deal with escrow and all those issues?

Thanks!

open a ticket and pick the trouble type as REFUND.

support.avalon-asic.com

Thanks a lot BitSyncom, I just submitted the ticket

Update:
A friend from the forum "yantis" asked me to cancel the ticket and bought the unit from me. I cancelled the ticket and we had a successful trade. He paid in full ^_^!!

[jspielberg]

I think everyone agrees, that if mainnet wanted to be used for testing/burn-in, I think Bitcentury's approach with their Bitfury service is pretty smart.

They mine against eligius with the bitcoin sender's address, and they might take a small hosting fee while this is going on. 

This is great for everyone:
1) The unit gets tested on mainnet which is where it ultimately will be used.
2) The customer feels good because
  2.1) they can see their unit is in the final stages of preparation and they know that shipment is right around the corner
  2.2) they get to earn a small amount of btc while still waiting for their machine to ship
3) Producer can earn some additional hosting fees from the customer during the testing phase
4) Lastly and probably best for newbies... it becomes truly a turnkey solution with eligius miner address already configured for customer!  Talk about customer service!

Any ASIC manufacturers out there should be learning from this experience (maybe Avalon Batch3?), as this is how you can make get a reputation as being a customer oriented bitcoin company.

[kevcoins]

They don't believe a single iota everyone wrote about them and they totally don't admit their mistakes. Now they say if you want refund let them know, so it means they don't give a shit about you and they don't plan on selling batch 4 and for their chip sales they may discontinued anytime and it all means is that   they don't need your business, Now they prefer mining and couldn't be bother with the customer service. At the end of it all, they will say thanks for funding my project with all the pre orders  

[ProfMac]

I think everyone agrees, that if mainnet wanted to be used for testing/burn-in, I think Bitcentury's approach with their Bitfury service is pretty smart.

They mine against eligius with the bitcoin sender's address, and they might take a small hosting fee while this is going on. 

This is great for everyone:
1) The unit gets tested on mainnet which is where it ultimately will be used.
2) The customer feels good because
  2.1) they can see their unit is in the final stages of preparation and they know that shipment is right around the corner
  2.2) they get to earn a small amount of btc while still waiting for their machine to ship
3) Producer can earn some additional hosting fees from the customer during the testing phase
4) Lastly and probably best for newbies... it becomes truly a turnkey solution with eligius miner address already configured for customer!  Talk about customer service!

Any ASIC manufacturers out there should be learning from this experience (maybe Avalon Batch3?), as this is how you can make get a reputation as being a customer oriented bitcoin company.

I think this is good policy.

[demkd]

6. I'm going back to deal with trade-in and damaged orders.

It's good what you focus on important matter.

But PLEASE don't forget about FIRST problem happens in Feb - tickets with "Order not appearing in Store" some amount of customers waiting for resolving this issue for MONTHS, and new tickets seems ignored again so You seems don't have enough time to confirm what our orders (yes, including my order) really exists and our coins not just... disappeared? It's really take more than 1 minute per customer?  

You know, such a small problem REALLY worry me like another customers of 2nd batch with BLANK order page on Avalon Store.
And now this "burning?" thing come out, with continuous delays in shipping It really pissed me.

I think you underestimated proper customer service, proper customer service calm down people and at end save your time, its cost penny but if you don't know how to do proper customer service it's resulting in money loss and what really a matter in HUGE reputation loss.

Please reconsider.

[Vicus]

1. these are not batch #1,2 or 3 units.

So if it is not regular batch, what it is then?

2. all the openWRT firmware is burnt from a single image in batches,
3. the openWRT is used in more than just production units.

If you used one master image, then please explain, why two arrived units has different pool configs?

4. all burn-in is 24 or more hours, you all think we seriously only would have 700+ bitcoins if they were mining? LOL

24h burn-in is ok. But we talking not just about this 700+ BTC... Can you reveal ozco.in accounts income?

        I can't believe I'm repeating myself by saying we are not mining with batch #2 or #3 units.

You repeated this before with no exceptions. Now we know, at least burn-in was made on main net... Why this is not the same for you? Can you explain earlier that you do burn-ins on main net?
 
Besides that, don't you think, that money earned on "burn-ins" should be managed in special way? For example donate for child charity?

[Hippie Tech]

Thats BS coinedBit. The world would be freakin awesome without greed because NO ONE WILL WANT TO EXPLOIT YOU.

We must rid ourselves from that greed mongering mentality. A fair and just environment is what Satoshi had in mind when he/they first began to code Bitcoin. Asics and $100/BTC caused most of us to forget.

I think you will be sorely disappointed when you receive a 0.65BTC refund per machine for the coins that Avalon "stole" from mainnet

(780 BTC / 1200 miners ≃ 0.65 BTC/miner)

Keep dreaming..

The amount of BTC scammed is staggering when the coins used to buy these pre-orders are added. 100,000 ?? 500,000 ??

Maybe.

I'm basing my assumption on what proof I have (admittedly, it's not much), but if I were you I wouldn't get worked up on ideas not backed by facts, It won't do you any good. if you think they have scammed so much, search the blockchain, maybe you will come up with something relevant.

Ooops.. I meant any pre-order paid to any company. We should also tack on a (10.. 50.. 100,000BTC ??) guesstimate for all Thash/s that were taken offline when all the trade ins were gobbled up.

I can know this is a huge scandal, without having to spend time on the blockchain to know it. The rounds of "Problem, Reaction, Solution" are clearly seen when you look back at the way the Crypto movement has been, and continues to be, manipulated.

Thank you David Icke. Long live David Icke !!

[BenTuras]

Software developer here too.

Given the different difficulty of test net compared to main net, one has to run on the main net to be sure that the customer will not receive a malfunctioning unit. (And yes, I have looked at the Cgminer source code to see how the validation of a block works if the hash is calculated on a CPU, so I know what I am talking about).

I am sure Yifu will come up with a proper destination for the BTC generated, he is not in it for the money, remember ?

And to make the picture complete, I own Avalon units.

[kaerf]

FUD everywhere by people who can't do math.

1. these are not batch #1,2 or 3 units.
2. all the openWRT firmware is burnt from a single image in batches,
3. the openWRT is used in more than just production units.
4. all burn-in is 24 or more hours, you all think we seriously only would have 700+ bitcoins if they were mining? LOL
        I can't believe I'm repeating myself by saying we are not mining with batch #2 or #3 units.
5. complains will just lead into refunds, since clearly people are not happy with Avalon ASIC.
        personally I'd love to issue these refunds so these people can go find the next thing to complain about and I can get some peace n quiet.
6. I'm going back to deal with trade-in and damaged orders.

Hi BitSyncom

How would the refund work? I am actually looking to sell my batch 3 as my family in visiting my small apartment. I would rather get a refund immediately than deal with escrow and all those issues?

Thanks!

open a ticket and pick the trouble type as REFUND.

support.avalon-asic.com

Yifu, are you refunding BTC paid or USD equivalent? thanks.

[Matthew N. Wright]

FUD everywhere by people who can't do math.

1. these are not batch #1,2 or 3 units.
2. all the openWRT firmware is burnt from a single image in batches,
3. the openWRT is used in more than just production units.
4. all burn-in is 24 or more hours, you all think we seriously only would have 700+ bitcoins if they were mining? LOL
        I can't believe I'm repeating myself by saying we are not mining with batch #2 or #3 units.
5. complains will just lead into refunds, since clearly people are not happy with Avalon ASIC.
        personally I'd love to issue these refunds so these people can go find the next thing to complain about and I can get some peace n quiet.
6. I'm going back to deal with trade-in and damaged orders.

Hi BitSyncom

How would the refund work? I am actually looking to sell my batch 3 as my family in visiting my small apartment. I would rather get a refund immediately than deal with escrow and all those issues?

Thanks!

open a ticket and pick the trouble type as REFUND.

support.avalon-asic.com

Yifu, are you refunding BTC paid or USD equivalent? thanks.

I bet they refund the day after everyone else's ships

[SRoulette]

1. these are not batch #1,2 or 3 units.

So if it is not regular batch, what it is then?

2. all the openWRT firmware is burnt from a single image in batches,
3. the openWRT is used in more than just production units.

If you used one master image, then please explain, why two arrived units has different pool configs?

4. all burn-in is 24 or more hours, you all think we seriously only would have 700+ bitcoins if they were mining? LOL

24h burn-in is ok. But we talking not just about this 700+ BTC... Can you reveal ozco.in accounts income?

        I can't believe I'm repeating myself by saying we are not mining with batch #2 or #3 units.

You repeated this before with no exceptions. Now we know, at least burn-in was made on main net... Why this is not the same for you? Can you explain earlier that you do burn-ins on main net?
 
Besides that, don't you think, that money earned on "burn-ins" should be managed in special way? For example donate for child charity?