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Author Topic: ATTENTION! To all Mtgox creditors  (Read 850 times)
eftrading
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November 09, 2017, 08:53:07 AM
#1

After nine creditors meeting we still don't have any concrete answer on Mtgox Bitcoin destiny.
I'm constantly looking for updates on the internet and I finally found 2 website

https://mtgoxprotest.com
https://mtgoxlegal.com

these websites are managed by 2 creditors that are in Japan and are trying to figure out what's going on:
unfortunately this is what we as creditors are risking now (from www.mtgoxlegal.com)

"The Bankruptcy Trustee has valued BTC claims at the market price at the time of bankruptcy. In the last few months the value has increased to around 10 times that historic value. As a result the bankruptcy trustee now controls more assets than liabilities.

The trustee proposes to give the excess value to shareholders, (i.e. the people who were in charge when the bankruptcy occurred,) and give BTC creditors less than a tenth of what the Bitcoins they lost are worth."


Kolin Burges of https://mtgoxprotest.com is creating a Creditorsí Committee;
Andy Pag (aka Andrew Pagnacco) of https://mtgoxlegal.com is coordinating a legal action to stop the $1,000,000,000
surplus going to the people responsible for the exchange when it was hacked, and instead have it shared among creditors who were
victims of crime.

I've recently joined them and I'm here to ask to all Mtgox creditors to join us because we risk to see just 473$ per Bitcoin claimed
that's the 15% of the actual value around 7200$.

From mtgoxlegal:
We are over 500 creditors. We have raised $30,000 to cover all legal fees in just 6 days.  We represent an estimated claim size of over 60kBTC, making us the second largest body of creditors. Weíve hired a lawyer from a top-4 Japanese law firm. We have a paid administrator employed by this group and a team of 10 volunteers. And we are growing.

If you are a BTC creditor, please join us to share the legal advice provided by our lawyer and the research work weíve share among members

I ask to everybody to kindly share this: we need to be much more as possible to have a leverage on the court.
I'm available to answer to any kind of question on the matter.
Thanks for your attention.
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eftrading
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November 09, 2017, 06:03:15 PM
#2

I will post all the www.mtgoxlegal.com updates. If you are an Mtgox creditor and want all the informations on the matter
don't hesitate in contacting me or www.mtgoxlegal.com administrator Andy Pag

Update: Lawyer choice and fundraising 9-Oct-17

Lawyer Iíve contacted four lawyers in Japan, and narrowed the selection to one.

Iím in negotiations with Mugi Sekido, a respected Japanese bankruptcy lawyer at MHM Japan. Iíts one of the big four Japanese law firms. You can see the email exchange Iíve had with him at the google group mtgox-creditors@googlegroups.com, in an email entitled Negotiations with Sekido.

His rate is 47,000yen/hour, and he has agreed to cap it at $30,000. He is also asking for an uncapped success fee of 2.5% of any increased pay out over 50,058Yen/BTC.

I have asked him to consider a 2% success fee, and requested there must also be a clear link between increased payout and his intervention.

I have also recommended that we start by providing a retainer of up to ~$10,000 for research work to develop a plan/strategy. Once we have obtained that, we as creditors can review it before proceeding to make up the rest of the $30k retainer, which will include the cost of taking action and litigation.

Iím expecting to hear back from him this week. As soon as we have agreed terms I will start fundraising.
Fundraising

Fundraising will happen through this website. It will be by credit/debit card using a stripe account I have set up expressly for this task.

The first target is to raise the $10k (plus transaction fees). Initially I am asking for a flat fee of $100 from each creditor who wants to be involved. This is a small enough that I hope everyone can afford it, and with just 100 creditors we can reach the target. It represents great value for dedicated legal advice.

If further funds are needed, then we will look at a fairer way of asking for those funds. This might be a pro-rata based on the size of claims, or might again be a tiered fee fee.

Why not do it all pro-rata? Because someone has to verify all claims sizes, and this takes time and effort to do. If you want to volunteer that time, let me know. Also there is an issue of creditors sharing their information which makes this problematic. Even if we do calculate a price pro-rata, then someone decides to opt out, we have to recalculate everyoneís share. Itís hours of work, so for now, itís a flat fee. I appreciate itís less fair on very small creditors, but thatís why itís only $100. If you can think of a better way, then do it.

Whatís to stop creditors sitting on their pockets and benefiting from others who contribute? Firstly, the advice and information provided by the lawyer will only be shared with creditors who contribute financially. Secondly action taken by the lawyer will be done in the name of creditors who contribute. While itís possible that that action will benefit all creditors, itís also possible that the lawyer will find a way to enhance the claims he is representing. We donít know yet, but if that second scenario is the case, then we will instruct ďourĒ lawyer to act on ďourĒ behalf, and we are not obliged to declare it to other creditors. Other large creditors have already done this and currently stand to benefit from the advantage their legal representation has given them.

However thatís not the intention. The hope is that many creditors will be involved in this initiative, and it will benefit them all. It is open to all creditors to join at this stage.
Paranuatu
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November 09, 2017, 07:47:55 PM
#3

But what if it was the opposite, bitcoin today worth 0. People would be happy taking th 470.

I missed the BTC train Sad donate bitcents: BTC:1CWpbYGZVmC14zqLgNmnU8R8CbM9dbx4CY ETH:0x546A87681f70929634236Ad243AE4722A5CbDcC6
eftrading
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November 09, 2017, 09:00:47 PM
#4

Come on Paranuatu, let's talk of something concrete: bitcoins are a reality, are worth more than gold...!!
We are the creditors, we sent a value to mtgox (bitcoins or fiat currency) and those money belong to us...

I really hope you understand that... this is a serious matter, there are people with a lot of moneys involved...
and people with less money and part of savings there, is not a joke!
Thanks...
Paranuatu
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November 09, 2017, 09:59:10 PM
#5

Come on Paranuatu, let's talk of something concrete: bitcoins are a reality, are worth more than gold...!!
We are the creditors, we sent a value to mtgox (bitcoins or fiat currency) and those money belong to us...

I really hope you understand that... this is a serious matter, there are people with a lot of moneys involved...
and people with less money and part of savings there, is not a joke!
Thanks...
I understand, I would also want to be paid in itcoins of course.
I just don't know how these things work, if the claimes were filed in fiat or bitcoin.
But its true if it was the opposite.

I missed the BTC train Sad donate bitcents: BTC:1CWpbYGZVmC14zqLgNmnU8R8CbM9dbx4CY ETH:0x546A87681f70929634236Ad243AE4722A5CbDcC6
eftrading
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November 10, 2017, 08:23:16 AM
#6

The problem is between creditors and shareolders: they both want something.
We have to see what japan laws says on that... and who has the best lawyer
and much more money to put in the matter.
Claims was made in bitcoins and fiat as well as some people had both of them,
I had just bitcoins and I claimed just that.
eftrading
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November 10, 2017, 11:40:12 AM
#7

Not All Creditors Are The Same Ė 10 Oct 17

Keep in mind that not all creditors have the same motivations.

Fiat creditors are unaffected by the fluctuating BTC price, as long as it stays above a level which gives them a 100% payout. Their motivation more than anything, I assume, is to get this resolved quickly.

I understand that some BTC creditors that took legal advice at the start filed bankruptcy claims against Tibanne and Mark, as well as Mt Gox before the deadline for it closed. This means that if ďsurplusĒ flows to shareholders in stead of creditors, they stand to get a triple payout. Obviously this motivates them to inhibit our efforts.

Because Tibanne and Mark are both bankrupt, they are legally protected from law suits, other than claims made to their bankruptcy trustee. Failing that they can be sued when the bankruptcy is all over if they are sitting on a settlement and worth going after, but at that point we may be fighting for slim pickings.

Those with larger claims might bet on smaller creditors dropping-out of the pool if the only way to recoup money is by launching a law suit against Tibanne and Mark after money has been paid to shareholders, leaving them with a larger slice of the pie. A co-operative of smaller claimants with legal representation would dissuade them against this.

And even among BTC creditors who have approved claims solely against Mt Gox, some are happy to wait if it means a better chance at a larger payout, while others just want it all to be over.

Full disclosure: I only have a claim filed against Mt.Gox, for around 100BTC. The information here is my opinion and should not be considered legal advice; only a lawyer can provide that, and if you donít have one, you should consider getting one: why not contribute to our shared lawyer? We start collecting contributions as soon as terms are agreed with him, (hopefully) by the end of this week.
eftrading
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November 10, 2017, 02:53:40 PM
#8

Creditors Committee Ė 11 Oct 17

Bitcoin Builder has engaged a lawyer that is looking at establishing a Creditors Committee. This is a committee that can to some limited degree call the Trustee to account. They cannot dictate terms, but they can make their feelings clear to him, and suggest actions, and if necessary call him to the Tokyo court to challenge his decisions.

Apparently even though Japanese law allows for a Creditors Committee, itís never been done before. It requires a majority of creditors to agree. We are looking at the details of how this consensus has to be proven to the court, however we may have access to email addresses from all creditors, so gaining and demonstrating that consensus is not an impossibility.

If we have a creditors committee we can call the Trustee to be more transparent and accountable, as well as challenging his decisions. It doesnít mean that we can over-rule his decisions, but it will be a powerful tool to oppose his current plan of action.

Here is the information provided by Bitcoin Builderís lawyer to the Google group.

           Ē What the creditors committee can do other than calling for a creditors meeting: the creditors committee may state its opinions to the court or a bankruptcy trustee in bankruptcy proceedings (see Art 144 of the Law). A bankruptcy trustee is required to hear opinions of the creditors committee with regard to the matters concerning the administration and disposition of property that belongs to the bankruptcy estate (see Art 145 of the Law).
    Regarding how to set up (ii) the creditors committee, here is the requirement.
    (a) The number of committee members is not less than three and not more than ten.
    (b) It is found that the majority of bankruptcy creditors consent to the committeeís participation in bankruptcy proceedings.
    (c) It is found that the committee will properly represent the interest of bankruptcy creditors as a whole.
    Thus, what need to be done first to set up a creditorís committee is to contact bankruptcy creditors and get proxy from majority of them.Ē

The next step is to get clear understanding of what the court requires as proof that a majority of creditors agrees to a committee being established, and a team, of three-10, creditors, representing different claim sizes, volunteer to be on the committee.
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November 10, 2017, 08:21:27 PM
#9

But what if it was the opposite, bitcoin today worth 0. People would be happy taking th 470.

That's not the way it works, they still have the 202,000 Bitcoin.

If Bitcoin went to zero or even a few hundred dollars then we would get pretty much nothing at all because they have sold nothing.

If Bitcoin goes lower than $2400 per coin which is the 'breakeven point' at the original claim value of $480 per coin then we will get less than our original claim amount back.

If bitcoin went to $1200 then we would expect only around $240 per coin.

So we have (or had) everything to lose at the time and the trustee kept hold of the Coins exposing us to risk, once he had enough instead of selling the coins and paying us he decided to keep them and enrich the owners of the company on our claim assets.

Bringing MtGox out of bankrupty into Civil Rehabilitation appears to be a good way to address this imbalance.
pawel7777
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November 10, 2017, 10:34:17 PM
#10

Related:

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/mark-karpeles-will-end-taking-859-million-mt-gox-bankruptcy/

If this shit is true, karpeles will be rewarded $0.86 billion worth of btc and could crash the market.

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eftrading
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November 11, 2017, 03:06:14 PM
#11

That's the problem. Well is not so fair for creditors. Let see how that will proceed.
eftrading
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November 14, 2017, 07:56:23 PM
#12

We've reached $10k

We currently have 105 creditors who have contributed, so have made the target we need for tier 1 Ė Research.

I originally said Iím going to leave funding open for a week and review it then. Iím going to stick to that for now for two reasons.

Firstly because there will be more funding needed later and any more that comes in will go towards making that second round easier. Also the more people invested in the group the lighter the fundraising burden on each one for the next round.

Secondly, I donít want this to be an exclusive opportunity for just some creditors, leaving others out in the cold. Thereís been enough vested interests working quietly behind closed doors in this saga. Giving people just a 24 hour window to get involved seems unfair.

Iíve written to Sekido this morning to tell him that we have his fee. Iíve sent him my ID. (At this stage mine is the only ID he needs), and asked him to send me the customer contract.

If we get close to hitting $30,000 before the end of the week, I will review again if we should close up or continue. Please put your thoughts on this in the google group. Personally I think a Public Advocacy fund might prove to be very helpful. And Iíd like there to be a way for people who only find out about this initiative at some point in the future to not be prevented from joining.

The money raised with Stripe will be available to withdraw to the dedicated bank account in one week, (I will add the 2 paypal contributions to it), and then will take about a week to transfer to Japan. Iíll use Transferwise to get the best rate.

Iím removing the paypal link, because for some reason it doesnít work, and secondly I want to keep money for this separate from my own personal accounts. If for some reason youíre desperate to pay by paypal you can email me explaining why, and we can find a way to do it.

Several people have commented how ridiculous it is not to be collecting money via BTC. I agree, but the price fluctuation make it challenging, along with AML laws, and my personal tax liabilities if Iím handling it. So for that reason I havenít done it. If anyone else wantís to volunteer to organise it Iím happy to co-ordinate with them.

Thanks everyone for contributing. Iím really glad weíre making this happen.
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November 16, 2017, 03:27:20 PM
#13

Commissioning letter to Sekido, and other news

Iíve written a draft letter highlighting questions, information, and legal approaches raised in the Google group. Iím not going to publish it here in public, but it is now in the Google Group. Title ďCommissioning Letter to SekidoĒ. Please comment on it so I can make sure all valid points are considered.

The IT volunteers, Ben, Neil and Hideki (big thanks to them), are in the process of building a user-friendly and more organised forum for discussion and information sharing for creditors that have contributed. More details on how to log on shortly.

I will continue to manage the Google group as well, but in fairness to those that have contributed, I will not be contributing information and expertise picked up from interactions with the lawyer in the Google group.

A few people have emailed me privately and asked me to keep the window for contributions open until the end of this month to cover their pay day. This seems like a fair request. The rate of contributions has dropped off but we are moving up the totaliser. As previously stated, I will review the situation and give a financial update at the end of this week. (Friday, or the weekend).
eftrading
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November 28, 2017, 08:45:10 AM
#14

The Forum October 19, 2017

Tomorrow weíll be opening the Forum. This is the area where all the legal information provided by our lawyer will be shared. Weíre also looking at how to establish a creditors committee and thereís a thread for that.

Iím uploading the accounts there too, and a request for volunteers to form a governance board. This is really important to help me all be more transparent.

A massive thanks to Bkava, Samson and Hideki who have done an amazing job putting it all together. Several late nights and early morning.

Confirmations will go out tomorrow to the email addresses you used when paying with Stripe. If you donít receive one by the end of Friday, then email me with your credit card transaction details.

Iíve now removed correspondences to Sekido from this public site. If any prospective contributor wants to scrutinise them before making committing to join the group then please email me also.
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November 28, 2017, 09:49:09 AM
#15

We reached $30k in six days! October 19, 2017

Good news. Weíve now hit the target of $30k. Itís an amazing job in under a week. I think above all it shows how important this is to a lot of people.
We have: £22,598,56 in card takings, and £768.45 paid to me on Paypal.
£23,3367.01 in total.
Sekidoís invoice has arrived, and thereís no mention of tax on it so the extra 8% is not a worry.
I will send the first $10k payment to him tomorrow as soon as the funds transfer into my account from stripe.
Continuing membership
I think itís a bad idea to close down continued membership of the group. In a posting on his website, Kolin Burgess (www.mtgoxprotest.com) has said he only partially supports what we are doing because of the exclusivity around it. It think thatís a fair comment and in an ideal world now that we have enough to pay the lawyer, my aim would be to make this free to others, with perhaps a nominal admin fee to cover costs.
Thereís a few problems with that. 1/ This might seem unfair to those that have already paid, and wasnít the terms they agreed to contribute to. Secondly it would be foolish for me to leave this without a reserve of fund to help with expenses on the horizon as things develop, (US law suit for BTCe, Lobbying in japan, but moreover, some admin to establish the creditors committee) so I would like us to build up a small reserve of funds, to cover future expenses.
Then thereís also the question of covering my time. Thanks for your responses on that question. I think thereís an overwhelming support for me to be paid, with a few caveats, so let me address my thoughts on those caveats now:
Thereís a sense that this shouldnít be a recurring payment. OK, Iím fine with that, but it will need to recur as long as Iím working on it. Thereís also a question about the size of it. Thatís my rate for my time and I have no problems getting other work so itís not negotiable. If this was an initiative to help the hungry and homeless, then I would consider lowering my living standards to help, but itís a long way from that.
Others have suggested a fee to cover my time should be raised seperately. Iím fine with that, but Iím not investing time into doing that, so if someone wants to take the reins, whatever they raise can come off the what Iím paid from the fund.
The website says, that any sums collected over the necessary, would be refunded pro-rata or put to an agreed use to help the furtherance of our objectives, and I think paying me for time fits within that. It feels uncomfortable for me as this started as a project I thought Iíd sink my teeth into to get it rolling for a few days. If anyone has any strong reservations then contact me and weíll think of a way to refund your investments. I will update the website now to make it clearly explicit for newcomers.
Finally thereís the issue of the management fee for the IT team. It wasnít my suggestion and those that want to can make the case for it, however I think itís disappointing that if this initiative brings people an extra £1000, they wouldnít feel it fair to thank the people who started it with £1!
The website says, that any sums collected over the necessary, would be refunded pro-rata or put to an agreed use to help the furtherance of our objectives, and I think paying me for time fits within that. It feels uncomfortable for me that this has turned into a financial arrangement, as this started as a project I thought Iíd sink my teeth into to get it rolling for a few days and didnít expect more from it Ė Originally I was going to bankroll the lawyer and invite contributions. If anyone has any strong reservations how itís turned out then contact me and weíll think of a way to refund your investments.
So for those reasons I think we should leave the door open, and maintain the contributor fee for now, until we have Sekidoís advice back and review the situation based on that. (E.g. If we need sizeable membership to prove authority to the court.)
Governance.
I think itís time that we had a proper governance board. So far it has been Ben, Samson and Hideki who I have referred to who have acted as councillors, as well as IT team. I think itís time we did this in a more transparent way. So my suggestion is that once we are able to log into the secure forum, then Iíd like 2-3 volunteers to put themselves forward and make their true identities known to that group, in a way like Iíve done, and they can then act as governance board that I report to and who audit my actions and accounts. This will also create a structure in which I can be replaced if I canít go on, or itís decided Iím doing it badly.
I know people in the close team have some alternative suggestions too. Iíll let them raise them if they feel itís necessary.
Creditors committee.
This is a top priority in my view. Iím now confident we will be able to use a really well suited email list, and I think Sekidoís first job is to ascertain from the court a procedure that they deem acceptable so we can contact as many creditors as possible and get them to give consent to the court in an easy way.
Kolin Burgess and others are also already working on this, and I spoke to them about how we can bring our groupís strengths to support the plan. I think our strengths are this email list, and the potential energy of this lawyer to sniff out a way to get the court to approve a methodology. Iím speaking to a few people about who could be on the creditors committee. We can discuss this in the forum and here. Kolin has another great suggestion: that the committee should devise a manifesto which lays out the philosophy of the outcome weíre aiming for. Sounds simple, but thereís actually a lot of thought needs to go into ti. More about that in another email. I want to get this email out to you all for now to say congratulations on hitting the 30k. We have a lawyer.
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November 29, 2017, 08:00:21 AM
#16

Accountability update. October 22, 2017

Just over a week ago, I told everyone that for all the psuedo-accountability I was presenting, in the end it just came down to having to trust me.

Well Iím working on changing that this week, so things wonít have to rely on just trust anymore.
Accounting

Already we have a volunteer bookkeeper, yyy. A big thanks to him for volunteering. The IT team (now on with their own email address: support@mtgoxlegal.com) have arranged for the stripe income report to be emailed automatically to YYY every week. Iíll provide him with receipts for outgoings, and an update on paypal income manually. (Thatís another reason why Iím trying to avoid Paypal contributions). Heíll provide a monthly update of how the finances are looking and reconcile it with the balance of accounts to make sure itís all where it should be.
Governance

Next, I want to set up a Governance Board, a bit like a Board of Directors, if I were an MD. They will have the power to hold me to account, question my decisions, and replace me if needed. I can share sensitive information with them when itís in everybodyís interest that that information is kept temporarily secret. This protects me from being accused of keeping information for my own benefit.

They will also review, and approve me carrying on being paid each month, for the next three months.

Exactly how we will work is open to suggestions from them. Perhaps a weekly skype conference call, and published minutes for the whole group to read. Perhaps they have other suggestions.

When we have a few candidates volunteering here Iíll ask them to give a biog, an outline of their claim size, and suggestions on how they would like to run the Governance board, and then contributors will vote to select 3-5 people. We already have some good candidates, but I urge others to get involved. For instance so far I think the list is all male volunteers, which I think is a weakness.

To some this may seem a little over-complicated. But itís important for two reasons: firstly to build trust in the decisions we are taking, and secondly so we have authority when I (or whoever is representing us) is negotiating on our behalf to the court, or with other vested interests.
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November 29, 2017, 08:26:29 AM
#17

New Terms Ė Updated 22/Nov/17 October 25, 2017

What are you paying for?

You are essentially donating to a fund for legal action.

Weíve already raised the full amount needed to pay the lawyer to research, and proceed to the next step.

Everyone has already put in ~$100 (actually £85), and rather than close the group when we reached the target for the lawyers fee, weíve decided to keep it open so otherís can join us.

The money we raised since then will be used to further the groupís aims. Weíve already put some of the surplus towards creating a part-time role for an administrator and voted Andy in to the job. We have volunteer IT teams, Data & Analysis teams, and a bookkeeper. Weíve created a governance board elected by the group to oversee all these activities. Weíre also reaching out to support other legal actions that further our aim of fairer distribution.
How are we paying this?

Everyone chips in £85 (~$100) using this online payment system.

We havenít had enough demand to create a bitcoin payment system. If youíre ready to pay with BTC please request it at mtgox-creditors@googlegroups.com. But we need 12 people to make it worthwhile and so far only 3 have asked.

If you donít have a card and are really desperate to pay another way, you can contact the administrator and arrange to contribute by Paypal.
Deadline

Making a donation to join the group is currently our only way to verify people who want to join are Mt Gox Creditors. Itís crude, and itís a barrier to entry, so itís not an ideal solution. Weíre working on a verification solution. In the near future conditions for entering the group may change.

You can now contribute here.
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November 29, 2017, 08:41:49 AM
#18

New Terms Ė Updated 22/Nov/17 October 25, 2017

What are you paying for?

You are essentially donating to a fund for legal action.

Weíve already raised the full amount needed to pay the lawyer to research, and proceed to the next step.

Everyone has already put in ~$100 (actually £85), and rather than close the group when we reached the target for the lawyers fee, weíve decided to keep it open so otherís can join us.

The money we raised since then will be used to further the groupís aims. Weíve already put some of the surplus towards creating a part-time role for an administrator and voted Andy in to the job. We have volunteer IT teams, Data & Analysis teams, and a bookkeeper. Weíve created a governance board elected by the group to oversee all these activities. Weíre also reaching out to support other legal actions that further our aim of fairer distribution.
How are we paying this?

Everyone chips in £85 (~$100) using this online payment system.

We havenít had enough demand to create a bitcoin payment system. If youíre ready to pay with BTC please request it at mtgox-creditors@googlegroups.com. But we need 12 people to make it worthwhile and so far only 3 have asked.

If you donít have a card and are really desperate to pay another way, you can contact the administrator and arrange to contribute by Paypal.
Deadline

Making a donation to join the group is currently our only way to verify people who want to join are Mt Gox Creditors. Itís crude, and itís a barrier to entry, so itís not an ideal solution. Weíre working on a verification solution. In the near future conditions for entering the group may change.

You can now contribute here.


Why would we donate for legal action for an ongoing legal action?
Japanese law says that the value had to be set, it was set at $470 or whatever it was, so that is what it will be.

It sounds like you are trying to scam people by getting them to 'chip in' $100, a significant amount of money to an unknown internet entity. I'll leave it to the law thanks!

Most people knew what they were getting into with Gox, it spiralled for a year before going under. I am only due 0.5BTC, but will just have to wait until the trial is over, then I'll find out what they decide, just like everyone else.
edward222
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November 29, 2017, 08:43:18 AM
#19

anyone knows something about my time coin project? need some information
naglas
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November 29, 2017, 08:46:57 AM
#20

anyone knows something about my time coin project? need some information
i think that is a good project, could be useful
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