The myth of 21 million coins

[adpinbr]

if one bitcoin more than 21 million is produced the market cap of all bitcoins will be 0

[tinus42]

I can start my own cryptocurrency with its own genesis block at any time - let's call it Spitcoin, say - but that doesn't make it an expansion to the bitcoin money supply, any more than if you take rocks from your back yard, paint them yellow and call them "gald"...

ROFLOL! 

[Bitcoin Roll]

This may help clear things up regarding 21 million coins; under subtitles:
'21 million coins isn't enough; doesn't scale' 
'After 21 million coins are mined, no one will generate new blocks'

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#21_million_coins_isn.27t_enough.3B_doesn.27t_scale

[AliceWonder]

Wont it be in the year 2150 that we reach the 21 million mark? We will all likely be dead, so who cares?

This

[Mylon]

3 - Alt-coins =\= BTC

Yes I agree, again.  But you can make coins that are very similar in nature to bitcoin. 

What I'm getting at is that there are ways to increase crypt coin creation and usage as part of the overall economy, and whichever route taken will impact the prices significantly.

This is what you're doing:

1. Make sensationalist claim ("all dogs are birds")
2. Attempt vaguely to try to defend it ("b-b-but dogs breathe and eat too, just like birds!")
3. Once people attack your claim, backtrack to trivial claim ("fine, all dogs are animals")


...and everyone fell for the bait. bravo.

Nothing more to add

[melvster]

Its not a myth, its wrote in the script of bitcoin only 21 million can ever be created. The devs arent just going to raise the limit when they feel like it, it would have to be a consensus from the majority of Bitcoin users.

Yes but it's just a parameter.  Parameters can change, at least in theory, in the future.  Parameters HAVE changed, e.g. the default dust size.

So it's correct to say that we are currently scheduled to have 21 million coins, right now.

NOT that there will never be more than 21 million coins in the future.  The final number of coins will be decided by consensus.

[farlack]

There are like 608 sites now that offer bitcoin coupons.

What's to stop one of these from just making coupons... Kind of like how the feds do it. Its always backed by coin, but if everyone pulls out there wont be enough.

[melvster]

There are like 608 sites now that offer bitcoin coupons.

What's to stop one of these from just making coupons... Kind of like how the feds do it. Its always backed by coin, but if everyone pulls out there wont be enough.

Sure, that's called a "short squeeze".  But you can settle in cash.  So instead of me giving you your 10 coins i could give you say $1200

[farlack]

There are like 608 sites now that offer bitcoin coupons.

What's to stop one of these from just making coupons... Kind of like how the feds do it. Its always backed by coin, but if everyone pulls out there wont be enough.

Sure, that's called a "short squeeze".  But you can settle in cash.  So instead of me giving you your 10 coins i could give you say $1200

No that's called an IOU, like printing money only generating it.

[melvster]

There are like 608 sites now that offer bitcoin coupons.

What's to stop one of these from just making coupons... Kind of like how the feds do it. Its always backed by coin, but if everyone pulls out there wont be enough.

Sure, that's called a "short squeeze".  But you can settle in cash.  So instead of me giving you your 10 coins i could give you say $1200

No that's called an IOU, like printing money only generating it.

Exactly yes.  So a trusted third party can lever up the money supply using IOUs.

The short squeeze occurs if they dont have enough bitcoins to pay all the IOUs.  But that's exactly how the current system works with fractional reserve banking.

[dhenson]

nothing to see here, move along.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Re 2) above: promises for gold, say, aren't as good as actual gold. Which would you prefer? The only reason the fiat and promissory systems have been able to develop as they have is that gold and silver are a pain to carry about.

I can start my own cryptocurrency with its own genesis block at any time - let's call it Spitcoin, say - but that doesn't make it an expansion to the bitcoin money supply, any more than if you take rocks from your back yard, paint them yellow and call them "gald"...

This is true, but look how gold is traded.  Promises for gold are 10+ times more numerous than the actual physical gold supply.

It wouldn't be if there were a blockchain for gold.

[melvster]

Re 2) above: promises for gold, say, aren't as good as actual gold. Which would you prefer? The only reason the fiat and promissory systems have been able to develop as they have is that gold and silver are a pain to carry about.

I can start my own cryptocurrency with its own genesis block at any time - let's call it Spitcoin, say - but that doesn't make it an expansion to the bitcoin money supply, any more than if you take rocks from your back yard, paint them yellow and call them "gald"...

This is true, but look how gold is traded.  Promises for gold are 10+ times more numerous than the actual physical gold supply.

It wouldn't be if there were a blockchain for gold.

Perhaps, though it's hard to conceive of even what a block chain for gold might mean.

There's three good reasons to make transactions "off block"

1) Translate your trust into new money

2) You dont have to pay the tx fee, so this allows high volume

3) Instant confirms are possible

[adpinbr]

There are like 608 sites now that offer bitcoin coupons.

What's to stop one of these from just making coupons... Kind of like how the feds do it. Its always backed by coin, but if everyone pulls out there wont be enough.

Sure, that's called a "short squeeze".  But you can settle in cash.  So instead of me giving you your 10 coins i could give you say $1200

No that's called an IOU, like printing money only generating it.

Exactly yes.  So a trusted third party can lever up the money supply using IOUs.

The short squeeze occurs if they dont have enough bitcoins to pay all the IOUs.  But that's exactly how the current system works with fractional reserve banking.

People got suckered into letting the state hold their gold in return to a gold backed IOU because gold was not divisible into small units and was heavy, then they came in and said "said sorry our bad rather than 28$ being worth an ounce of gold its 35 now" and people sheeply agreed. Then they pushed it further and said "hey we changed our minds.....yea there is no gold behind your money, just trust us its necessary for the economy to thrive, bartering for something that can't be manipulated by us will stunt the economy" And thats how we got off the gold standard.

The reason this wont happen with BTC (besides the fact that we are wiser this time) is that there is no major benefit in trading BTC for a token representing BTC , as the BTC is already easy to carry, send and divide, contrary to gold. In the case that a BTC token system were to be implemented in order to circumvent blockchain problems, the low barriers to entry of competing token systems, and the ability to return to the system the token is backed by with ease (bitcoins) would result in the token system always being highly competitive by nature in order to be adopted by the community. In other words we would agree to use a token system that cancelled transaction fees, but would disagree if it started issuing loans with our BTC; in the case that the system did something we didnt like it would fail (unlike the dollar, you cant decide to not accept the dollar as legal tender, or go and compete with the dollar

[bluemeanie1]

3) Alt coins could become very similar to BTC, and can be easily created

This is precisely why BTC has ZERO INTRINSIC VALUE.

people often say that BTC is valuable because I can transfer and spend it in ways that other currencies don't offer, however nothing is preventing me from making an ALTCHAIN and providing this same exact intrinsic value for presumably any price.

[adpinbr]

At the beginning I let it slide, but enough is enough, people have had enough time to analyze bitcoin. If you dont understand why bitcoin is valuable you are a retard

[dhenson]

3) Alt coins could become very similar to BTC, and can be easily created

This is precisely why BTC has ZERO INTRINSIC VALUE.

people often say that BTC is valuable because I can transfer and spend it in ways that other currencies don't offer, however nothing is preventing me from making an ALTCHAIN and providing this same exact intrinsic value for presumably any price.

I am going to assume this isn't a troll and hopefully make this clear and easy to understand.

Bitcoin has value compared to other Crypto-currencies because of the strength of the bitcoin netowrk.  As more people mine, the value will increase.  This is simple because the more hash power a coin has, the harder it is to be subverted by bad actors.  It really is as simple as that.

Coincidentally, I believe Litecoin will increase in value relative to USD (but not BTC) as more and more GPU miners switch to Litecoin mining.

Full disclosure: I do not own any Litecoin.

[junglist.massive]

belive in math dude

[sergio]

There is the wrong believe that after certain years no more Bitcoins will be mined, that is incorrect, technically mining will continue  forever but that the block will be half every 4 years.

so to have a idea of the value of the block after so many years this is the formula.

n= number of years
v= value of block.

v = 50 * 2^trunc[-1*n/4 ]

where trunc just takes the integer part of the number.

so for n=1 to 3 v=50 BTC
for n=4 to 7 v=25 BTC

for example at 60 years later the blocksize for the reward will be.

60/4=15   so it will be 50*2^-15 which is 1.52 * 10^-3

in other words the block size will be 0.00152 bitcoins of course by then the bitcoin wil be very valuable.
Very different than dead as some made the comment, by then most will be  using satoshis.

the block size will continue to get closer to 0 but it will never be 0.

So when people say mining will stop at 2040 they are wrong, some will quit mining but that is a different story, the blocks will always be there.

This is what is called a geometric series, so even though the number of blocks is very much infinite (finite for other reasons) but mathematically infinite, the total number of bitcoins converges to 21 millions.

[melvster]

3) Alt coins could become very similar to BTC, and can be easily created

This is precisely why BTC has ZERO INTRINSIC VALUE.

people often say that BTC is valuable because I can transfer and spend it in ways that other currencies don't offer, however nothing is preventing me from making an ALTCHAIN and providing this same exact intrinsic value for presumably any price.

A couple of things to consider.

Bitcoin is a brand, and a valuable one.

Satoshi said bitcoin is a collectible.  I think there is some intrinsic value there.