BitSyncom, will all the chip orders ship together?

[Rampion]

Sorry, is Bitfury offering ready-made units or are they gathering pre-orders and asking for upfront payment for units delivered in the future? How is Bitfury's business model so superior's to Avalon? They already collected money and AFAIK they didn't deliver a single unit so far. Bitfury has a past history of successful FPGA development, as Avalon's ngzhang has. Pretty similar situation in my book, but please illustrate me how it's so different.

And BTW, 20k may seem a very big investment for you, but I remind you that only one BFL mini-rig was more expensive than that... And that many users in these forums are gambling more $ on KnC, for a much smaller $/potential profit ratio.

Bitfury offers ~2100 $ = ~21BTC / 120 GH/s unit - no delay yet, no evidence of mining with customers units

Avalon offers  B#3 ~10000 $ = ~100BTC / 85 GH/s unit - delayed already, heavily overpriced due to calculated 1 month break even according to bitsyncom promises, possible delivery of chips prior to batch #3 customers, building new facility instead of building customers units.

Batch #1 was indeed a gamble since there was no proven ASIC technology to work with bitcoin mining, and only 2 of 4 companies did menage to deliver on time(Avalon, ASICminer). Now times are quite different.

OH I didn't knew that bitcoin economy is designed to get rich people more rich? I assume that if you can afford sending 20K to some dudes in china you have quite a backup. My flawed thinking about bitcoin ecconomy sorry for that. batch #1 customers are hashing the shit out of it, while batch #3 customers were fooled to borrow money to Avalon team with no intrest rates

How much easier should it be to deliver something if you charge 10x times more than you need to deliver working unit and actually profit?
I assume that you have 10x more money to spend to deliver single working unit, that would be true if our money would have been spend on producing our units rather than new unnecessary facility. If something fails you got ten times more money than you need so you can forward that money to other place to speed up things, or again I am missing sth?

Bitfury offers 120GH/s units for $2100? Avalon offered +68GH/s unit for $1200 when the difficulty was 6 times lower, so it was cheaper.

There's no evidence of Bitfury mining with customers units? Give me a break, they haven't got any ASIC unit yet, you could say exactly the same thing about Avalon a few months ago - until they had the first units there was no evidence of them mining with customers units... And still, I don't see that overwhelming evidence anywhere.

Only difference between Avalon in late 2012 (when they took the first preorders) and Bitfury now is that Bitfury has some sample chips, while Avalon had nothing... But, this is an argument that works in two ways, for ex.: why is Bitfury asking for upfront money if they already had enough to develop the chips, which is by far the most expensive part of the development?

I have the impression you were not around when Avalon batch #1 were on sale, the potential profit in taking that gamble was HUGE (you could potentially lose $1 against winning $30), the risk on Bitfury is similar (ok, maybe slightly lower, but not much) but the fact is the potential profits are much smaller. And, FYI, Avalon was a big WIN for everyone that had the balls to take that gamble. Kudos to them for that.

Again: I don't know if you were around, but Avalon increased the price of their Batch #3 because their batch #1 costed $1,200 and were sold on ebay for +$30,000.... I don't know if you run a business, but there is no way a company sells a product for a price that allows resellers to make a x30 instant profit on their work. NO WAY. Following that "ebay situation", Batch #3 was priced in terms of expected ROI... Avalon screwed up the timings and thus with ROI projections, and now they acknowledge this mistake and offer a full refund to anyone asking for it. Seriously, what else do you want? Batch #3 price was fair if they were delivered when difficulty was 10 to 15 million, that was the plan, now the difficulty is above that point because they screwed up and they offer you a full refund... OK, take that refund and move on, you accepted "no refund policy" and they backtracked that policy, fair deal in my book.

I'm an Avalon customer with batch #3 on the way and I would have loved for them to deliver in early May, or to offer a partial refund to customers while still delivering the units... But that's wishful thinking, they are in now way obliged to do that, take your refund and invest on Bitfury if they are so much superior to Avalon in your opinion.

EDIT: and BTW, I *may* consider doing what I said in my last sentence, not because I believe Bitfury is more "honest" than Avalon, just because a batch #3 refund will allow me to buy more GH/s for my BTC. As simple as that, no need to whine.

[Wayne_Chang]

Sorry, is Bitfury offering ready-made units or are they gathering pre-orders and asking for upfront payment for units delivered in the future? How is Bitfury's business model so superior's to Avalon? They already collected money and AFAIK they didn't deliver a single unit so far. Bitfury has a past history of successful FPGA development, as Avalon's ngzhang has. Pretty similar situation in my book, but please illustrate me how it's so different.

And BTW, 20k may seem a very big investment for you, but I remind you that only one BFL mini-rig was more expensive than that... And that many users in these forums are gambling more $ on KnC, for a much smaller $/potential profit ratio.

Bitfury offers ~2100 $ = ~21BTC / 120 GH/s unit - no delay yet, no evidence of mining with customers units

Avalon offers  B#3 ~10000 $ = ~100BTC / 85 GH/s unit - delayed already, heavily overpriced due to calculated 1 month break even according to bitsyncom promises, possible delivery of chips prior to batch #3 customers, building new facility instead of building customers units.

Batch #1 was indeed a gamble since there was no proven ASIC technology to work with bitcoin mining, and only 2 of 4 companies did menage to deliver on time(Avalon, ASICminer). Now times are quite different.

OH I didn't knew that bitcoin economy is designed to get rich people more rich? I assume that if you can afford sending 20K to some dudes in china you have quite a backup. My flawed thinking about bitcoin ecconomy sorry for that. batch #1 customers are hashing the shit out of it, while batch #3 customers were fooled to borrow money to Avalon team with no intrest rates

How much easier should it be to deliver something if you charge 10x times more than you need to deliver working unit and actually profit?
I assume that you have 10x more money to spend to deliver single working unit, that would be true if our money would have been spend on producing our units rather than new unnecessary facility. If something fails you got ten times more money than you need so you can forward that money to other place to speed up things, or again I am missing sth?

Bitfury offers 120GH/s units for $2100? Avalon offered +68GH/s unit for $1200 when the difficulty was 6 times lower, so it was cheaper.

There's no evidence of Bitfury mining with customers units? Give me a break, they haven't got any ASIC unit yet, you could say exactly the same thing about Avalon a few months ago - until they had the first units there was no evidence of them mining with customers units... And still, I don't see that overwhelming evidence anywhere.

Only difference between Avalon in late 2012 (when they took the first preorders) and Bitfury now is that Bitfury has some sample chips, while Avalon had nothing... But, this is an argument that works in two ways, for ex.: why is Bitfury asking for upfront money if they already had enough to develop the chips, which is by far the most expensive part of the development?

I have the impression you were not around when Avalon batch #1 were on sale, the potential profit in taking that gamble was HUGE (you could potentially lose $1 against winning $30), the risk on Bitfury is similar (ok, maybe slightly lower, but not much) but the fact is the potential profits are much smaller. And, FYI, Avalon was a big WIN for everyone that had the balls to take that gamble. Kudos to them for that.

Again: I don't know if you were around, but Avalon increased the price of their Batch #3 because their batch #1 costed $1,200 and were sold on ebay for +$30,000.... I don't know if you run a business, but there is no way a company sells a product for a price that allows resellers to make a x30 instant profit on their work. NO WAY. Following that "ebay situation", Batch #3 was priced in terms of expected ROI... Avalon screwed up the timings and thus with ROI projections, and now they acknowledge this mistake and offer a full refund to anyone asking for it. Seriously, what else do you want? Batch #3 price was fair if they were delivered when difficulty was 10 to 15 million, that was the plan, now the difficulty is above that point because they screwed up and they offer you a full refund... OK, take that refund and move on, you accepted "no refund policy" and they backtracked that policy, fair deal in my book.

I'm an Avalon customer with batch #3 on the way and I would have loved for them to deliver in early May, or to offer a partial refund to customers while still delivering the units... But that's wishful thinking, they are in now way obliged to do that, take your refund and invest on Bitfury if they are so much superior to Avalon in your opinion.

EDIT: and BTW, I *may* consider doing what I said in my last sentence, not because I believe Bitfury is more "honest" than Avalon, just because a batch #3 refund will allow me to buy more GH/s for my BTC. As simple as that, no need to whine.

Yeah, after 3 months delay then said, hey guys, we accept refund.
As I said in another thread, the trust, patience and time of batch#3 customers are just piece of shit!

[gill83]

I woud still be OK with Avalon if it starts refunding any pre-orders, whenever a refund is requested! He has long recouped the NRE charges. His cost per chip is very minute as compared to the price he is selling at. His product is in high demand. It does not make any sense to not refund. Unless he is planning a bigger scam.

[Bitcoinorama]

Sorry, is Bitfury offering ready-made units or are they gathering pre-orders and asking for upfront payment for units delivered in the future? How is Bitfury's business model so superior's to Avalon? They already collected money and AFAIK they didn't deliver a single unit so far. Bitfury has a past history of successful FPGA development, as Avalon's ngzhang has. Pretty similar situation in my book, but please illustrate me how it's so different.

And BTW, 20k may seem a very big investment for you, but I remind you that only one BFL mini-rig was more expensive than that... And that many users in these forums are gambling more $ on KnC, for a much smaller $/potential profit ratio.

Bitfury offers ~2100 $ = ~21BTC / 120 GH/s unit - no delay yet, no evidence of mining with customers units

Avalon offers  B#3 ~10000 $ = ~100BTC / 85 GH/s unit - delayed already, heavily overpriced due to calculated 1 month break even according to bitsyncom promises, possible delivery of chips prior to batch #3 customers, building new facility instead of building customers units.

Batch #1 was indeed a gamble since there was no proven ASIC technology to work with bitcoin mining, and only 2 of 4 companies did menage to deliver on time(Avalon, ASICminer). Now times are quite different.

OH I didn't knew that bitcoin economy is designed to get rich people more rich? I assume that if you can afford sending 20K to some dudes in china you have quite a backup. My flawed thinking about bitcoin ecconomy sorry for that. batch #1 customers are hashing the shit out of it, while batch #3 customers were fooled to borrow money to Avalon team with no intrest rates

How much easier should it be to deliver something if you charge 10x times more than you need to deliver working unit and actually profit?
I assume that you have 10x more money to spend to deliver single working unit, that would be true if our money would have been spend on producing our units rather than new unnecessary facility. If something fails you got ten times more money than you need so you can forward that money to other place to speed up things, or again I am missing sth?

Bitfury offers 120GH/s units for $2100? Avalon offered +68GH/s unit for $1200 when the difficulty was 6 times lower, so it was cheaper.

There's no evidence of Bitfury mining with customers units? Give me a break, they haven't got any ASIC unit yet, you could say exactly the same thing about Avalon a few months ago - until they had the first units there was no evidence of them mining with customers units... And still, I don't see that overwhelming evidence anywhere.

Only difference between Avalon in late 2012 (when they took the first preorders) and Bitfury now is that Bitfury has some sample chips, while Avalon had nothing... But, this is an argument that works in two ways, for ex.: why is Bitfury asking for upfront money if they already had enough to develop the chips, which is by far the most expensive part of the development?

I have the impression you were not around when Avalon batch #1 were on sale, the potential profit in taking that gamble was HUGE (you could potentially lose $1 against winning $30), the risk on Bitfury is similar (ok, maybe slightly lower, but not much) but the fact is the potential profits are much smaller. And, FYI, Avalon was a big WIN for everyone that had the balls to take that gamble. Kudos to them for that.

Again: I don't know if you were around, but Avalon increased the price of their Batch #3 because their batch #1 costed $1,200 and were sold on ebay for +$30,000.... I don't know if you run a business, but there is no way a company sells a product for a price that allows resellers to make a x30 instant profit on their work. NO WAY. Following that "ebay situation", Batch #3 was priced in terms of expected ROI... Avalon screwed up the timings and thus with ROI projections, and now they acknowledge this mistake and offer a full refund to anyone asking for it. Seriously, what else do you want? Batch #3 price was fair if they were delivered when difficulty was 10 to 15 million, that was the plan, now the difficulty is above that point because they screwed up and they offer you a full refund... OK, take that refund and move on, you accepted "no refund policy" and they backtracked that policy, fair deal in my book.

I'm an Avalon customer with batch #3 on the way and I would have loved for them to deliver in early May, or to offer a partial refund to customers while still delivering the units... But that's wishful thinking, they are in now way obliged to do that, take your refund and invest on Bitfury if they are so much superior to Avalon in your opinion.

EDIT: and BTW, I *may* consider doing what I said in my last sentence, not because I believe Bitfury is more "honest" than Avalon, just because a batch #3 refund will allow me to buy more GH/s for my BTC. As simple as that, no need to whine.

Yeah, after 3 months delay then said, hey guys, we accept refund.
As I said in another thread, the trust, patience and time of batch#3 customers are just piece of shit!

Personally I feel Batch #3 customers deserve to receive units well ahead of the bulk chip orders, irrespective of any refund, which has only been offered to quell unrest and call-out any negative posting customers.

If they coerced people into investing in a third batch, which was non-refundable, or transferable to bulk chips at a later date, that is seriously unfair.

The bulk chips were offered a few weeks later, most if not all Avalon Batch #3 customers would have opted for bulk-chips over units with artificially inflated prices. The fact the bulk chips are marked up significantly over their cost to produce further highlights the unfairness of this current situation for batch #3 customers.

Fact is Batch #3 customers ordered not knowing what was around the corner, when BitSyncom obviously did.

Batch#3 units have faced unnecessary delays with, or without any substance in rumours that their units are currently being mined with.

At the very least they should be given a head start equally to their ROI before bulk chips are released, if they are to be treated with respect for supporting the Avalon project. It's the only way to behave with integrity in this situation.

Refunds are a kick in the teeth after their patience, as would be a transfer to bulk chip equivalent now.

It's the batch#1 customers that haven't received anything, or have received defective units, and then purposely and knowingly ignored this entire time that I feel most sorry for. That is truly disgraceful, and for all the good I believe Yifu has achieved, I do not understand the mentality there...it would be such a simple fix.

[erschiessen]

Bitcoinorama,

With all due respect, how can manufacturing incompetence of B#3 affect chip orders, except out of spite?

It is not like the chip orders are given prioroty over miners. If that were so, I would be in concurrence.

[pajak666]

Bitcoinorama,

With all due respect, how can manufacturing incompetence of B#3 affect chip orders, except out of spite?

It is not like the chip orders are given prioroty over miners. If that were so, I would be in concurrence.

In fact batch #3 enourmous price was calculated on some estimated difficulty, once they ship chips first they will pump up the difficulty, screwing all batch #3 customers over, and will not fulfill the deal/agreement with customers

[Rampion]

Bitcoinorama,

With all due respect, how can manufacturing incompetence of B#3 affect chip orders, except out of spite?

It is not like the chip orders are given prioroty over miners. If that were so, I would be in concurrence.

In fact batch #3 enourmous price was calculated on some estimated difficulty, once they ship chips first they will pump up the difficulty, screwing all batch #3 customers over, and will not fulfill the deal/agreement with customers

Very true, but as customers we can just take our money back and put it elsewhere. That's the only thing we have left.

[gill83]

Bitcoinorama,

With all due respect, how can manufacturing incompetence of B#3 affect chip orders, except out of spite?

It is not like the chip orders are given prioroty over miners. If that were so, I would be in concurrence.

In fact batch #3 enourmous price was calculated on some estimated difficulty, once they ship chips first they will pump up the difficulty, screwing all batch #3 customers over, and will not fulfill the deal/agreement with customers

Very true, but as customers we can just take our money back and put it elsewhere. That's the only thing we have left.

If he can refund Batch3, why can't he refund chip orders? Its the same thing. He is just being greedy, and it hurts him to see the money going out.

[Bitcoinorama]

Bitcoinorama,

With all due respect, how can manufacturing incompetence of B#3 affect chip orders, except out of spite?

It is not like the chip orders are given prioroty over miners. If that were so, I would be in concurrence.

In my mind it's just the fact they opened for batch #3 at a significantly inflated price, knowing full well they were about to sell chips en mass, in bulk for a more reasonably comparative price point.

Most bulk #3 customers would have undoubtedly held back.

But they had a finite window of a few hours to make a purchase by a non-refundable payment means. I know as I stared at that screen almost purchasing myself.

In essence they were somewhat duped.

Then subsequently ignored most of the time, perhaps with their equipment mined on, we're not fully sure what happened there, but certainly there have been units (batch#2) good to go, that weren't sent when ready.

Now it looks like they won't receive this units until after bulk chips are sent out, potentially destroying their ROI, let alone future profit, which the batch #3 units were priced in accordance with, it just not cricket...

[koob]

Very true, but as customers we can just take our money back and put it elsewhere. That's the only thing we have left.

Batch#3 customers could receive some extra chips to recompense those delays

[Rampion]

Bitcoinorama,

With all due respect, how can manufacturing incompetence of B#3 affect chip orders, except out of spite?

It is not like the chip orders are given prioroty over miners. If that were so, I would be in concurrence.

In fact batch #3 enourmous price was calculated on some estimated difficulty, once they ship chips first they will pump up the difficulty, screwing all batch #3 customers over, and will not fulfill the deal/agreement with customers

Very true, but as customers we can just take our money back and put it elsewhere. That's the only thing we have left.

If he can refund Batch3, why can't he refund chip orders? Its the same thing. He is just being greedy, and it hurts him to see the money going out.

Post your order # and let's see if Bitsyncom refunds you. After all this whining, I'm pretty sure he will. Let's see, give it a try of you want it so badly.

[Bitcoinorama]

Very true, but as customers we can just take our money back and put it elsewhere. That's the only thing we have left.

Batch#3 customers could receive some extra chips to recompense those delays

I certainly think all 3 module purchases, should be bumped upto 4 modules at no extra cost...

[gill83]

Bitcoinorama,

With all due respect, how can manufacturing incompetence of B#3 affect chip orders, except out of spite?

It is not like the chip orders are given prioroty over miners. If that were so, I would be in concurrence.

In fact batch #3 enourmous price was calculated on some estimated difficulty, once they ship chips first they will pump up the difficulty, screwing all batch #3 customers over, and will not fulfill the deal/agreement with customers

Very true, but as customers we can just take our money back and put it elsewhere. That's the only thing we have left.

If he can refund Batch3, why can't he refund chip orders? Its the same thing. He is just being greedy, and it hurts him to see the money going out.

Post your order # and let's see if Bitsyncom refunds you. After all this whining, I'm pretty sure he will. Let's see, give it a try of you want it so badly.

I haven't even ordered yet. And I don't think I will. His practice is shady.

[koob]

I certainly think all 3 module purchases, should be bumped upto 4 modules at no extra cost...

What about those who ordered 4 modules then ?

[Rampion]

Very true, but as customers we can just take our money back and put it elsewhere. That's the only thing we have left.

Batch#3 customers could receive some extra chips to recompense those delays

That would be great - what about a partial refund? Units where priced at $75 because the diff. at delivery was expected to be between 10 and 12 million... Now it's double, what about a 37.5BTC refund to all customers? That would be awesome, and would be consistent with the logic Avalon followed to price their units, as they insisted on the fact the price was calculated on ROI based on difficulty expectation....

But.... I'm quite sure this won't happen.

[Rampion]

Bitcoinorama,

With all due respect, how can manufacturing incompetence of B#3 affect chip orders, except out of spite?

It is not like the chip orders are given prioroty over miners. If that were so, I would be in concurrence.

In fact batch #3 enourmous price was calculated on some estimated difficulty, once they ship chips first they will pump up the difficulty, screwing all batch #3 customers over, and will not fulfill the deal/agreement with customers

Very true, but as customers we can just take our money back and put it elsewhere. That's the only thing we have left.

If he can refund Batch3, why can't he refund chip orders? Its the same thing. He is just being greedy, and it hurts him to see the money going out.

Post your order # and let's see if Bitsyncom refunds you. After all this whining, I'm pretty sure he will. Let's see, give it a try of you want it so badly.

I haven't even ordered yet. And I don't think I will. His practice is shady.

So... You want to place an order for 10,000 chips, an order Avalon has to forward to the fab and pay for it, but at the same time you want to keep the right to chicken out if the difficulty skyrockets before you receive them? This is what you want, right?

What do you believe, that they can get refunds for their fab? Keep dreaming, TSMC won't refund any customer that "chickens out".

[gill83]

Bitcoinorama,

With all due respect, how can manufacturing incompetence of B#3 affect chip orders, except out of spite?

It is not like the chip orders are given prioroty over miners. If that were so, I would be in concurrence.

In fact batch #3 enourmous price was calculated on some estimated difficulty, once they ship chips first they will pump up the difficulty, screwing all batch #3 customers over, and will not fulfill the deal/agreement with customers

Very true, but as customers we can just take our money back and put it elsewhere. That's the only thing we have left.

If he can refund Batch3, why can't he refund chip orders? Its the same thing. He is just being greedy, and it hurts him to see the money going out.

Post your order # and let's see if Bitsyncom refunds you. After all this whining, I'm pretty sure he will. Let's see, give it a try of you want it so badly.

I haven't even ordered yet. And I don't think I will. His practice is shady.

So... You want to place an order for 10,000 chips, an order Avalon has to forward to the fab and pay for it, but at the same time you want to keep the right to chicken out if the difficulty skyrockets before you receive them? This is what you want, right?

What do you believe, that they can get refunds for their fab? Keep dreaming, TSMC won't refund any customer that "chickens out".

He is certainly not paying 80,000 USD for 10,000 chips to TSMC. And he is certainly not ordering 10,000 chips at a time. And as I have said before, his product being in high demand, he can sell that order to someone else. I am sure he loves to have minions like you around who would do his job of fooling people for him.

[Rampion]

He is certainly not paying 80,000 USD for 10,000 chips to TSMC. And he is certainly not ordering 10,000 chips at a time. And as I have said before, his product being in high demand, he can sell that order to someone else. I am sure he loves to have minions like you around who would do his job of fooling people for him.

Man, you sound very butthurt for being late to the party. Wake up, the time of huge ROI in mining is GONE, we're back to normal.

If you don't want to buy from Avalon, do not buy, we all know they are not paying 0.078BTC per chip to the fab. But... But... Wait.... How many BTC will each one of those chips generate? Well... Potentially much more than 0.078BTC! Wow, what a surprise... That's why you want them, right? So... Do you want Avalon to sell you a chip that potentially generates $100 for $1, and if that investment gets riskier because you were late, you want to have the right to chicken out.

Yeah man, keep dreaming - again: you arrived late to the party, sorry for that. You should have bought a couple batch #1 and you would now be grateful of that insane return that no other company has never ever offered you (and will never again), and you would be looking at things with a bit of perspective. But, I know, being late feels bad.

[Bitcoinorama]

I certainly think all 3 module purchases, should be bumped upto 4 modules at no extra cost...

What about those who ordered 4 modules then ?

I don't know...whatever seems as proportionately appropriate. Fact is, if bulk chips arrive ahead of batch #3 deliveries, Batch #3 customers have been shafted, which is looking more likely now...

[Felipeo]

Sorry, is Bitfury offering ready-made units or are they gathering pre-orders and asking for upfront payment for units delivered in the future? How is Bitfury's business model so superior's to Avalon? They already collected money and AFAIK they didn't deliver a single unit so far. Bitfury has a past history of successful FPGA development, as Avalon's ngzhang has. Pretty similar situation in my book, but please illustrate me how it's so different.

And BTW, 20k may seem a very big investment for you, but I remind you that only one BFL mini-rig was more expensive than that... And that many users in these forums are gambling more $ on KnC, for a much smaller $/potential profit ratio.

Bitfury offers ~2100 $ = ~21BTC / 120 GH/s unit - no delay yet, no evidence of mining with customers units

Avalon offers  B#3 ~10000 $ = ~100BTC / 85 GH/s unit - delayed already, heavily overpriced due to calculated 1 month break even according to bitsyncom promises, possible delivery of chips prior to batch #3 customers, building new facility instead of building customers units.

Batch #1 was indeed a gamble since there was no proven ASIC technology to work with bitcoin mining, and only 2 of 4 companies did menage to deliver on time(Avalon, ASICminer). Now times are quite different.

OH I didn't knew that bitcoin economy is designed to get rich people more rich? I assume that if you can afford sending 20K to some dudes in china you have quite a backup. My flawed thinking about bitcoin ecconomy sorry for that. batch #1 customers are hashing the shit out of it, while batch #3 customers were fooled to borrow money to Avalon team with no intrest rates

How much easier should it be to deliver something if you charge 10x times more than you need to deliver working unit and actually profit?
I assume that you have 10x more money to spend to deliver single working unit, that would be true if our money would have been spend on producing our units rather than new unnecessary facility. If something fails you got ten times more money than you need so you can forward that money to other place to speed up things, or again I am missing sth?

Bitfury offers 120GH/s units for $2100? Avalon offered +68GH/s unit for $1200 when the difficulty was 6 times lower, so it was cheaper.

There's no evidence of Bitfury mining with customers units? Give me a break, they haven't got any ASIC unit yet, you could say exactly the same thing about Avalon a few months ago - until they had the first units there was no evidence of them mining with customers units... And still, I don't see that overwhelming evidence anywhere.

Only difference between Avalon in late 2012 (when they took the first preorders) and Bitfury now is that Bitfury has some sample chips, while Avalon had nothing... But, this is an argument that works in two ways, for ex.: why is Bitfury asking for upfront money if they already had enough to develop the chips, which is by far the most expensive part of the development?

I have the impression you were not around when Avalon batch #1 were on sale, the potential profit in taking that gamble was HUGE (you could potentially lose $1 against winning $30), the risk on Bitfury is similar (ok, maybe slightly lower, but not much) but the fact is the potential profits are much smaller. And, FYI, Avalon was a big WIN for everyone that had the balls to take that gamble. Kudos to them for that.

Again: I don't know if you were around, but Avalon increased the price of their Batch #3 because their batch #1 costed $1,200 and were sold on ebay for +$30,000.... I don't know if you run a business, but there is no way a company sells a product for a price that allows resellers to make a x30 instant profit on their work. NO WAY. Following that "ebay situation", Batch #3 was priced in terms of expected ROI... Avalon screwed up the timings and thus with ROI projections, and now they acknowledge this mistake and offer a full refund to anyone asking for it. Seriously, what else do you want? Batch #3 price was fair if they were delivered when difficulty was 10 to 15 million, that was the plan, now the difficulty is above that point because they screwed up and they offer you a full refund... OK, take that refund and move on, you accepted "no refund policy" and they backtracked that policy, fair deal in my book.

I'm an Avalon customer with batch #3 on the way and I would have loved for them to deliver in early May, or to offer a partial refund to customers while still delivering the units... But that's wishful thinking, they are in now way obliged to do that, take your refund and invest on Bitfury if they are so much superior to Avalon in your opinion.

EDIT: and BTW, I *may* consider doing what I said in my last sentence, not because I believe Bitfury is more "honest" than Avalon, just because a batch #3 refund will allow me to buy more GH/s for my BTC. As simple as that, no need to whine.

Yeah, after 3 months delay then said, hey guys, we accept refund.
As I said in another thread, the trust, patience and time of batch#3 customers are just piece of shit!

Personally I feel Batch #3 customers deserve to receive units well ahead of the bulk chip orders, irrespective of any refund, which has only been offered to quell unrest and call-out any negative posting customers.

If they coerced people into investing in a third batch, which was non-refundable, or transferable to bulk chips at a later date, that is seriously unfair.

The bulk chips were offered a few weeks later, most if not all Avalon Batch #3 customers would have opted for bulk-chips over units with artificially inflated prices. The fact the bulk chips are marked up significantly over their cost to produce further highlights the unfairness of this current situation for batch #3 customers.

Fact is Batch #3 customers ordered not knowing what was around the corner, when BitSyncom obviously did.

Batch#3 units have faced unnecessary delays with, or without any substance in rumours that their units are currently being mined with.

At the very least they should be given a head start equally to their ROI before bulk chips are released, if they are to be treated with respect for supporting the Avalon project. It's the only way to behave with integrity in this situation.

Refunds are a kick in the teeth after their patience, as would be a transfer to bulk chip equivalent now.

It's the batch#1 customers that haven't received anything, or have received defective units, and then purposely and knowingly ignored this entire time that I feel most sorry for. That is truly disgraceful, and for all the good I believe Yifu has achieved, I do not understand the mentality there...it would be such a simple fix.

fact is a fact they fuck up with deliver time and they need to do some thing about this situation, month ROI was mentioned, but after 2month delay and "chip order surprise", we deserved for something more for our BTC investment in Avalon facility