Wake up before it is too late

[HeRetiK]

[...]

This does not mean block chain is wrong - block chain is a technology likely with a lot of good commercial applications, just like the internet.

A blockchain without tokens is just a distributed database. There's nothing new about that. It's like claiming that telephone lines were the innovation behind the internet.

It's when piecing the various parts together that lead to cryptocurrencies that things get interesting.

But similar to the dot-com bubble almost all of the current investments in "products" using block chain completely lack a fundamental sound business model, and the cryptocurrencies are foremost amongst those.

I absolutely agree with the first part of your sentence -- that blockchain "investments", specifically ICOs and such -- completely lack the fundamentals of what makes a worthwhile investment. I also agree that in this part of the crypto-ecosystem there's a lot of shady shit going on, trying to sucker people into what they believe is quick money.

The point I am trying to make is that Bitcoin is not simply one of many startups -- it's the fundamental technology that lies at the heart of it. It is not the equivalent of dot-com company -- it's the equivalent of the internet.

[freightjoe]

Wow - a lot of dancing around to avoid the word "ponzi" being attached to Bitcoin. A turd is still a turd no matter what you call it.....

This is progress. Your original premise is that BTC is a turn because it was like a ponzi scheme. Now that we agree it is not like a ponzi scheme, perhaps you can clarify your argument.

On the spectrum of turdiness, is BTC more or less turdy than an early stage biotech startup?  Is it more or less turdy than a Canadian platinum mining play?  Is it more or less turdy than Tesla?

The only thing I think we can agree on is that you appear to be in category #2

[freightjoe]

[...]

This does not mean block chain is wrong - block chain is a technology likely with a lot of good commercial applications, just like the internet.

A blockchain without tokens is just a distributed database. There's nothing new about that. It's like claiming that telephone lines were the innovation behind the internet.

It's when piecing the various parts together that lead to cryptocurrencies that things get interesting.

But similar to the dot-com bubble almost all of the current investments in "products" using block chain completely lack a fundamental sound business model, and the cryptocurrencies are foremost amongst those.

I absolutely agree with the first part of your sentence -- that blockchain "investments", specifically ICOs and such -- completely lack the fundamentals of what makes a worthwhile investment. I also agree that in this part of the crypto-ecosystem there's a lot of shady shit going on, trying to sucker people into what they believe is quick money.

The point I am trying to make is that Bitcoin is not simply one of many startups -- it's the fundamental technology that lies at the heart of it. It is not the equivalent of dot-com company -- it's the equivalent of the internet.

No. Wrong.  Block chain is the technology. Bitcoin is merely one use of the technology.

[SMB-2525]

Wow - a lot of dancing around to avoid the word "ponzi" being attached to Bitcoin. A turd is still a turd no matter what you call it.....

This is progress. Your original premise is that BTC is a turn because it was like a ponzi scheme. Now that we agree it is not like a ponzi scheme, perhaps you can clarify your argument.

On the spectrum of turdiness, is BTC more or less turdy than an early stage biotech startup?  Is it more or less turdy than a Canadian platinum mining play?  Is it more or less turdy than Tesla?

The only thing I think we can agree on is that you appear to be in category #2

Now you are engaging in labelling and name calling. This not reasoned discourse.
You make a two good points: BTC is not a currency and the current price run-up looks like a bubble.
Everything else you claim is without intellectual foundation. Especially the manner in which you criticize the participants in this forum

[ismart1]

Wow how this forum is an unbelievable echo-chamber fueling one big ponzi scheme. Bitcoin as a currency, give me a break. A currency where it takes days to clear payments unless you pay massive fees - fees that are hostage to whatever vagaries the miners have? And if you don't, you are left in limbo where you have no idea whether it takes minutes, hours or days to move your money? A currency which is heavily impacted by "civil wars" with rival crypto currencies? A "currency" even less stable than the former Zimbabwean dollar. Don't get me wrong - the other crypto "currencies" equally well fit the ponzi scheme.

It is abundantly clear from reading in here for quite a while that the vast majority of people speculating in here are simply pinning all their hopes and dreams on the notion that these tulip bulbs - sorry tokens - can only rise in value. Sorry to say, but some people are going to get hurt badly eventually....

You are entitled to your opinion, of course, many people still think the earth is flat beside all the evidence otherwise. You are right when you say that the higher fees are a setback on the bitcoin system, but also because you may need to learn a little more how to use, and other tokens may alleviate this burden on the near future. Just an example if you use coinbase you will pay around $11 to transfer $25 but will pay the $11 if you transfer $100,000 or more. Try this at Western Union. But no the other side you can pay as low as 96s/wt on blockchain.info what would cost around $2 or less, so if you know how to use, yes it´s a painful process, but a $200B growing market is more than a lot of stock exchanges for some countries has. Would you say that when you buy a regular stock or options you´re living on speculation? Cryptocurrencies are not different and just because NASDAQ crashed in 2008 became a fraud, did it?

[freightjoe]

This not reasoned discourse.

That perfectly sums up the discourse in every single thread on this entire forum

[freightjoe]

Wow how this forum is an unbelievable echo-chamber fueling one big ponzi scheme. Bitcoin as a currency, give me a break. A currency where it takes days to clear payments unless you pay massive fees - fees that are hostage to whatever vagaries the miners have? And if you don't, you are left in limbo where you have no idea whether it takes minutes, hours or days to move your money? A currency which is heavily impacted by "civil wars" with rival crypto currencies? A "currency" even less stable than the former Zimbabwean dollar. Don't get me wrong - the other crypto "currencies" equally well fit the ponzi scheme.

It is abundantly clear from reading in here for quite a while that the vast majority of people speculating in here are simply pinning all their hopes and dreams on the notion that these tulip bulbs - sorry tokens - can only rise in value. Sorry to say, but some people are going to get hurt badly eventually....

You are entitled to your opinion, of course, many people still think the earth is flat beside all the evidence otherwise. You are right when you say that the higher fees are a setback on the bitcoin system, but also because you may need to learn a little more how to use, and other tokens may alleviate this burden on the near future. Just an example if you use coinbase you will pay around $11 to transfer $25 but will pay the $11 if you transfer $100,000 or more. Try this at Western Union. But no the other side you can pay as low as 96s/wt on blockchain.info what would cost around $2 or less, so if you know how to use, yes it´s a painful process, but a $200B growing market is more than a lot of stock exchanges for some countries has. Would you say that when you buy a regular stock or options you´re living on speculation? Cryptocurrencies are not different and just because NASDAQ crashed in 2008 became a fraud, did it?

The US economy collapsed because immoral people tricked ordinary citizens to take on loans which they had no hope of ever repaying - but packaging it in a way so people did not understand what was going on. They were simply lured in by the prospect of easy access to money. Same thing repeating now, only with different tools.

[Eternu]

I understand your soncern and your point of view. I will not say that you are wrong, because we all have free will to think what we want. Also I agree on some parts of your thinking, but also you are wrong on some too. Of course this is my opinion. We invest in Bitcoin on our free will, and most people understand possible consequences. I think it is good to hear other people's opinion even if its oposit from ours.

[patt0]

Look all markets crash eventually. Plenty of banks in our history that failed, and with their failure, most of the times because of corruption from their managers, resulted in a loss for those who invested in them. Is there a risk in bitcoin? Yes, there is, the same way there is a risk in every asset, or even currency, because governments fail to, and with their failure comes hyperinflation.

No, bitcoin is not a currency right now, and can't be used that way. Yes, fees are high, but the time for bitcoin to be a global currency simply hasn't arrived yet. Stability will come with more liquidity, and more liquidity will come when the institutional money starts entering the market. That will happen with CME futures, and eventually ETF's. That is happening now, so bitcoin is following a good path here. You don't have to invest in it if you don't like it, but right now, it's one of the safest investments out there, in it's relation to risk/profit. That's just my personal opinion of course.

[andron8383]

Wow how this forum is an unbelievable echo-chamber fueling one big ponzi scheme. Bitcoin as a currency, give me a break. A currency where it takes days to clear payments unless you pay massive fees - fees that are hostage to whatever vagaries the miners have? And if you don't, you are left in limbo where you have no idea whether it takes minutes, hours or days to move your money? A currency which is heavily impacted by "civil wars" with rival crypto currencies? A "currency" even less stable than the former Zimbabwean dollar. Don't get me wrong - the other crypto "currencies" equally well fit the ponzi scheme.

It is abundantly clear from reading in here for quite a while that the vast majority of people speculating in here are simply pinning all their hopes and dreams on the notion that these tulip bulbs - sorry tokens - can only rise in value. Sorry to say, but some people are going to get hurt badly eventually....

Bitcoin is very popular becouse of investment tool not currency anymore . Like gold while have not much utility it is much higher in value than silver which is much common used in space.
So people have chosen BTC becouse this is ONLY one coin that have no clear CEO in space.

[SMB-2525]

That perfectly sums up the discourse in every single thread on this entire forum

More name calling and reckless generalization.

The US economy collapsed because immoral people tricked ordinary citizens to take on loans which they had no hope of ever repaying - but packaging it in a way so people did not understand what was going on. They were simply lured in by the prospect of easy access to money. Same thing repeating now, only with different tools.

Another inapplicable analogy. In this case people took on loans based on greed and their conviction that the bubble would continue. They were not innocent bystanders.
In this case, there is not a huge FIRE (Finance, Insurance, Real Estate) industry pushing bitcoin and encouraging people to take on debt.

You are correct that it may be a bubble. You are incorrect in labelling every person who believes in the future of bitcoin as a bad actor.

[freightjoe]

You are correct that it may be a bubble. You are incorrect in labelling every person who believes in the future of bitcoin as a bad actor.

But I don't label everyone as a bad actor. You are either a bad actor - or you are the one being taken advantage of. Same as at the poker table. If you can't spot the sucker, you are it.

[freightjoe]

Bitcoin is very popular becouse of investment tool not currency anymore . Like gold while have not much utility it is much higher in value than silver which is much common used in space.
So people have chosen BTC becouse this is ONLY one coin that have no clear CEO in space.

Wow.

So you are advocating for an investment because it has no CEO. Clearly an alternative type of endorsement - and given all the challenges with forks and the civil war raging for the past couple of weeks, how is that working out for 'ya?

[equator]

Wow how this forum is an unbelievable echo-chamber fueling one big ponzi scheme. Bitcoin as a currency, give me a break. A currency where it takes days to clear payments unless you pay massive fees - fees that are hostage to whatever vagaries the miners have? And if you don't, you are left in limbo where you have no idea whether it takes minutes, hours or days to move your money? A currency which is heavily impacted by "civil wars" with rival crypto currencies? A "currency" even less stable than the former Zimbabwean dollar. Don't get me wrong - the other crypto "currencies" equally well fit the ponzi scheme.

It is abundantly clear from reading in here for quite a while that the vast majority of people speculating in here are simply pinning all their hopes and dreams on the notion that these tulip bulbs - sorry tokens - can only rise in value. Sorry to say, but some people are going to get hurt badly eventually....

What you are saying is true, because the way the transactions are getting delay in confirmation and fees taking higher limits will push more bitcoin value in dark but i think bitcoin cash is a good reply to this problem as it takes fraction of second to confirm the transaction and the fees is also very very low.

[freightjoe]

but i think bitcoin cash is a good reply to this problem as it takes fraction of second to confirm the transaction and the fees is also very very low.

bitcoin cash is just as bad - as is any cryptocurrency

[care2yak]

Wow - a lot of dancing around to avoid the word "ponzi" being attached to Bitcoin. A turd is still a turd no matter what you call it.....

oh come on... you just refuse to be reasoned with and you can't provide conditions for your concept of ponzi   so who's the turd, right  

look, a ponzi scheme generates returns for older investors by acquiring new investors. that's the standard definition of a ponzi. if you think that bitcoin or altcoin is just an illusion of value, and cryptofinance is a joke then you don't understand the history money.

how do yo think the stock exchange works? in stock exchange, you purchase a certain amount of stocks at a given price. if the price dips, the value of your investment drops and you're at a loss. the price goes up, you gain - if it goes up. if it crashes, your money is gone. in exchange for the money you invest in stocks, you're given a certificate that tells you about your chosen investment. your broker and the company you bought stocks from earns from your investment. you either provide a new investment and move to a different stock. other people do the same and even encourage others to get involved in stock exchange. one gets involved in stock exchange for the money.

in foreign exchange, you invest $10,000 usd so you'll have enough tolerance for the price movements. if you play with the proper lot size and you can read the proper indicators, you can place profitable buys and sells. your $10k usd goes to the trading house/bank that'll provide you with the platform to trade foreign currencies. you place a buy or sell order and the broker earns for every buy or sell order you make. the trading house earns from the spread. your tolerance for risk drops when your losing and after placing the wrong orders, your account closes. you lose, the trading house and the broker wins. they encourage others to learn and invest in forex. one gets involved in forex to earn more money.

in insurance, may it be life, non-life, health, and variable, money from clients/investors come in. that money is invested by the insurance company in mutual funds and other asset-growing activity that will firstly benefit the insurance company and its vips. more investors are encouraged so the cycle won't stop. you'll want insurance coverage for the money.

with fiat or the paper bill and coins that you have there with you, they're prone to demonetization. the government can just decide to demonetize and in an instant the bill that you have there will be of  no value. you believe that what you have is valuable because the government says so. that is an illusion of value created sadly by the powers that be. and when they say that by this time tomorrow, its value is stripped and you're not aware of it, then you're left with just paper.

with bitcoin and the alts   connect the dots yet?

[Phyton76]

Wow how this forum is an unbelievable echo-chamber fueling one big ponzi scheme. Bitcoin as a currency, give me a break. A currency where it takes days to clear payments unless you pay massive fees - fees that are hostage to whatever vagaries the miners have? And if you don't, you are left in limbo where you have no idea whether it takes minutes, hours or days to move your money? A currency which is heavily impacted by "civil wars" with rival crypto currencies? A "currency" even less stable than the former Zimbabwean dollar. Don't get me wrong - the other crypto "currencies" equally well fit the ponzi scheme.

It is abundantly clear from reading in here for quite a while that the vast majority of people speculating in here are simply pinning all their hopes and dreams on the notion that these tulip bulbs - sorry tokens - can only rise in value. Sorry to say, but some people are going to get hurt badly eventually....

Yes you really need to wake up before it becomes too late for you. If that is your take-away from my post, clearly you do not have the intelligence to understand the point. I just feel sorry for the people out there who can genuinely not afford to lose their savings, but right now have them tied up in this scheme, and if they don't get out will end up with no savings. You need to save more money.

[btcprospecter]

It makes me wonder why you believe bitcoin to be a ponzi scheme. Transactions have been taking longer bitcoin cash price rises haven't helped as miners will just switch to what is more profitable.

[FameBroker]

Just use another cryptocurrency

[JohnHero]

Wow how this forum is an unbelievable echo-chamber fueling one big ponzi scheme. Bitcoin as a currency, give me a break. A currency where it takes days to clear payments unless you pay massive fees - fees that are hostage to whatever vagaries the miners have? And if you don't, you are left in limbo where you have no idea whether it takes minutes, hours or days to move your money? A currency which is heavily impacted by "civil wars" with rival crypto currencies? A "currency" even less stable than the former Zimbabwean dollar. Don't get me wrong - the other crypto "currencies" equally well fit the ponzi scheme.

It is abundantly clear from reading in here for quite a while that the vast majority of people speculating in here are simply pinning all their hopes and dreams on the notion that these tulip bulbs - sorry tokens - can only rise in value. Sorry to say, but some people are going to get hurt badly eventually....

I think you missunderstood the whole concept of crypto currency. What fees do banks require? How many days do bank require? How does governemnt print money? How is your economical status trackable by the government?