Bitcoin Foundation receives cease and desist order from California

[ktttn]

So:

E-gold operators arrested and jailed for unlicensed money transactions
E-Bullion operators arrested and jailed for unlicensed money transactions
Liberty Dollar owner jailed for variety of bullshit charges
Liberty Reserve operators arrested for unlicensed money transactions
Russian payment gateway operators kidnapped and extradited for enabling online gambling
TBF members ...

In my opinion it is for the good of Bitcoin system:
- the legal fiction called TBF either dissolves
- or developers leave TBF and remain independent.

It is neither safe nor noble for the devs to be associated with this business organization.

The suit and white collar guys from TBF (businessmen) who wanted to play with fire by hiring lobbyists to get intimate with regulators / legislators to promote their present and future businesses at the expense of Bitcoin system development - well, let them get burned (hopefully not severely). Let them and their lobbyists wage silly legal battles.

Even thou California objectively derped, the worstcase scenario, besides Gavin &co getting waterboarded forever, isn't so bad.

[cbeast]

So:

E-gold operators arrested and jailed for unlicensed money transactions
E-Bullion operators arrested and jailed for unlicensed money transactions
Liberty Dollar owner jailed for variety of bullshit charges
Liberty Reserve operators arrested for unlicensed money transactions
Russian payment gateway operators kidnapped and extradited for enabling online gambling
TBF members ...

In my opinion it is for the good of Bitcoin system:
- the legal fiction called TBF either dissolves
- or developers leave TBF and remain independent.

It is neither safe nor noble for the devs to be associated with this business organization.

The suit and white collar guys from TBF (businessmen) who wanted to play with fire by hiring lobbyists to get intimate with regulators / legislators to promote their present and future businesses at the expense of Bitcoin system development - well, let them get burned (hopefully not severely). Let them and their lobbyists wage silly legal battles.

Even thou California objectively derped, the worstcase scenario, besides Gavin &co getting waterboarded forever, isn't so bad.

I have an idea. If executed properly, it would add tremendeous value to Bitcoin. Here it is:

Let's send TBF members and all core devs to FEMA camp and have them locked there for a while, like few years. Then let the rest of current
developers and some new developers takeover, and eventualy create TBF v2.

The world would have a definitive proof that Bitcoin can not be killed by removing it's head. Who is with me?

meh, The US took out Bin Laden, all of his top leaders, and his entire Al Queda organization and now we are hunting multiple groups and calling them all Al Quedas. Haters don't stop hating once they start.

[RodeoX]

meh, The US took out Bin Laden, all of his top leaders, and his entire Al Queda organization...

I don't know man. On Sept. 11, 2001 Al Qaeda had sent about 10K through their base camp. (Al Quaeda means military base camp) Today I don't think anyone even knows how many tens of thousands of fighters they have. They control territory in Africa, Yemen, Afghanistan and others. If you include other Jihadi groups then we see that this is a rapidly growing global movement which has expanded massively since 9/11.   

[Loozik]

Then let the rest of current developers and some new developers takeover, and eventualy create TBF v2.

Why would you want TBF v2? There would be no guarantee that history doesn't repeat itself.

A headless solution for Bitcoin needs to be found.

[madmadmax]

meh, The US took out Bin Laden, all of his top leaders, and his entire Al Queda organization...

I don't know man. On Sept. 11, 2001 Al Qaeda had sent about 10K through their base camp. (Al Quaeda means military base camp) Today I don't think anyone even knows how many tens of thousands of fighters they have. They control territory in Africa, Yemen, Afghanistan and others. If you include other Jihadi groups then we see that this is a rapidly growing global movement which has expanded massively since 9/11.   

Depends on whether you give into the US propaganda or not, the US claims that every single group that rebels against them belongs to Al Qaeda and that Al Qaeda is a terrorist organization that has many independent cells in many countries which is a quite big claim, it completely ignores the fact that some people (or most) might want to rebel against the violent occupation, since really, there is no such thing as a peaceful occupation.

No need to get all tinfoil-hatted up, the US is strong but not THAT strong.

[davout]

A headless solution for Bitcoin needs to be found.

Why would you want a solution when there is no problem ?

[RodeoX]

meh, The US took out Bin Laden, all of his top leaders, and his entire Al Queda organization...

I don't know man. On Sept. 11, 2001 Al Qaeda had sent about 10K through their base camp. (Al Quaeda means military base camp) Today I don't think anyone even knows how many tens of thousands of fighters they have. They control territory in Africa, Yemen, Afghanistan and others. If you include other Jihadi groups then we see that this is a rapidly growing global movement which has expanded massively since 9/11.   

Depends on whether you give into the US propaganda or not, the US claims that every single group that rebels against them belongs to Al Qaeda and that Al Qaeda is a terrorist organization that has many independent cells in many countries which is a quite big claim, it completely ignores the fact that some people (or most) might want to rebel against the violent occupation, since really, there is no such thing as a peaceful occupation.

No need to get all tinfoil-hatted up, the US is strong but not THAT strong.

Fair points. "Jihad" is on a spectrum from peaceful resistance to combat. I was only thinking of groups that have publicly sworn an oath of allegiance to Al Quaeda, Al Shabab, for example; Or official franchises, such as Al Quaeda in the Islamic Magreb.    

[BurtW]

I agree that if TBF is cut down we should construct another one (or two) for that very purpose.

To quote from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy one of my favorite quotes in all of literature:

The President in particular is very much a figurehead-he wields no real power whatsoever. He is apparently chosen by the government, but the qualities he is required to display are not those of leadership but those of finely judged outrage. For this reason the President is always a controversial choice, always an infuriating but fascinating character. His job is not to wield power but to draw attention away from it. On those criteria Zaphod Beeblebrox is one of the most successful Presidents the Galaxy has ever had-he has already spent two of his ten Presidential years in prison for fraud. Very very few people realize that the President and the Government have virtually no power at all, and of these very few people only six know whence ultimate political power is wielded. Most of the others secretly believe that the ultimate decision-making process is handled by a computer. They couldn't be more wrong.

So to paraphrase:

The purpose of TBF is not to wield power but to draw attention away from it.

[RodeoX]

I agree that if TBF is cut down we should construct another one (or two) for that very purpose.

...

I'm not quite understanding. Do you consider it "cut down" because of this letter? If so then we are all cut down. If TBF is being called a money transmitter then I think all bitcoin peers will fall into this category. It appears that simply running the client may be interpreted as a crime in CA.

[BurtW]

I have an idea. If executed properly, it would add tremendeous value to Bitcoin. Here it is:

Let's send TBF members and all core devs to FEMA camp and have them locked there for a while, like few years. Then let the rest of current
developers and some new developers takeover, and eventualy create TBF v2.

The world would have a definitive proof that Bitcoin can not be killed by removing it's head. Who is with me?

I was responding to this post, which I see now was probably sarcasm.

At any rate my main point still stands.  TFB serves the useful puprose of drawing the attention of regulators away from the real power of Bitcoin, gives the regulators and lawyers something to do and makes them all feel they are doing their job, so I support TBF as a great decoy.

[QuestionAuthority]

I agree that if TBF is cut down we should construct another one (or two) for that very purpose.

...

I'm not quite understanding. Do you consider it "cut down" because of this letter? If so then we are all cut down. If TBF is being called a money transmitter then I think all bitcoin peers will fall into this category. It appears that simply running the client may be interpreted as a crime in CA.

You've just nailed my biggest fear exactly. If, due to lack of understanding, malice or unwillingness to learn, CA legislators found that the client is a basic tool of transmitting electronic funds which have the single purpose of converting to fiat then they could rule that everyone using a client is a money transmitter. Because of the high cost of entry (licensure) Bitcoin would become illegal for all but the wealthy. The EFT subset called ACH itself isn't fiat but it represents fiat as a system of credits and debits transmitted electronically. It only becomes fiat at the end of its journey at the other end of the transaction. What would happen if they look at the system and say, "well you have just invented another version of ACH and you need to be licensed for that. We believe that's stupid because we see the small economy and that we can buy something using only Bitcoin so it's distinct from a fiat transfer system but what will legislators believe. The bad news is that even this community values Bitcoin against the US dollar and is fixated on "what Bitcoin is worth today."

[Loozik]

A headless solution for Bitcoin needs to be found.

Why would you want a solution when there is no problem ?

I see a problem.

Politically curious businessmen merged with Bitcoin developers in one head called TBF. Politically curious businessmen at least theoretically can influence the work of the devs.

Bitcoin is of a threat to the people doing business as governments. People doing business as governments have almost all the guns, all the rockets, all the prisons, etc in the world. It will be easy for them to target one head, if / when they ever decide to kill / slow down Bitcoin development.

Bitcoin development should be headless / leaderless, therefore uneasy to kill / slow down.

[BurtW]

If someone wants to step up and be the figurehead of Bitcion I say go for it.  In reality Bitcoin is headless.

[BurtW]

You've just nailed my biggest fear exactly. If, due to lack of understanding, malice or unwillingness to learn, CA legislators found that the client is a basic tool of transmitting electronic funds which have the single purpose of converting to fiat then they could rule that everyone using a client is a money transmitter. Because of the high cost of entry (licensure) Bitcoin would become illegal for all but the wealthy. The EFT subset called ACH itself isn't fiat but it represents fiat as a system of credits and debits transmitted electronically. It only becomes fiat at the end of its journey at the other end of the transaction. What would happen if they look at the system and say, "well you have just invented another version of ACH and you need to be licensed for that. We believe that's stupid because we see the small economy and that we can buy something using only Bitcoin so it's distinct from a fiat transfer system but what will legislators believe. The bad news is that even this community values Bitcoin against the US dollar and is fixated on "what Bitcoin is worth today."

The fact is this may happen.  I personally don't think it will but it might.  We should prepare for it just in case.

[RodeoX]

I agree that if TBF is cut down we should construct another one (or two) for that very purpose.

...

I'm not quite understanding. Do you consider it "cut down" because of this letter? If so then we are all cut down. If TBF is being called a money transmitter then I think all bitcoin peers will fall into this category. It appears that simply running the client may be interpreted as a crime in CA.

You've just nailed my biggest fear exactly. If, due to lack of understanding, malice or unwillingness to learn, CA legislators found that the client is a basic tool of transmitting electronic funds...

That was a fear of mine as well. I thought FinCen's guidance ruled this out. It looks like it did not convince CA lawmakers. What a legal and economic mess California is. All their rules have made Cali a silly place to live.  

[molecular]

meh, The US took out Bin Laden, all of his top leaders, and his entire Al Queda organization and now we are hunting multiple groups and calling them all Al Quedas. Haters don't stop hating once they start.

"Al Qaeda" is (was) a CIA database.

Shortly before his untimely death, former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook told the House of Commons that “Al Qaeda” is not really a terrorist group but a database of international mujaheddin and arms smugglers used by the CIA and Saudis to funnel guerrillas, arms, and money into Soviet-occupied Afghanistan.

[QuestionAuthority]

I agree that if TBF is cut down we should construct another one (or two) for that very purpose.

...

I'm not quite understanding. Do you consider it "cut down" because of this letter? If so then we are all cut down. If TBF is being called a money transmitter then I think all bitcoin peers will fall into this category. It appears that simply running the client may be interpreted as a crime in CA.

You've just nailed my biggest fear exactly. If, due to lack of understanding, malice or unwillingness to learn, CA legislators found that the client is a basic tool of transmitting electronic funds...

That was a fear of mine as well. I thought FinCen's guidance ruled this out. It looks like it did not convince CA lawmakers. What a legal and economic mess California is. All their rules have made Cali a silly place to live.  

California is awful. I know I live here. People outside the US don't realize that each state can act like a separate country in legal matters and only when contested to the top or usurped by federal laws does the federal government matter and even then they can choose not to rule. I remember discussing the formation of the EU back in the 90's with an old friend that I used to visit in Berchtesgaden. He used the US as an example of what can be done with large territories. My response was, why do what we're doing? It's not working for us.

[molecular]

meh, The US took out Bin Laden, all of his top leaders, and his entire Al Queda organization...

I don't know man. On Sept. 11, 2001 Al Qaeda had sent about 10K through their base camp. (Al Quaeda means military base camp) Today I don't think anyone even knows how many tens of thousands of fighters they have. They control territory in Africa, Yemen, Afghanistan and others. If you include other Jihadi groups then we see that this is a rapidly growing global movement which has expanded massively since 9/11.    

ok, sorry for total OT and tinfoil hat time (but think about it, could make sense):

Al Qaeda fighters (mujahideen) were initially used (by the US) to fend off the Russians in Afghanistan in the 70s.

And they were also used by the US / the west / NATO / whoever in Lybia and now Syria to play the role of "freedom fighter rebels" provoking by violence the local leaders (Gadhafi and now Assad) to react and instill sektarianism and hatred among the population in general. This was done in order to have an excuse to bomb the shit out of the place and remove (i.e. hunt down and kill) the leader in order to be able to take over the resources (who controls Lybias banking sector? Who has Gadhafis gold? Who controls access to the oil and other resources?)

It's always the same and it's been going on and planned for a long time. Read John Perkins. He tells us Saddam Hussein initially worked for the CIA. Listen to General Wesley Clark, who describes something that happened shortly after 911:

said: "I just got this down from the Secretary of Defense Office today: This is a memo which describes how we're going to take out 7 countries in 5 years. Starting with Irak and then Syria, Lebanon, Lybia, Somalia, Sudan and then finally back to Iran.

Obviously they were also used to do 911.

Just saying: "they" are really "you"

(also interesting in this context: Stephan Molyneux: The true meaning of Startrek into Darkness)

[RodeoX]

Certainly the CIA did work with people who went on to form Al Quaeda, but the group formed after the Soviets left. (1989-90?) As in any war, you side with anyone willing to fight, or you lose.
I have to disagree with the idea that the CIA works with Al-Quaeda. I have friends and relatives in the intelligence community. They see the base as an ultimate enemy in every way. And anyone within AQ who was caught even trying to talk to a western intel agency would meet a horrible death.
Jihadists are religious nuts first and foremost. They are fighting a super-natural war with the forces of evil. Cooperating with the west is bargaining with the devil and cannot be allowed under any circumstance. 
I have met some of them myself on the battlefield and they are not afraid to die, nor do they make deals. You can convert to Islam, get out of the Muslim lands, or die. That is all AQ offers to westerners.   
   

[edd]

A headless solution for Bitcoin needs to be found.

Why would you want a solution when there is no problem ?

I see a problem.

Politically curious businessmen merged with Bitcoin developers in one head called TBF. Politically curious businessmen at least theoretically can influence the work of the devs.

Bitcoin is of a threat to the people doing business as governments. People doing business as governments have almost all the guns, all the rockets, all the prisons, etc in the world. It will be easy for them to target one head, if / when they ever decide to kill / slow down Bitcoin development.

Bitcoin development should be headless / leaderless, therefore uneasy to kill / slow down.

Gavin is the only developer on the Bitcoin Foundation Board. He's a great guy and I tend to agree with him almost every time he voices his opinion on something, but if he disappeared, Bitcoin development would continue and it would most likely continue in much the same direction it has so far. Someone else would step up to fill the "core developer" role and that person may or may not hold a position on the board.

I do think it's a good idea for at least one seat to be held by a developer so that there is always someone to give an informed opinion on what the protocol is or isn't capable of doing.

I've always believed the Bitcoin Foundation should be the public face of Bitcoin, sometimes acting like BurtW suggests (drawing fire from overzealous lawmakers and regulators) and sometimes taking on the role of a PR department, all the while doing as much as possible to provide the best possible environment for Bitcoin to flourish. It shouldn't be confused as part of Bitcoin, but rather as a guardian of Bitcoin.