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Author Topic: Bitcoin Foundation receives cease and desist order from California  (Read 48296 times)
*Bob (OP)
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June 23, 2013, 03:51:50 PM
#1

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2013/06/23/bitcoin-foundation-receives-cease-and-desist-order-from-california/

I think the State of California does not quite understand the function of the Bitcoin Foundation.
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June 23, 2013, 03:56:08 PM
#2

Californiaís Department of Financial Institutions decided to issue a cease and desist warning to conference organizer Bitcoin Foundation for allegedly engaging in the business of money transmission without a license or proper authorization

California is officially evil (if there was any doubt).

Californiaís Department of Financial Institutions is the protector of inefficient banking monopolies.
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June 23, 2013, 04:01:25 PM
#3

No wonder California is going bankrupt.
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June 23, 2013, 04:02:38 PM
#4

..and so the freedom of speech and liberty in America continues.  If the current NSA scandal is not enough.  
I wonder what effect this will have on the BTC price.  So far it has been remarkably stable.

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June 23, 2013, 04:11:17 PM
#5

It has to be a blanket action or else someone is smoking crack.

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June 23, 2013, 04:13:06 PM
#6

Whats the big effing deal? The notice says "MAY be involved..." Bitcoin foundation is clearly not a money transmitter. The notice requests a response, which I am sure the Bitcoin foundation will no doubt easily provide. Case closed. Nothing to see here.

It is very easy for a "whistle blower", anti-bitcoin organization, or even a competing company (Citibank EasyPay service, or PayPal anyone?) to complain to the appropriate State board, upon which they will send out a generic letter as an "exploratory bite."
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June 23, 2013, 04:13:26 PM
#7

NO! NO! what the hell is wrong with the Republic of California? Angry

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June 23, 2013, 04:14:33 PM
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Whats the big effing deal? The notice says "MAY be involved..." Bitcoin foundation is clearly not a money transmitter. The notice requests a response, which I am sure the Bitcoin foundation will no doubt easily provide. Case closed. Nothing to see here.

What if a small business without access to counsel receives such a notice? This is government bullying and is a big deal.

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June 23, 2013, 04:17:32 PM
#9

What if a small business without access to counsel receives such a notice? This is government bullying and is a big deal.
Those starting small businesses, especially in the United States, should assume that even if they do everything possible to obey the law they might get shut down anyway.

The obvious response is to organize your venture in such a way that you can operate regardless of the legality of what you're doing.
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June 23, 2013, 04:19:42 PM
#10

What if a small business without access to counsel receives such a notice? This is government bullying and is a big deal.
Those starting small businesses, especially in the United States, should assume that even if they do everything possible to obey the law they might get shut down anyway.

The obvious response is to organize your venture in such a way that you can operate regardless of the legality of what you're doing.
SR model is the way to go I suppose
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June 23, 2013, 04:20:10 PM
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Those starting small businesses, especially in the United States, should assume that even if they do everything possible to obey the law they might get shut down anyway.

The obvious response is to organize your venture in such a way that you can operate regardless of the legality of what you're doing.

I'm also talking about merchants accepting Bitcoins for payment of goods and services. If the BTC Foundation is a money transmitter, then evidently anyone can be.

The revolution begins with the mind and ends with the heart. Knowledge for all, accessible to all and shared by all
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June 23, 2013, 04:20:32 PM
#12

The Bitcoin Foundation needs to move elsewhere.

☐ California
☑ Texas
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June 23, 2013, 04:36:20 PM
#13

What does this mean? They want to make it so we can't transmit our coins? who do they think we are? Their nigger slaves?  Huh

The only reason I haven't moved out of the shit hole California is I still have a job here. Poverty except for the bribing monopolies.
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June 23, 2013, 04:38:19 PM
#14

But the Bitcoin Foundation might indeed get in trouble now. ("You can't stop Bitcoin from operating? Well that's not our problem! Powerlessness is no excuse!")

They should've known before. Or they had balls. Additionally to the facing of all the adverseness from here.  Wink

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June 23, 2013, 04:39:33 PM
#15

They probably thought the deep discount because McEnery Convention Center is under construction was good deal. Well that backfired! lol

This might actually be a good thing. TBF has been blustering for a while now about wanting to lobby Washington. Well here's their chance for a test case. All they need to do is prove to California govt that the membership of TBF does not run any money transmission business and they win. This could be the landmark case providing ammo to fight Washington. Or it could be that they are in way over their heads and didn't realize that Team San Jose is a government centric organization. lol

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June 23, 2013, 04:41:23 PM
#16

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2013/06/23/bitcoin-foundation-receives-cease-and-desist-order-from-california/

I think the State of California does not quite understand the function of the Bitcoin Foundation.

Never underestimate the power of dumb officials.

If I were associated with the Bitcoin Foundation, I would've moved to a friendlier place. Once some of the prominent members of the Bitcion Foundation stared into a prison wall confined in a cell, it doesn't help if they're 50 times smarter and that they're right. The dumfucks will make the inconvenience of such a nature that it could be life altering, and not for the better - for those involved.

If some power figure doesn't like the Bitcoin Foundation, there's nothing they can do.

Stay anonymous, and stay under the radar is my suggestion.
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June 23, 2013, 04:42:49 PM
#17

Looking forward to future developments regardless of outcome...

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June 23, 2013, 04:45:08 PM
#18

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2013/06/23/bitcoin-foundation-receives-cease-and-desist-order-from-california/

I think the State of California does not quite understand the function of the Bitcoin Foundation.

Never underestimate the power of dumb officials.

If I were associated with the Bitcoin Foundation, I would've moved to a friendlier place. Once some of the prominent members of the Bitcion Foundation stared into a prison wall confined in a cell, it doesn't help if they're 50 times smarter and that they're right. The dumfucks will make the inconvenience of such a nature that it could be life altering, and not for the better - for those involved.

If some power figure doesn't like the Bitcoin Foundation, there's nothing they can do.

Stay anonymous, and stay under the radar is my suggestion.

No, don't stay under the radar. Rent a government convention center and rub their noses in it. lol

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June 23, 2013, 04:57:49 PM
#19

Quote
Whats the big effing deal? The notice says "MAY be involved..." Bitcoin foundation is clearly not a money transmitter. The notice requests a response, which I am sure the Bitcoin foundation will no doubt easily provide. Case closed. Nothing to see here.

What if a small business without access to counsel receives such a notice? This is government bullying and is a big deal.


This happens all the time - and many business owners give up without a fight, when they see the resistance they're facing.
*Bob (OP)
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June 23, 2013, 04:58:52 PM
#20

Is the Bitcoin Foundation located in California?

The cease and desist letter was sent to an address in Seattle, Wa.
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June 23, 2013, 05:00:23 PM
#21

Is the Bitcoin Foundation located in California?

The cease and desist letter was sent to an address in Seattle, Wa.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2013/06/23/bitcoin-foundation-receives-cease-and-desist-order-from-california/
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June 23, 2013, 05:01:33 PM
#22

Is the Bitcoin Foundation located in California?

The cease and desist letter was sent to an address in Seattle, Wa.

Doesn't have to be in CA because they ran a business event there. Califuckme is one of the few states that will chase you to a foreign country for taxes. They act like a little country.

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June 23, 2013, 05:03:34 PM
#23

I'm guessing PayPal is behind this.
Maybe even Google with their Ripple crap.

QuarkCoin - what I believe bitcoin was intended to be. On reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/QuarkCoin/
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June 23, 2013, 05:04:35 PM
#24

tl;dr California thinks the Bitcoin Foundation controls bitcoin.

Clearly incorrect.


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June 23, 2013, 05:06:34 PM
#25

tl;dr California thinks the Bitcoin Foundation controls bitcoin.

Clearly incorrect.



Of course, but they don't know that. This really isn't a bad thing. It's a test case. Good, get it over with.

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June 23, 2013, 05:07:29 PM
#26

Good thing Gavin moved to Australia, right?
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June 23, 2013, 05:07:37 PM
#27

tl;dr California thinks the Bitcoin Foundation controls bitcoin.

Clearly incorrect.




jgarzik, you're a smart and intelligent man. There's lot of officials that will fuck with you and others in the foundation as they see fit. They don't care whether they're in the right or not.
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June 23, 2013, 05:13:00 PM
#28

Watch this one closely, people. Unlike other recent FinCEN guidance and regulatory comments, and law enforcement actions, this action from California does not fit the facts nor existing US law.

This simply shows a misunderstanding of what bitcoin is.

tl;dr: California thinks Bitcoin Foundation "runs bitcoin."


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June 23, 2013, 05:18:40 PM
#29

Watch this one closely, people. Unlike other recent FinCEN guidance and regulatory comments, and law enforcement actions, this action from California does not fit the facts nor existing US law.

This simply shows a misunderstanding of what bitcoin is.

tl;dr: California thinks Bitcoin Foundation "runs bitcoin."



LOL, that's SO retarded is almost unbelievable.

First thing I thought they heard about the Bitcoin Foundation having an Avalon Batch #1 and thus they are considered a MSB as per the latest FinCEN guidelines, in any case the true reasons must be the most retarded one... And now I see that it has to be that Califormia thinks BF "runs Bitcoin", nothing more retarded than that.

America, you never stop surprising me Grin

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June 23, 2013, 05:21:18 PM
#30

California DFI is notorious for its dysfunction and incompetence. Read this for a taste:

http://www.xconomy.com/san-francisco/2012/02/02/facecash-founder-claims-new-financial-regulation-is-unconstitutional/

As the Foundation is clearly not a money transmitter, this will go away but it will stand as a monument to the lazyness of the bureaucrats involved. It would have taken, what, one afternoons research to find out that this complaint is meritless? But they didn't bother.
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June 23, 2013, 05:22:19 PM
#31

Quote
BitCoin Foundation
71 Columbia Street, Suite 300
Seattle, WA 98104

The fact they couldn't even write Bitcoin properly tells us all we need to know about their level of understanding. F**king amateurs!
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June 23, 2013, 05:31:16 PM
#32

Maybe they think the Bitcoin Foundation was involved in "money transmission" because of the working Bitcoin ATM at the conference Huh

But, technically that wasn't the Bitcoin Foundation.. it was whoever owns the ATM..
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June 23, 2013, 05:35:26 PM
#33

California DFI is notorious for its dysfunction and incompetence. Read this for a taste:

http://www.xconomy.com/san-francisco/2012/02/02/facecash-founder-claims-new-financial-regulation-is-unconstitutional/

As the Foundation is clearly not a money transmitter, this will go away but it will stand as a monument to the lazyness of the bureaucrats involved. It would have taken, what, one afternoons research to find out that this complaint is meritless? But they didn't bother.

Everyone here knows how bad this state is. Didn't anyone think of that prior to holding the conference here? Out of 50 other places to go they keep coming back to California. Is it because Roger Ver has an outlet here? Any startup business working with money should know to stay out of the land of fruits and nuts. Read the daily paper.

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June 23, 2013, 05:39:09 PM
#34

Guys,

I don't think it matters what we think.

Shots have been fired.  Battle line are being drawn.

Ask the parents of dead Iraqi children if they thought the war on terror fought in there country was legal and/or valid.

The FED and now California are declaring war.  Most other states will fall in line.

Individual prosecution is next.
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June 23, 2013, 05:42:11 PM
#35

Guys,

I don't think it matters what we think.

Shots have been fired.  Battle line are being drawn.

Ask the parents of dead Iraqi children if they thought the war on terror fought in there country was legal and/or valid.

The FED and now California are declaring war.  Most other states will fall in line.

Individual prosecution is next.
At last one with clear view!
Someone said once in the Law subforum (can't remember who or find the post) that in Bitcoin business there are only 3 models:
1) Silk Road like
2) Regulated (and always be 'alert' when your masters change the rules of the game again)
3) Go offshore as stealth as possible

We all can see where it will end...
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June 23, 2013, 05:49:20 PM
#36

Ask the parents of dead Iraqi children if they thought the war on terror fought in there country was legal and/or valid.

The FED and now California are declaring war.  Most other states will fall in line.

Individual prosecution is next.

Let's try to be mature adults and keep some perspective.

Recent FinCEN guidances, DHS/etc. seizures, IRS/GAO discussions have all been in line with existing US law.  See my State of the Coin 2011 presentation and earlier forum discussions.  It has always been known that US individuals and companies must... do the obvious and follow US law.  For US bitcoin exchanges, for example, that likely means federal + 48 state licensing.  Enforcement actions like Liberty Reserve or Mutum Sigilium seemed to be clearly outside existing, known regulations.  You gotta expect law enforcement to... enforce the laws.

This California letter is so zany because it does not fit existing law or facts In My Opinion As A Non-Lawyer.

Each regulatory action needs careful consideration within the context of its country.  "ZOMG GOVERNMENT DEAD IRAQI CHILDREN" is about as far from thoughtful consideration as one can get.

Bitcoin is big, and we are getting a lot of regulator scrutiny right now, worldwide.




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June 23, 2013, 05:51:29 PM
#37

jgarzik

I am a mature adult and this is my perspective.

Thank you very much.

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June 23, 2013, 05:52:46 PM
#38

Ask the parents of dead Iraqi children if they thought the war on terror fought in there country was legal and/or valid.

The FED and now California are declaring war.  Most other states will fall in line.

Individual prosecution is next.

Let's try to be mature adults and keep some perspective.

Recent FinCEN guidances, DHS/etc. seizures, IRS/GAO discussions have all been in line with existing US law.  See my State of the Coin 2011 presentation and earlier forum discussions.  It has always been known that US individuals and companies must... do the obvious and follow US law.  For US bitcoin exchanges, for example, that likely means federal + 48 state licensing.  Enforcement actions like Liberty Reserve or Mutum Sigilium seemed to be clearly outside existing, known regulations.  You gotta expect law enforcement to... enforce the laws.

This California letter is so zany because it does not fit existing law or facts In My Opinion As A Non-Lawyer.

Each regulatory action needs careful consideration within the context of its country.  "ZOMG GOVERNMENT DEAD IRAQI CHILDREN" is about as far from thoughtful consideration as one can get.

Bitcoin is big, and we are getting a lot of regulator scrutiny right now, worldwide.
With all the respect to your technical skills I really doubt your political ones.
This from a non US European Balkan guy with centuries of Byzantine politics f@ckin up the continent.
You people there are so naive...sorry for my tone, I really like most of you but it has begun and you still negotiate!
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June 23, 2013, 05:53:45 PM
#39

Fun, we shall have some.

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June 23, 2013, 05:55:20 PM
#40

Haha, that was funny =)

However BF is useless vip club imho. Feds may shutdown them. I see no impact on bitcoin network at all.
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June 23, 2013, 05:56:40 PM
#41

Ask the parents of dead Iraqi children if they thought the war on terror fought in there country was legal and/or valid.

The FED and now California are declaring war.  Most other states will fall in line.

Individual prosecution is next.

Let's try to be mature adults and keep some perspective.

Recent FinCEN guidances, DHS/etc. seizures, IRS/GAO discussions have all been in line with existing US law.  See my State of the Coin 2011 presentation and earlier forum discussions.  It has always been known that US individuals and companies must... do the obvious and follow US law.  For US bitcoin exchanges, for example, that likely means federal + 48 state licensing.  Enforcement actions like Liberty Reserve or Mutum Sigilium seemed to be clearly outside existing, known regulations.  You gotta expect law enforcement to... enforce the laws.

This California letter is so zany because it does not fit existing law or facts In My Opinion As A Non-Lawyer.

Each regulatory action needs careful consideration within the context of its country.  "ZOMG GOVERNMENT DEAD IRAQI CHILDREN" is about as far from thoughtful consideration as one can get.

Bitcoin is big, and we are getting a lot of regulator scrutiny right now, worldwide.
With all the respect to your technical skills I really doubt your political ones.
This from a non US European Balkan guy with centuries of Byzantine politics f@ckin up the continent.
You people there are so naive...sorry for my tone, I really like most of you but it has begun and you still negotiate!
BF is Goethe's Faust...
Oh Europe! What a dirty old bitch...
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June 23, 2013, 05:58:17 PM
#42

Haha, that was funny =)

However BF is useless vip club imho. Feds may shutdown them. I see no impact on bitcoin network at all.
They do pay the Bitcoin lead developer's salary.
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June 23, 2013, 05:59:18 PM
#43

Obviously it is just an excuse, the true driven power behind these movements is worth noting. I just could not find any reason that anyone on the earth need to hate bitcoin, especially banks and governments, they need bitcoin to rescue them from the inevitable collapsing of bond bubble and sovereign default  Roll Eyes

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June 23, 2013, 05:59:30 PM
#44

Haha, that was funny =)

However BF is useless vip club imho. Feds may shutdown them. I see no impact on bitcoin network at all.
They do pay the Bitcoin lead developer's salary.
Is that all?
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June 23, 2013, 06:01:25 PM
#45

Haha, that was funny =)

However BF is useless vip club imho. Feds may shutdown them. I see no impact on bitcoin network at all.
They do pay the Bitcoin lead developer's salary.
So ?

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June 23, 2013, 06:02:36 PM
#46

Let's try to be mature adults and keep some perspective.

Recent FinCEN guidances, DHS/etc. seizures, IRS/GAO discussions have all been in line with existing US law.  See my State of the Coin 2011 presentation and earlier forum discussions.  It has always been known that US individuals and companies must... do the obvious and follow US law.  For US bitcoin exchanges, for example, that likely means federal + 48 state licensing.  Enforcement actions like Liberty Reserve or Mutum Sigilium seemed to be clearly outside existing, known regulations.  You gotta expect law enforcement to... enforce the laws.
That's all well and good except we all know they don't enforce the laws uniformly.

They are more than happy to turn a blind eye while Wachovia and HSBC launder money for some of the most violent drug cartels in the world, the very same ones that turned Mexico into a war zone, in exchange for a trivial cut of the profits.

Anyone who isn't a next door neighbour, college buddy, or former employer/employee of their bosses gets the fine toothed comb treatment and had damn well better cross every t and dot every i or else.

Their words tell us they are public servants impartially enforcing the law for the public interest, their actions say they are gangsters operating a protection racket on behalf of their Manhattan associates.
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June 23, 2013, 06:02:41 PM
#47

What really useful do they do from this list?
https://bitcoinfoundation.org/about/
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June 23, 2013, 06:03:02 PM
#48

Blitz means they want to cut the head to finish BTC quick. Dream on!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lernaean_Hydra
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June 23, 2013, 06:03:08 PM
#49

Haha, that was funny =)

However BF is useless vip club imho. Feds may shutdown them. I see no impact on bitcoin network at all.
They do pay the Bitcoin lead developer's salary.
So ?

Exactly!

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June 23, 2013, 06:04:32 PM
#50

They do pay the Bitcoin lead developer's salary.
I'll sign up to help pay Gavin's salary directly if he ever asks for it. All he needs to do is set up a ReDonate account or equivalent.
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June 23, 2013, 06:14:55 PM
#51

Haha, that was funny =)

However BF is useless vip club imho. Feds may shutdown them. I see no impact on bitcoin network at all.
They do pay the Bitcoin lead developer's salary.

They pay Gavin in BTC.

I don't think there would be any jurisdiction until he converts to USD - and at that point, it should be unrelated to the Foundation.
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June 23, 2013, 06:23:39 PM
#52

For anyone who wants to read the document:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/149335233/CA-State-Cease-and-Desist-May-30

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June 23, 2013, 06:28:49 PM
#53


Uh oh, look at page 6. They're fucked.

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June 23, 2013, 06:30:46 PM
#54

I'll sign up to help pay Gavin's salary directly if he ever asks for it. All he needs to do is set up a ReDonate account or equivalent.

ReDonate is a better effort than most.  Typically, donations are so unpredictable that no sane developer would rely on them for income, especially if they are supporting a family.  ReDonate solves some of those problems, but not necessarily all.  Getting recurring donations working at all was a big step.  However more ideal -- and what Bitcoin Foundation can provide -- is
  • stable salary with benefits
  • handles the burst-y ebb and flow of donations
  • mostly* frees the engineer from drudgery of constantly campaigning for funds

Donations and bounties are rarely effective in getting and giving long term commitments to open source engineers.


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June 23, 2013, 06:36:06 PM
#55

A HackerNews comment making the rounds:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5928480

Quote

Most of the comments here are not particularly well-informed and should be ignored.

Yes, the Bitcoin Foundation (probably--I don't know anything about them other than what I've read) isn't strictly speaking a money transmitter. Yes, the California Department of Financial Institutions--which will cease to exist in 7 days when it gets merged into the California Department of Corporations--is totally ignorant of Bitcoin. But they know the law pretty well. Especially the one that they wrote. (See the name Robert Venchiarutti on the letter? He's really the one behind it. The DFI lawyers just do what they're told. They don't even like the law. Venchiarutti actually wrote it, with the help of TMSRT's lobbyists.)

That being said, the law to worry about here isn't even the one cited. It is, as I've stated quite frequently, 18 U.S.C. ß 1960 (http://www.plainsite.org/laws/index.html?id=14426). And that law says that you don't have to be a money transmitter to get a letter such as the one received by the Bitcoin Foundation (http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/149335233?access_key=key-2l...).

"(a) Whoever knowingly conducts, controls, manages, supervises, directs, or owns all or part of an unlicensed money transmitting business..."

The question then becomes whether the Bitcoin Foundation has any "control" or "direction" over its members and/or affiliates, who are most clearly in violation of the law under section (b). These words are vague. It could be argued that it does.
[...]

BIG FAT WARNING/DISCLAIMER:  This is Aaron Greenspan, who has his own "interesting" legal history etc.


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June 23, 2013, 06:38:08 PM
#56


Nice of them to include Google advertisements in their legal document.

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June 23, 2013, 06:39:30 PM
#57

Ahahah probably they think that bitcoin is made and controlled by "bitcoin foundation" like normal software

Ahahah they are funny  Cheesy

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June 23, 2013, 06:42:30 PM
#58


Nice of them to include Google advertisements in their legal document.

TBF didn't pay for any advertising for the conference did it?

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June 23, 2013, 06:43:56 PM
#59

A HackerNews comment making the rounds:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5928480

Quote

Most of the comments here are not particularly well-informed and should be ignored.

Yes, the Bitcoin Foundation (probably--I don't know anything about them other than what I've read) isn't strictly speaking a money transmitter. Yes, the California Department of Financial Institutions--which will cease to exist in 7 days when it gets merged into the California Department of Corporations--is totally ignorant of Bitcoin. But they know the law pretty well. Especially the one that they wrote. (See the name Robert Venchiarutti on the letter? He's really the one behind it. The DFI lawyers just do what they're told. They don't even like the law. Venchiarutti actually wrote it, with the help of TMSRT's lobbyists.)

That being said, the law to worry about here isn't even the one cited. It is, as I've stated quite frequently, 18 U.S.C. ß 1960 (http://www.plainsite.org/laws/index.html?id=14426). And that law says that you don't have to be a money transmitter to get a letter such as the one received by the Bitcoin Foundation (http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/149335233?access_key=key-2l...).

"(a) Whoever knowingly conducts, controls, manages, supervises, directs, or owns all or part of an unlicensed money transmitting business..."

The question then becomes whether the Bitcoin Foundation has any "control" or "direction" over its members and/or affiliates, who are most clearly in violation of the law under section (b). These words are vague. It could be argued that it does.
[...]

BIG FAT WARNING/DISCLAIMER:  This is Aaron Greenspan, who has his own "interesting" legal history etc.



Bingo.

The point is, The Bitcoin Foundation is a conglomerate of mtgox, bitpay and possible others subject to money transmitter regulations.
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June 23, 2013, 06:47:28 PM
#60

The first comment on Hacker News clears a lot of this up:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5927892

Quote
Most of the comments here are not particularly well-informed and should be ignored.

Not as much as you think.  Google around for Aaron Greenspan (ThinkComp), the author.

(and PS, this duplicates an earlier post in this thread ;p)


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June 23, 2013, 06:56:38 PM
#61

Lol oops, totally missed that other post.
I always thought Chuck Schumer would be the guy to lead the destruction of bitcoin via government fascism. What's up with California they are either broke and desperate for even the tiny bit of change leaking out of the economy via bitcoin or they are run by Paypal lobbyists.
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June 23, 2013, 06:58:21 PM
#62

I'll sign up to help pay Gavin's salary directly if he ever asks for it. All he needs to do is set up a ReDonate account or equivalent.

ಠ_ಠ

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June 23, 2013, 07:00:21 PM
#63

Do we have any actual lawyer amidst us who can shed some light?
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June 23, 2013, 07:02:14 PM
#64

Marco Santori posts here regularly:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206305.msg2158027#msg2158027

If he is online maybe he can offer an opinion (if he has not already been retained).

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June 23, 2013, 07:02:51 PM
#65

Do we have any actual lawyer amidst us who can shed some light?

That's where this needs to be. Why doesn't some mod move it to the legal sub?

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June 23, 2013, 07:03:18 PM
#66

Bitcoin exposes how important control of the monetary system is.
I would suggest that whoever is actively involved in the Bitcoin Foundation move out of the US.

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June 23, 2013, 07:05:24 PM
#67

You people there are so naive...sorry for my tone, I really like most of you but it has begun and you still negotiate!

Naivetť doesn't even begin to account for the level of delusion in some sectors of this community.

Most of you will never realize, until it is too late, that "law enforcement" almost universally have below-average IQ, zero compunction, and usually some type of un-diagnosed mental illness.  And it doesn't matter whether you're talking about the ones that sit in cars all day eating donuts, or the ones that sit in offices with air conditioning.

Two weeks ago, I had a Federal agent lie straight to my face, then turn around five minutes later and do the exact same thing he claimed he would not do.  When I pointed this out to him, he actually looked surprised, like physically shocked, as though some other personality had been the one to do it.

These people peddle bullshit as a profession.  Their only measure of success is whether you cooperate with them.  Every step you take towards that end is just moving you closer to their end goal of complete control.

You gave them a "foundation" to target and attempt to gain control over.  Don't act surprised now that they actually do so.

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June 23, 2013, 07:14:00 PM
#68


Most of you will never realize, until it is too late, that "law enforcement" almost universally have below-average IQ, zero compunction, and usually some type of un-diagnosed mental illness.  And it doesn't matter whether you're talking about the ones that sit in cars all day eating donuts, or the ones that sit in offices with air conditioning.


+1 Agree!

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June 23, 2013, 07:14:40 PM
#69

You people there are so naive...sorry for my tone, I really like most of you but it has begun and you still negotiate!
You gave them a "foundation" to target and attempt to gain control over.  Don't act surprised now that they actually do so.
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June 23, 2013, 07:19:55 PM
#70

ReDonate is a better effort than most.  Typically, donations are so unpredictable that no sane developer would rely on them for income, especially if they are supporting a family.  ReDonate solves some of those problems, but not necessarily all.  Getting recurring donations working at all was a big step.  However more ideal -- and what Bitcoin Foundation can provide -- is
  • stable salary with benefits
  • handles the burst-y ebb and flow of donations
  • mostly* frees the engineer from drudgery of constantly campaigning for funds

Donations and bounties are rarely effective in getting and giving long term commitments to open source engineers.
Sounds like an opportunity for someone to code a better solution.

In the meantime, one developer is able to use the existing tools to successfully predict (a portion of) future donation income.

To make the model more successful, he could set a pledge goal and have a web site that automatically displays how close he is to reaching that goal. That shouldn't be difficult to solve via coding.
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June 23, 2013, 07:23:59 PM
#71

Is Peter Vessenes still the head of TBF?

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June 23, 2013, 07:40:50 PM
#72

They shouldn't have set up the foundation in the first place - it just put a big target on their back. All these orgs are weak points.

OK i accept the need for some gateways - but they all need to be located outside the United States.

To deal with this all they need to do is formally dissolve the foundation and then they arn't breaking any law California has invented. After all Bitcoin doesn't need the foundation - it survived 5 years without it.

 
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June 23, 2013, 07:52:50 PM
#73

Hi everyone. I have not been retained for this matter.  I believe the Foundation has its own competent legal counsel, so I'm happy to weigh in on this independently.  

One of three things just happened:

1) California's DFI just derped. Hard.  Someone over there (whether it's Crayton, Venchiarutti, both or someone senior to them) believes that the Foundation actively issues, exchanges or transmits BTC or fiat.  They might have even confused the Bitcoin Foundation with the Bitcoin Project.  ...Let's get serious for a minute: These men are so ignorant as to believe this.  To the contrary, they strike me as fairly intelligent people who would have done their diligence before sending a C&D. I think (1) is out.

2) DFI did not derp at all.  DFI believes that the Foundation's passive role in the industry means it "conducts, controls, manages, supervises, directs, or owns" a money transmission business.  The Foundation is about to face a very real legal battle with DFI fighting this theory.  I don't believe this is the case either.  To use a popular example: the RIAA does not conduct, control, manage or supervise any recording business.  It's the other way around. EMI, Sony, UMG and its other constituent businesses control the RIAA.  I don't think DFI has any evidence to the contrary. I think (2) is out as well.

3) DFI is being political.  It doesn't know for sure what the Foundation does, doesn't know for sure whether it has its hands in any money transmission business, doesn't know the extent of its relationship with the Bitcoin Project and doesn't know the extent of its relationship with its constituent businesses.  I would wager that only Foundation insiders (that's a very short list) know this.  DFI isn't going to sit on the sidelines while this information stays in the Foundation's black box.  Instead, it has begun a dialogue with the Foundation via a very special political method: a nasty letter.  The Foundation is now compelled to respond and show their cards to a certain degree.  Not legally compelled, of course, but practically compelled to explain their role in detail, and perhaps even provide evidence for their characterizations.  By opening this dialogue, DFI will not be caught with its pants down when "this whole Bitcoin thing" gets big.  To be sure, it is discharging its regulatory and investigative duties.  Practically, though, it's doing a little CYA to put itself in a good position to say "We got out in front of this early." You've all probably gathered that this (3) is precisely what I think is going on.  (1) and (2) above don't strike me as likely at all.

Some of you seem to believe that a battle line has been drawn, that the regulators are now on the offensive against BTC, and will conduct your businesses accordingly.  I would caution against that approach.  I don't think yours is a "conspiracy theory", but like conspiracy theories, this approach presumes that there is some powerful group, or at least a loose association of people at the helm of the regulation, who are steering the course of BTC in a way that favors their stakeholders - banks, paypal, Western Union, etc.  I think that the truth is actually more terrifying: the regulation is rudderless.  There is nobody and no particular group of people at the helm.  There are only competing interests, like banks, bitcoiners, money transmitters and legislators who are all pulling at their own oars, trying to propel the ship in their own preferred direction.  There is no course plotted.  The ship will move forward, that's for sure.  But the strongest, loudest and most dominant rowers will determine its path.

It will be interesting to see if this is part of a larger, blanket effort.  The coming days will tell.

Marco Santori is a lawyer, but not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.  If you do have specific questions, though, please don't hesitate to PM me.  We've learned this forum isn't 100% secure, so you might prefer to email me.  Maybe I can help!  Depending upon your jurisdiction, this post might be construed as attorney advertising, so: attorney advertising Smiley
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June 23, 2013, 08:00:06 PM
#74

Hi everyone. I have not been retained for this matter.  I believe the Foundation has its own competent legal counsel, so I'm happy to weigh in on this independently.  

One of three things just happened:

1) California's DFI just derped. Hard.  Someone over there (whether it's Crayton, Venchiarutti, both or someone senior to them) believes that the Foundation actively issues, exchanges or transmits BTC or fiat.  They might have even confused the Bitcoin Foundation with the Bitcoin Project.  ...Let's get serious for a minute: These men are so ignorant as to believe this.  To the contrary, they strike me as fairly intelligent people who would have done their diligence before sending a C&D. I think (1) is out.

2) DFI did not derp at all.  DFI believes that the Foundation's passive role in the industry means it "conducts, controls, manages, supervises, directs, or owns" a money transmission business.  The Foundation is about to face a very real legal battle with DFI fighting this theory.  I don't believe this is the case either.  To use a popular example: the RIAA does not conduct, control, manage or supervise any recording business.  It's the other way around. EMI, Sony, UMG and its other constituent businesses control the RIAA.  I don't think DFI has any evidence to the contrary. I think (2) is out as well.

3) DFI is being political.  It doesn't know for sure what the Foundation does, doesn't know for sure whether it has its hands in any money transmission business, doesn't know the extent of its relationship with the Bitcoin Project and doesn't know the extent of its relationship with its constituent businesses.  I would wager that only Foundation insiders (that's a very short list) know this.  DFI isn't going to sit on the sidelines while this information stays in the Foundation's black box.  Instead, it has begun a dialogue with the Foundation via a very special political method: a nasty letter.  The Foundation is now compelled to respond and show their cards to a certain degree.  Not legally compelled, of course, but practically compelled to explain their role in detail, and perhaps even provide evidence for their characterizations.  By opening this dialogue, DFI will not be caught with its pants down when "this whole Bitcoin thing" gets big.  To be sure, it is discharging its regulatory and investigative duties.  Practically, though, it's doing a little CYA to put itself in a good position to say "We got out in front of this early." You've all probably gathered that this (3) is precisely what I think is going on.  (1) and (2) above don't strike me as likely at all.

Some of you seem to believe that a battle line has been drawn, that the regulators are now on the offensive against BTC, and will conduct your businesses accordingly.  I would caution against that approach.  I don't think yours is a "conspiracy theory", but like conspiracy theories, this approach presumes that there is some powerful group, or at least a loose association of people at the helm of the regulation, who are steering the course of BTC in a way that favors their stakeholders - banks, paypal, Western Union, etc.  I think that the truth is actually more terrifying: the regulation is rudderless.  There is nobody and no particular group of people at the helm.  There are only competing interests, like banks, bitcoiners, money transmitters and legislators who are all pulling at their own oars, trying to propel the ship in their own preferred direction.  There is no course plotted.  The ship will move forward, that's for sure.  But the strongest, loudest and most dominant rowers will determine its path.

It will be interesting to see if this is part of a larger, blanket effort.  The coming days will tell.

Reading the letter, it seems they are in direct violation of CA Code 2030. Could you shed some light on this?

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June 23, 2013, 08:01:15 PM
#75

 I think that the truth is actually more terrifying: the regulation is rudderless.  


This... It's perversely comforting to imagine there's a cabal of power players running the world from the shadows with uncanny ingenuity. In that scenario, you may not agree with the direction, but at least someone competent is at the helm. The scarier, more realistic option is what MSantori proposes, that no-one qualified is running the show.

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June 23, 2013, 08:03:29 PM
#76

I don't think yours is a "conspiracy theory", but like conspiracy theories, this approach presumes that there is some powerful group, or at least a loose association of people at the helm of the regulation, who are steering the course of BTC in a way that favors their stakeholders - banks, paypal, Western Union, etc.  I think that the truth is actually more terrifying: the regulation is rudderless.  There is nobody and no particular group of people at the helm.

Centralized money-printing sets the course of the economy, and of the government that depends upon it.  The direction is towards centralization and control.  It isn't a "conspiracy theory".  Ben Bernanke gives regular press conferences.  It's the entire reason Bitcoin even exists.

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June 23, 2013, 08:03:46 PM
#77

The letter is dated 30th May ... why so much fuss today ?
Surely discussions have been going on for more than 3 weeks already

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June 23, 2013, 08:11:30 PM
#78

There must be hundres of these departments.
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June 23, 2013, 08:18:02 PM
#79

Two decades ago I attended a professional conference in San Francisco, and afterward I took my daughter to see the museum in the old mint building.  At that time, i was interested in the definition of a hard currency and noted in particular that there were some currencies from Utah on display that were backed by salted pork, and other various currencies, issued by independent banks or businesses.

One of many differing stories tells of a time when the Bank of Hibernia in New Orleans issued a bank note printed in French and English: different people would identify one side or the other as the front.  The French side said "dix" and the economic zone defined wherever this note was freely accepted in trade was Dixie.

It is almost certainly an interesting piece of trivia to anyone interested in Bitcoin to know about the transition from independent banks issuing bank notes to the current centralized situation.

I think that a well researched and widely comprehended understanding of this situation would add valuable perspective to Bitcoin discussions.

I try to be respectful and informed.
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June 23, 2013, 08:22:42 PM
#80

They probably thought the deep discount because McEnery Convention Center is under construction was good deal. Well that backfired! lol

This might actually be a good thing. TBF has been blustering for a while now about wanting to lobby Washington. Well here's their chance for a test case. All they need to do is prove to California govt that the membership of TBF does not run any money transmission business and they win. This could be the landmark case providing ammo to fight Washington. Or it could be that they are in way over their heads and didn't realize that Team San Jose is a government centric organization. lol

a money transmission business has to involve FIAT. thats the biggest thing to ever think about when bitcoin users are concerned. if you dont touch fiat your not a money transmitter. end off..

although TBF does not as part of their business trade bitcoins for FIAT for any customer. they do/must at some point convert bitcoin to FIAT to pay for things like convention halls...

it is also known that any amount of FIAT wire transferred over $1000 in one go or $15000 slowly over a year would be classed as a business transaction, as oppose to personal transactions (wages).

so TBF needs to clarify when it converted the bitcoin to FIAT to pay for the convention hall.. what was the purpose of the transaction. and the answer would be a purchase of a good or service and not a transmission of funds.

to clarify this they would need to show all the hands that touched the FIAT between TBF and the convention centre. hopefully they used bitinstant bank accounts in the process, as one of the BF's founders is a bitinstant founder. which is fully licenced.

if however gavin found some joebloggs in california and handed them many thousands of BTC in exchange for 10's of thousands of dollars to then use for the convention centre. then TBF has more to explain.

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June 23, 2013, 08:27:30 PM
#81

Reposting this for emphasis:

With all the respect to your technical skills I really doubt your political ones.
This from a non US European Balkan guy with centuries of Byzantine politics f@ckin up the continent.
You people there are so naive...sorry for my tone, I really like most of you but it has begun and you still negotiate!

Klee is 200% correct. The C&D letter to Tangible Cryptography from the Commonwealth of Virginia and now this letter from the State of California to The Bitcoin Foundation are aggressive actions from entities that won't negotiate.

And yes, Americans are politically naive. Those of my fellow Americans that think they'll be ok if they follow the law appear to be completely ignorant of the larger fact that we now  live in an age of arbitrary authority. It doesn't matter what the law actually is. All that matters is the intention of the person or the agency wielding the law in your direction at that particular moment. The law won't save Bitcoin because the law is trying quash Bitcoin.

If you want to know what their endgame for Bitcoin is, look at the history of the Liberty Dollar:

Quote
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June 23, 2013, 08:32:28 PM
#82

watchin..
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June 23, 2013, 08:40:31 PM
#83


If you want to know what their endgame for Bitcoin is, look at the history of the Liberty Dollar:

Quote

DO NOT compare bitcoin with liberty dollar.
the issue with liberty dollar was the fact that the metal coins were made to replicate a actual FIAT dollar coin. which comes under counterfeiting laws.

bitcoin is not a counterfeit of FIAT. its a totally unrelated and new currency. (well the thailand authorities could take BTC symbol a bit personal. but its still not as bad as the liberty dollar)

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June 23, 2013, 08:40:59 PM
#84

Is Peter Vessenes still the head of TBF?

He's the Executive Director, Chairman of the Board, and Treasurer.

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June 23, 2013, 08:41:45 PM
#85

I don't think yours is a "conspiracy theory", but like conspiracy theories, this approach presumes that there is some powerful group, or at least a loose association of people at the helm of the regulation, who are steering the course of BTC in a way that favors their stakeholders - banks, paypal, Western Union, etc.  I think that the truth is actually more terrifying: the regulation is rudderless.  There is nobody and no particular group of people at the helm.

Centralized money-printing sets the course of the economy, and of the government that depends upon it.  The direction is towards centralization and control.  It isn't a "conspiracy theory".  Ben Bernanke gives regular press conferences.  It's the entire reason Bitcoin even exists.

This +1,000

US Government is acting beyond stupid, as usual. Let's them shut down the Bitcoin Foundation. Then they can declare "war" to a p2p protocol. That's gonna be funny, I'm waiting.

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June 23, 2013, 08:48:37 PM
#86


If you want to know what their endgame for Bitcoin is, look at the history of the Liberty Dollar:

Quote

DO NOT compare bitcoin with liberty dollar.
the issue with liberty dollar was the fact that the metal coins were made to replicate a actual FIAT dollar coin. which comes under counterfeiting laws.

bitcoin is not a counterfeit of FIAT. its a totally unrelated and new currency. (well the thailand authorities could take BTC symbol a bit personal. but its still not as bad as the liberty dollar)
I disagree, it seems government always have an excuse. Why the "laws" didn't apply for hsbc or similar cases?

You are right, comparing bitcoin with libery dollar is nonsense: bitcoin can't be shut down like liberty dollar

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June 23, 2013, 08:54:31 PM
#87

Is Peter Vessenes still the head of TBF?

He's the Executive Director, Chairman of the Board, and Treasurer.

Thanks, I never know how frequently these websites are updated. So, he's the one you want to google for info about what's happening.

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June 23, 2013, 08:55:17 PM
#88

This... It's perversely comforting to imagine there's a cabal of power players running the world from the shadows with uncanny ingenuity.

Ingenuity no, power yes. Power rests on cunning, a low level of intelligence shared by snakes, spiders, wolves, foxes, birds of prey, etc.

It's a well known fact forgotten by most that whoever controls the volume of currency and credit in a country also controls pricing and all commerce in that country. It's also a well known fact that there actually is a small cabal that has a monopoly on the issuing of currency and credit in the US.

They're very cunning and some of them are even smart.
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June 23, 2013, 08:58:38 PM
#89

bitcoin can't be shut down like liberty dollar

They don't need to shutdown Bitcoin. They can threaten prison for developers and businessmen.

"BITCOIN MOGUL BUSTED IN SUSPECTED TERRORIST DRUG PORN SCAM"

It's within the realm of possibility at this point. With CA in the mix now, they're not messing around.
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June 23, 2013, 09:04:25 PM
#90

Ingenuity no, power yes. Power rests on cunning, a low level of intelligence shared by snakes, spiders, wolves, foxes, birds of prey, etc.
People who have political power have it because first they are the type of person who desires this power, and second because they are the kind of person willing and able to do what is necessary to achieve and maintain it.

Because the act of achieving power over other people automatically puts the power-seeker in an adversarial relationship with every human being on the planet, it's an unstable condition which requires active effort to maintain.

Natural selection removes from the political sphere those individuals who are not successful at identify and countering threats to their power, so the people who remain are the ones who can do this, consciously or (more likely) unconsciously.

They don't need to collaborate or conspire in order to attack threats to their power - doing so comes naturally to them. They respond in predictable ways to certain stimuli because they all share a common set of motivations centred around their common desire to hold on to their power.
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June 23, 2013, 09:10:26 PM
#91

bitcoin can't be shut down like liberty dollar

They don't need to shutdown Bitcoin. They can threaten prison for developers and businessmen.

"BITCOIN MOGUL BUSTED IN SUSPECTED TERRORIST DRUG PORN SCAM"

It's within the realm of possibility at this point. With CA in the mix now, they're not messing around.

Well, that scenario it's been likely from the very beginning. That's why Satoshi is a pseudonym and he/them used Tor, right?

Sooner or later, Bitcoin may face that kind of hostility. But it was designed to be resilient to that type of attack. The sheeps will say "oh, it's the coin of the pedophiles, stay away from it, just use the USD, the land of the freedom bill that it's used only by honest people and that cannot be used by pedo-bears".

But IMO Bitcoin will survive to that and raise stronger. There are a lot of sheeps, especially in the US, but there is also a lot of people who are not sheep and want to use REAL money like Bitcoin.

In my opinion Bitcoin needs to be stress-tested. This experiment need to resist a ban to be really successful.

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June 23, 2013, 09:14:40 PM
#92

They don't need to collaborate or conspire in order to attack threats to their power - doing so comes naturally to them.

Exactly. It's how the pack mentality operates. No one needs to teach pack animals or gang members. They either become the alpha, fall into line or they're out of the pack.
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June 23, 2013, 09:18:16 PM
#93

But IMO Bitcoin will survive to that and raise stronger. There are a lot of sheeps, especially in the US, but there is also a lot of people who are not sheep and want to use REAL money like Bitcoin.

Yes, the tech will survive. It might even become better. I have far more faith in human ingenuity and spirits like those that created Bitcoin and those of us that use it than I do in the unthinking brutality of those that feel a need to "regulate" everyone else.
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June 23, 2013, 09:24:50 PM
#94

the US government only has control over US dollars.. end of

they do not have control over the euro:
and everyone knows about the number of red light districts, cafe's selling drugs and also how oil tycoons may be thinking of dealing in euros as oppose to dollars. yet the US government cant do anything about that.

they do not have control over the Yen:
and everyone knows that most of their electrical products come from japan and having the ability to control yen would make supplier costs even cheaper.  yet the US government cant do anything about that.

they do not have control over the thai baht:
and everyone knows that most of the counterfeit goods originating from thailand. and to add to this counterfeit goods in Beijing, cambodia at some point passes through thailand. making thailand a fashion threat. yet the US government cant do anything about that.

i can give many examples of other currencies being related to illegal activities.. mexico=drugs, iraq, wars/weapons etc..

the point is when the currency is involved the government cannot do anything about a currency they do not own.

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June 23, 2013, 09:26:30 PM
#95

the US government only has control over US dollars.. end of

they do not have control over the euro:
and everyone knows about the number of red light districts, cafe's selling drugs and also how oil tycoons may be thinking of dealing in euros as oppose to dollars. yet the US government cant do anything about that.

they do not have control over the Yen:
and everyone knows that most of their electrical products come from japan and having the ability to control yen would make supplier costs even cheaper.  yet the US government cant do anything about that.

they do not have control over the thai baht:
and everyone knows that most of the counterfeit goods originating thailand. and to add to this counterfeit goods in Beijing, cambodia at some point passes through thailand. making thailand a fashion threat. yet the US government cant do anything about that.

i can give many examples of other currencies being related to illegal actuvities.. mexico=drugs, iraq, wars/weapons etc..

the point is when the currency is involved the government cannot do anything about a currency they do not own.

well they are doing pretty well against iran's currency
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June 23, 2013, 09:26:58 PM
#96

You are Free... to do as we tell you.



        ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
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   ▄█████████████████▌
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▐███████████████████████
▐███████████████████████
 ██████████████████████▀
 ▀████████████████████▀
  ▀██████████████████
    ▀▀████████████▀▀
.
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June 23, 2013, 09:29:01 PM
#97

Overpaid government demons in action. Best thing is, ignore it and move on. Let them issue an arrest warrant for S. Nakamoto  Roll Eyes

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June 23, 2013, 09:45:32 PM
#98

I believe that's someone who want to buy coins cheap Cheesy

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June 23, 2013, 10:39:09 PM
#99

The Bitcoin Foundation needs to move elsewhere.

☐ California
☑ Texas

New Hampshire, actually.

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June 23, 2013, 10:51:42 PM
#100

Interesting thread (one of several on the topic here), but the comments to the Forbes article itself are also worth a read.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2013/06/23/bitcoin-foundation-receives-cease-and-desist-order-from-california/

On balance, there is a lot of support for BTC from the Forbes readership, Matonis' readership at least.

I don't think I've seen anyone comment anywhere to the effect that California has done something good with this move. I wonder how it will play with the public at large.

And of course, as always, who is doing what to whom? No "aha" light goes on for me yet.

Maybe it really is as tawdry as this Forbes commenter speculates:

"Californicatin 1 hour ago

You know, as a former employee of the State of California, I have to say all I see when I look at this is a pleading for money by way of the sentence: ďFor more details on applying for a money transmission business license in CaliforniaÖ.Ē. This most definitely feels like a form letter, as well.

I mean, it was sent almost exactly one month prior to the end of the fiscal year in CA. If I remember correctly Ė thatís also about the time they send around the memo regarding the final day to intake any monies that will be able to apply to the closing fiscal year.

Or at least Ė hereís to hopingÖÖ"


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June 23, 2013, 11:17:32 PM
#101

The Bitcoin Foundation needs to move elsewhere.

☐ California
☑ Texas

New Hampshire, actually.


Anywhere outside the USA would probably be a good start.
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June 24, 2013, 12:03:15 AM
#102

I can't help thinking that we're seeing the early stages to the setup of what may go down as one of the most significant cases of Streisand effect ever, with global economic consequences.  If you guys thought the past 4 years were really interesting...

Bitcoin Fact: the price of bitcoin will not be greater than $18k for more than 10 consecutive days at any point in the next 2 years.
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June 24, 2013, 12:42:33 AM
#103

What the heck US govt wants, why they are doing so much fucking drama?

another seizure story, (might be related to this one)
http://letstalkbitcoin.com/post/53700133097/users-bitcoins-seized-by-dea
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June 24, 2013, 12:58:24 AM
#104

What does this mean? They want to make it so we can't transmit our coins? who do they think we are? Their nigger slaves?  Huh

You may be closer to the truth than you think you are. Monetary policy is modern day equivalent of whip.

Wake Up!



THIS!
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June 24, 2013, 01:05:14 AM
#105

No news is good news, but there's no such thing as bad publicity.
Everything is going according to plan.

Wit all my solidarities,
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June 24, 2013, 01:06:51 AM
#106

What the heck US govt wants, why they are doing so much fucking drama?

another seizure story, (might be related to this one)
http://letstalkbitcoin.com/post/53700133097/users-bitcoins-seized-by-dea

How is a seizure story related to a story about cease and desist?



I'm talking about US govt's action here ^ not the guy or his money seizure.
They are thinking bitcoin as some fucking fraud money system because peoples are using it for illegal purpose.
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June 24, 2013, 01:14:14 AM
#107

California bureaucrats are famous for their misunderstandings. Recordings for your entertainment  Grin

http://marcstevens.net/cos/cos20130221.html
http://marcstevens.net/cos/cos20110914.html
http://marcstevens.net/cos/cos20111201.html
http://marcstevens.net/cos/cos20070101.html
http://marcstevens.net/cos/cos20061116.html
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June 24, 2013, 01:33:44 AM
#108

What the heck US govt wants, why they are doing so much fucking drama?

another seizure story, (might be related to this one)
http://letstalkbitcoin.com/post/53700133097/users-bitcoins-seized-by-dea

How is a seizure story related to a story about cease and desist?



I'm talking about US govt's action here ^ not the guy or his money seizure.
They are thinking bitcoin as some fucking fraud money system because peoples are using it for illegal purpose.



Good thing they're going after Bitcoin. I know for a fact that USD never can be used for anything that is not legal. This is a feature of Fiat money that is undeniable. I think the state of Cali has a great case here. I know for a fact if you try to sell drugs and receive usd bills, then these bills vanish in your pocket - true fact. Cryptobills must be stopped, whatever the cost, and whatever the collateral damage!!!
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June 24, 2013, 01:39:02 AM
#109

Yup, in Fiat we TRUST, NOT!!

Earn Free BTC by using your browser check it  out
https://get.cryptobrowser.site/11117080
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June 24, 2013, 02:13:23 AM
#110

well they are doing pretty well against iran's currency

thats because america invaded iran, replaced its government and took over ownership of irans currency.

as i said before america does not control the euro, yen, pound. the only way it can do is by creating a war and taking control. to then make its demands on the population that use it.

now what country does bitcoin belong to that the US military need to bomb? - none
now what government does bitcoin belong to that the US military need to overtake? - none

let hyperthetically say the US government take over bitcoin foundation and ask gavin andressen to make a V9.1 of bitcoin QT which works in favour of the US government by moving 20% of all transactions to a government address.

we as the community simply go back to version 0.8.2 and allow them to play about on the fork V9 creates while we continue unhindered on the 0.8.2 fork

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June 24, 2013, 04:35:08 AM
#111

Watch this one closely, people. Unlike other recent FinCEN guidance and regulatory comments, and law enforcement actions, this action from California does not fit the facts nor existing US law.

This simply shows a misunderstanding of what bitcoin is.

tl;dr: California thinks Bitcoin Foundation "runs bitcoin."

Even more amusing are the ones that repeatedly come up from allegedly-well-informed fully-qualified commentators and pundits of the forms:

"Some evil geniuses believe the Bitcoin might X, Y and Z." (There can be only one! The Bitcoin!)

"Bitcoin verbed a noun." (as if Bitcoin is an entity capable of action)

"Bitcoin must obtain a license." (as if Bitcoin is an entity capable of possessing standing as party to a legal proceeding)

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June 24, 2013, 04:37:37 AM
#112

well they are doing pretty well against iran's currency

thats because america invaded iran, replaced its government and took over ownership of irans currency.

Quoted for 'franky1' stupidity.

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June 24, 2013, 04:40:31 AM
#113

Ask the parents of dead Iraqi children if they thought the war on terror fought in there country was legal and/or valid.

The FED and now California are declaring war.  Most other states will fall in line.

Individual prosecution is next.

Let's try to be mature adults and keep some perspective.

Recent FinCEN guidances, DHS/etc. seizures, IRS/GAO discussions have all been in line with existing US law.  See my State of the Coin 2011 presentation and earlier forum discussions.  It has always been known that US individuals and companies must... do the obvious and follow US law.  For US bitcoin exchanges, for example, that likely means federal + 48 state licensing.  Enforcement actions like Liberty Reserve or Mutum Sigilium seemed to be clearly outside existing, known regulations.  You gotta expect law enforcement to... enforce the laws.

This California letter is so zany because it does not fit existing law or facts In My Opinion As A Non-Lawyer.

Each regulatory action needs careful consideration within the context of its country.  "ZOMG GOVERNMENT DEAD IRAQI CHILDREN" is about as far from thoughtful consideration as one can get.

Bollocks, Jeff. Bollocks.

Like a great many statists, your words seem to indicate, once again, a conflation of what is legal with what is just, and I daresay a seeming lack of thoughtfulness toward justice concerns.

Let me Godwin it right down for you: The Nazi regime fully complied with all laws in the operation of its extermination camps.

"Law enforcement" can go eat flaming death, as far as I'm concerned.

FREE ROSS ULBRICHT, allegedly one of the Dread Pirates Roberts of the Silk Road
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June 24, 2013, 05:13:23 AM
#114

Mike,

Just two cents. If I remember it well you called for TBF to dissolve for plans to spend money on lobbyists and not on testing and development.

I partially agreed with you. I too think money you donated can be put to a better use than on lawyers.

It's kind of ironic that the people doing business as 'Californiaís Department of Financial Institutions'' may prove more successful in dissolving TBF than you Cheesy
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June 24, 2013, 05:43:41 AM
#115

Will the news of this cease and desist order have an impact on BTC price when EU/US wakes up?

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June 24, 2013, 05:48:06 AM
#116

Mike,

Just two cents. If I remember it well you called for TBF to dissolve for plans to spend money on lobbyists and not on testing and development.

I partially agreed with you. I too think money you donated can be put to a better use than on lawyers.

To be specific, my opposition is based on paying for lobbyists, not lawyers per se. There are plenty of instances around Bitcoin and its promotion and flourishing which, like it or not, require legal work.

Quote
It's kind of ironic that the people doing business as 'Californiaís Department of Financial Institutions'' may prove more successful in dissolving TBF than you Cheesy

I never thought it would be a solo effort Wink

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June 24, 2013, 05:53:42 AM
#117

when are they going to send in Arnold the Terminator to stop bitcoin?

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June 24, 2013, 06:11:46 AM
#118

Good. TBF isn't a money transmitter, but at least one of their members is (Charlie Shrem - bitinstant). I personally have no problem watching statists be the victims of statism.

If the board of TBF is sent to Guantanamo, it would be good for cryptocurrencies, but alas, its all just theater.


I'm grumpy!!
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June 24, 2013, 07:13:37 AM
#119

I for one, think this is a good development for bitcoin.

We all know that as bitcoin grows and gets bigger, more accepted and more widespread, that legal dramas are inevitable.

It had to start somewhere ... and this is the beginning of Govt's dipping their fingers in, trying to see what they can do about.

It's kind of explaratory right now ... let them explore.

As long as the Bitcoin Foundation do a good job, i don't see a problem.

And the more news for bitcoin, the better.

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June 24, 2013, 07:23:31 AM
#120

I never thought it would be a solo effort Wink

Good then Smiley

Let's hope (I still can't believe what I am writing) this statist action is carried out quickly and brings as a non-intended effect new quality for Bitcoin and Bitcoiners, and a better mechanism than TBF for funding Bitcoin testing and development (including Gavin's salary) is devised.
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June 24, 2013, 07:28:21 AM
#121

I thought that the entire purpose of TBF was to paint a big red target on themselves so they could divert the attention of gov towards them and away from more important things.  As someone else said above "everything is going acording to plan".

Bitcoin gets the free publicity, more people look into it, etc.

Great job BF.  Now if we just get a bunch more gov threats we could be in for a nice price bump.

Isn't this exactly the battle we all know is coming?  This is just the beginning.  Huge gov boondogles never go down with out a fight.  Never.

Our family was terrorized by Homeland Security.  Read all about it here:  http://www.jmwagner.com/ and http://www.burtw.com/  Any donations to help us recover from the $300,000 in legal fees and forced donations to the Federal Asset Forfeiture slush fund are greatly appreciated!
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June 24, 2013, 07:57:33 AM
Last edit: June 24, 2013, 08:10:30 AM by jubalix
#122

Quite Obviously Cali, executive is wrong

Goto court, defense,

[1] it's not recognized by any govt as FIAT,
[2] not issued by any recognised sovereign govt


eg, does giving monopoly money to each other constitute fiat?

What the gov' types fail to understand is that people are willing to work for something, BTC and value it independent of any central issuing authority.

Thus they face a paradoxical dilema, to recognize BTC would legitimize the people the holders of btc as quasi sovereign, and send the price to the "moon" to use troll box vernacular.

to not makes it very hard to make laws that capture it.

How do you write a law that says,

'you can not use Crypto's as money and we don't legally recognize Crypto's as money'

the logic of this is delicious. BTC/CC is really going obliterate much of illogicality in any law / gov system over time.


also does opencoin/XRP get any of these type of threats....I suspect not as it seems to be in the maw of the right money




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June 24, 2013, 10:08:33 AM
#123

the US government only has control over US dollars..
[snip]

Didn't you get the memo?  Federal Reserve is 100 years old now.  US gov orgs gave up control of the dollar long ago. 
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June 24, 2013, 10:15:31 AM
#124

This simply shows a misunderstanding of what bitcoin is.

tl;dr: California thinks Bitcoin Foundation "runs bitcoin."

This simply shows a misunderstanding of how power works.

tl;dr: Jeff fails to understand that "running bitcoin" is irrelevant to what's about to happen.

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June 24, 2013, 10:19:28 AM
#125

Feds may shutdown them. I see no impact on bitcoin network at all.

I see a positive impact as a result of noobs no longer thinking bitcoins are issued by THE bitcoin foundation.

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June 24, 2013, 10:24:43 AM
#126

I would suggest that whoever is actively involved in the Bitcoin Foundation move out of the US.

Nah, they'll just drone 'em.

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June 24, 2013, 10:32:49 AM
#127

Is Peter Vessenes still the head of TBF?

He's the Executive Director, Chairman of the Board, and Treasurer.

He's also about to be taking a shower while this large fellow with an attitude you couldn't knock down with a hammer keeps whispering in his ear: Oh nancy, Oh nancy.

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June 24, 2013, 10:43:47 AM
#128

The timing of Gavins sabbatical to Australia is priceless.
 

Safely away coding without distraction. The rest of the foundation can fight this next level of bureaucratical nonsense and free publicity.



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June 24, 2013, 11:09:00 AM
#129

 Grin

Bitcoin will show the world what hard money really is.
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June 24, 2013, 11:22:16 AM
#130

Let's hope (unmentionable horror occurs) and a better mechanism than TBF for funding Bitcoin testing and development (including Gavin's salary) is devised.

I am more and more persuaded in fact that Gavin is part of the problem, and that paying him doesn't help. Gavin's seat ought to be occupied by the Linus of Bitcoin... a Brash Dickhead For Life, if you will.

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June 24, 2013, 12:02:09 PM
#131

Is there anything we can do to help? For example, donate to hire law firms?

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June 24, 2013, 12:34:47 PM
#132

huh I just found out about this and I really don't think it matters much.  California is broke and is being made to do this nonsense or is looking for attention and handouts from the bankers IMO.
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June 24, 2013, 12:47:54 PM
#133

TBF was licking govt. asses for a long time (e.g.: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=192924.0)
Now the ass licked back. Shit happens.
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June 24, 2013, 12:55:46 PM
#134

TBF was licking govt. asses for a long time (e.g.: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=192924.0)
Now the ass licked back. Shit happens.

I doubt this had anything to do with it though, still the irony is striking.
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June 24, 2013, 12:59:46 PM
#135

I am more and more persuaded in fact that Gavin is part of the problem, and that paying him doesn't help. Gavin's seat ought to be occupied by the Linus of Bitcoin... a Brash Dickhead For Life, if you will.

Second this.

Can you imagine Gavin having the balls to say the sort of stuff Linus says* that needs to be said?  And no, burning a $1 bill doesn't count.

No, he's too busy working in secret, off the bitcoin-dev mailing list on some sideband "payment protocol" to bootstrap the de-anonymization of bitcoin via the X.509 SSL infrastructure.

That and plastering "bitcoin CORE CORE SUPER-CENTRAL INNER-CORE dev" on everything he touches.

I want Satoshi back.

(*) you know you can trust people who've made it through their 20's and still talk like this when it matters

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June 24, 2013, 01:01:39 PM
#136

Reading the letter, it seems they are in direct violation of CA Code 2030. Could you shed some light on this?

Very good question. Especially in relation to the word "advertise".

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June 24, 2013, 01:05:20 PM
#137

Now the ass licked back.

This mental image will haunt me almost as much as this one.

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June 24, 2013, 01:06:25 PM
#138

Is Peter Vessenes still the head of TBF?

He's the Executive Director, Chairman of the Board, and Treasurer.

Thanks, I never know how frequently these websites are updated. So, he's the one you want to google for info about what's happening.

He did announce that he will be stepping down but AFAIK he hasn't yet.

Still around.
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June 24, 2013, 01:19:51 PM
#139

Now the ass licked back.

This mental image will haunt me almost as much as this one.

But Bugs just wants... A friend.

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June 24, 2013, 01:46:26 PM
#140

No, he's too busy working in secret, off the bitcoin-dev mailing list on some sideband "payment protocol" to bootstrap the de-anonymization of bitcoin via the X.509 SSL infrastructure.

  • This is not secret.
  • It will not de-anonymize Bitcoin.
  • Can you provide a better way to protect against address replacement attacks?

I recognize there are critics that can be made. I, for one, never really liked the idea of a "Bitcoin Foundation". But what you just wrote is not pertinent.
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June 24, 2013, 02:20:41 PM
#141

A lot of you guys on here are pretty naive.

TBF isn't under any sort of attack - they ARE the establishment. This is all just theater to establish some "street cred" for them.

I'm grumpy!!
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June 24, 2013, 02:22:20 PM
#142


Personally, I would rather try to improve the situation than retreat from it.

Still around.
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June 24, 2013, 02:28:43 PM
#143

At this point in time, trying to improve the situation in USA and so many other places is much worse than doing nothing about it.

How so?

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June 24, 2013, 02:38:48 PM
#144

At this point in time, trying to improve the situation in USA and so many other places is much worse than doing nothing about it.

How so?

Rulers are counting with people taking action of some sort excluding just moving elsewhere. What happens if people move somewhere else or just
do nothing, literary, e.g. civil disobedience?

All you did was answer my question with a (rhetorical) question.

Still around.
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June 24, 2013, 02:41:41 PM
#145

Reading the letter, it seems they are in direct violation of CA Code 2030. Could you shed some light on this?

Very good question. Especially in relation to the word "advertise".

My thinking exactly. California is a bureaucratic nightmare but they usually have something they can sink their teeth into before they start sending action letters. I ran a business in California for 20 years. I've received my share of letters from the state and none of them were completely baseless accusations. They do their research first. Funny that he chose not to answer that question. A little close to home maybe?

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June 24, 2013, 02:47:15 PM
#146

What does this mean? They want to make it so we can't transmit our coins? who do they think we are? Their nigger slaves?  Huh

You may be closer to the truth than you think you are. Monetary policy is modern day equivalent of whip.

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June 24, 2013, 06:45:27 PM
#147

Reading the letter, it seems they are in direct violation of CA Code 2030. Could you shed some light on this?

Very good question. Especially in relation to the word "advertise".

My thinking exactly. California is a bureaucratic nightmare but they usually have something they can sink their teeth into before they start sending action letters. I ran a business in California for 20 years. I've received my share of letters from the state and none of them were completely baseless accusations. They do their research first. Funny that he chose not to answer that question. A little close to home maybe?

My guess is that he is just busy.
Anyways that Code 2030 is quite worrying. Generally speaking, I fear anything that forbids advertising something, since it can usually be twisted to condemn a broad range of behaviours and limit free speech.

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June 24, 2013, 07:31:19 PM
Last edit: June 24, 2013, 08:00:09 PM by Rassah
#148

IANAL, but...


I think it would be amusing if the Bitcoin Foundation sent back a reply, stating simply

Done!

and just continued to do what it's doing. If that's the end of this amusement, some California bureaucrat will smile smugly, feeling a job has been well done. If we are lucky enough for this amusement to continue, then they will (I hope I hope I hope) keep sending more C&D letters, to which TBF can just keep replying, "Done!" until those bureaucrats actually spend some time to try to prove that TBF is actually doing any money transmitting. And fail.

Downside, though, is that they would be too embarrassed about wasting a few hundred thousand tax payer dollars, and will probably try to pin some BS on TBF, just so none of them get in trouble for wasting everyone's time.
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June 24, 2013, 07:41:47 PM
#149

It just amazes me how many stupid letters from states every year I have to answer (and some have to fight) just to run a business in the US.   Last year, we spent 80k on legal fees answering stupid inquiries that then send "judgement" letters for taxes owed to you.   Most guilty states:  California, Washington, New Jersey, New York and surprisingly, Texas.

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June 24, 2013, 07:47:12 PM
#150

IANAL, but...


I think it would be amusing if the Bitcoin Foundation sent back a reply, stating simply

Done!

and just continued to do what it's doing. If that's the end of this amusement, some California bureaucrat will smile smugly, feeling that mission has been accomplished. If we are lucky enough for this amusement to continue, then they will (I hope I hope I hope) keep sending more C&D letters, to which TBF can just keep replying, "Done!" until those bureaucrats actually spend some time to try to prove that TBF is actually doing any money transmitting. And fail.

Downside, though, is that they would be too embarrassed about wasting a few hundred thousand tax payer dollars, and will probably try to pin some BS on TBF, just so none of them get in trouble for wasting everyone's time.

That would be funny until you find out the burden of proof is on you and not them and your facing a nice big fat fine. I guess that's ok though because the community would be paying the fine from member donations.

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June 24, 2013, 07:52:30 PM
#151

IANAL, but...


I think it would be amusing if the Bitcoin Foundation sent back a reply, stating simply

Done!

and just continued to do what it's doing. If that's the end of this amusement, some California bureaucrat will smile smugly, feeling that mission has been accomplished. If we are lucky enough for this amusement to continue, then they will (I hope I hope I hope) keep sending more C&D letters, to which TBF can just keep replying, "Done!" until those bureaucrats actually spend some time to try to prove that TBF is actually doing any money transmitting. And fail.

Downside, though, is that they would be too embarrassed about wasting a few hundred thousand tax payer dollars, and will probably try to pin some BS on TBF, just so none of them get in trouble for wasting everyone's time.

That would be funny until you find out the burden of proof is on you and not them and your facing a nice big fat fine. I guess that's ok though because the community would be paying the fine from member donations.


Exactly, people do not seem to realize it costs governments nothing to sue you.   It actually helps them justify their jobs as being "so busy" and just costs YOU money to defend.

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June 24, 2013, 07:55:31 PM
#152

IANAL, but...


I think it would be amusing if the Bitcoin Foundation sent back a reply, stating simply

Done!

and just continued to do what it's doing. If that's the end of this amusement, some California bureaucrat will smile smugly, feeling that mission has been accomplished. If we are lucky enough for this amusement to continue, then they will (I hope I hope I hope) keep sending more C&D letters, to which TBF can just keep replying, "Done!" until those bureaucrats actually spend some time to try to prove that TBF is actually doing any money transmitting. And fail.

Downside, though, is that they would be too embarrassed about wasting a few hundred thousand tax payer dollars, and will probably try to pin some BS on TBF, just so none of them get in trouble for wasting everyone's time.

That would be funny until you find out the burden of proof is on you and not them and your facing a nice big fat fine. I guess that's ok though because the community would be paying the fine from member donations.


Exactly, people do not seem to realize it costs governments nothing to sue you.   It actually helps them justify their jobs as being "so busy" and just costs YOU money to defend.

Most people that have dealt with the government do understand that, it's Rassah that seems to not understand. lol

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June 24, 2013, 08:03:29 PM
#153

IANAL, but...


I think it would be amusing if the Bitcoin Foundation sent back a reply, stating simply

Done!

and just continued to do what it's doing. If that's the end of this amusement, some California bureaucrat will smile smugly, feeling that mission has been accomplished. If we are lucky enough for this amusement to continue, then they will (I hope I hope I hope) keep sending more C&D letters, to which TBF can just keep replying, "Done!" until those bureaucrats actually spend some time to try to prove that TBF is actually doing any money transmitting. And fail.

Downside, though, is that they would be too embarrassed about wasting a few hundred thousand tax payer dollars, and will probably try to pin some BS on TBF, just so none of them get in trouble for wasting everyone's time.

That would be funny until you find out the burden of proof is on you and not them and your facing a nice big fat fine. I guess that's ok though because the community would be paying the fine from member donations.


But if you are not actually doing the thing they are accusing you of doing, and you tell them that you have stopped doing it, you aren't lying, right? It wouldn't be saying, "I am not doing this, please prove that I am," it's simply "I stopped doing it."
I guess they can still fine you, claiming that you are still doing the thing you've never done in the first place Sad
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June 24, 2013, 08:09:10 PM
#154

Have any Cali businesses received this letter? It is thought to have been sent as part of a flotilla of letters, but I have found no others. If it is just the foundation that received this, that is a little weird and provocative.

Here is the letter:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/149335233/CA-State-Cease-and-Desist-May-30


P.S. For those who think we should just disengage from the regulatory process, this is what you can expect more of. Laws written by people who know nothing about bitcoin for people like you who use bitcoin. You can whine about this all you want at the forums, but if instead you wrote your political representatives, you might actually make a difference.  

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June 24, 2013, 08:09:48 PM
#155

IANAL, but...


I think it would be amusing if the Bitcoin Foundation sent back a reply, stating simply

Done!

and just continued to do what it's doing. If that's the end of this amusement, some California bureaucrat will smile smugly, feeling that mission has been accomplished. If we are lucky enough for this amusement to continue, then they will (I hope I hope I hope) keep sending more C&D letters, to which TBF can just keep replying, "Done!" until those bureaucrats actually spend some time to try to prove that TBF is actually doing any money transmitting. And fail.

Downside, though, is that they would be too embarrassed about wasting a few hundred thousand tax payer dollars, and will probably try to pin some BS on TBF, just so none of them get in trouble for wasting everyone's time.


That would be funny until you find out the burden of proof is on you and not them and your facing a nice big fat fine. I guess that's ok though because the community would be paying the fine from member donations.


But if you are not actually doing the thing they are accusing you of doing, and you tell them that you have stopped doing it, you aren't lying, right? It wouldn't be saying, "I am not doing this, please prove that I am," it's simply "I stopped doing it."
I guess they can still fine you, claiming that you are still doing the thing you've never done in the first place Sad

If you're audited by the IRS, and I hope you never are, the way to solve it is to lawyer up, get your paperwork gathered and go in shooting. That will lessen your costs. Doing nothing but saying, "yep' I did everything right" on a response letter without providing proof is the way to get a full judgement against you for unpaid taxes and possibly jail time. Not a good plan.

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June 24, 2013, 08:16:10 PM
#156

If you're audited by the IRS, and I hope you never are, the way to solve it is to lawyer up, get your paperwork gathered and go in shooting. That will lessen your costs. Doing nothing but saying, "yep' I did everything right" on a response letter without providing proof is the way to get a full judgement against you for unpaid taxes and possibly jail time. Not a good plan.

I'm sure that applies to taxes, as a he-said-she-said kinda dispute about revenues that needs to be resolved, but this seems pretty cut and dry. They said Bitcoin Foundation does the functions of a money transmitter. Bitcoin Foundation does no such thing. Not even close. There isn't even anything for TBF to show to prove that they are not. Unless these bureaucrats come up with something like "Bitcoin Foundation is hiding the evidence that they are transmitting money!" there is quite literally nothing for TBF to show or prove...
right?
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June 24, 2013, 08:24:03 PM
#157

Hey Rassah, I agree that the foundation seems an unlikely target for this action. Perhaps this is a "shot across the bow" of some sorts? 

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June 24, 2013, 08:28:24 PM
#158

If you're audited by the IRS, and I hope you never are, the way to solve it is to lawyer up, get your paperwork gathered and go in shooting. That will lessen your costs. Doing nothing but saying, "yep' I did everything right" on a response letter without providing proof is the way to get a full judgement against you for unpaid taxes and possibly jail time. Not a good plan.

I'm sure that applies to taxes, as a he-said-she-said kinda dispute about revenues that needs to be resolved, but this seems pretty cut and dry. They said Bitcoin Foundation does the functions of a money transmitter. Bitcoin Foundation does no such thing. Not even close. There isn't even anything for TBF to show to prove that they are not. Unless these bureaucrats come up with something like "Bitcoin Foundation is hiding the evidence that they are transmitting money!" there is quite literally nothing for TBF to show or prove...
right?

Really? Does TBF pay the lead developers salary? Does the lead developer work on a software system that can transfer funds for cash out at an exchange? Did TBF spend any funds advertising the recent California conference? Does the state of California consider that to be enough for violation of the law? I don't know enough of the inside story to answer all these questions but if you do please enlighten us.  

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June 24, 2013, 08:29:18 PM
#159

Is the foundation going to make any announcement about this matter to its members?

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June 24, 2013, 08:32:11 PM
#160

Is the foundation going to make any announcement about this matter to its members?
It's all over the news already so it hardly needs announcing, it probably needs an official response not an announcement, and I would assume the response would be after first taking legal advice.

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June 24, 2013, 08:53:45 PM
#161

Is the foundation going to make any announcement about this matter to its members?
It's all over the news already so it hardly needs announcing, it probably needs an official response not an announcement, and I would assume the response would be after first taking legal advice.

It was discussed on the BF forum.

Still around.
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June 24, 2013, 09:16:10 PM
#162

Really? Does TBF pay the lead developers salary?

Yes

Quote from: QuestionAuthority
Does the lead developer work on a software system that can transfer funds for cash out at an exchange?

No. Just software that can store and transfer bitcoins. Exchanges work on the software that transfers between cash and bitcoins. This would be like telling World of Warcraft to get a MTB license because people on eBay trade their currency for cash.

Quote from: QuestionAuthority
Did TBF spend any funds advertising the recent California conference?

Yes

Quote from: QuestionAuthority
Does the state of California consider that to be enough for violation of the law?

I really don't know. I would think that if my organization was being sponsored by Bank of America, and I pointed that fact out at one of my conferences, thus giving them advertising in exchange, that I would not have to register as a bank?

Quote from: QuestionAuthority
I don't know enough of the inside story to answer all these questions but if you do please enlighten us.  

I wish I could. Logically, none of this makes any sense. But then again not only I Am Not A Lawyer, but I Am Not A Crazy Person either. And I am starting to suspect these people might be.
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June 24, 2013, 09:23:23 PM
#163

I wish I could. Logically, none of this makes any sense. But then again not only I Am Not A Lawyer, but I Am Not A Crazy Person either. And I am starting to suspect these people might be.

Maybe they are just desperate. Consider this equation. The state government in California is all but bankrupt. They have a sales tax for revenue. They read news stories about people "living a week on Bitcoin" and the meme that "Bitcoin allows people to avoid taxes". The recent conference means that Bitcoin is growing.

So for desperate people 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 666

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June 24, 2013, 09:31:30 PM
#164

Really? Does TBF pay the lead developers salary?

Yes

Quote from: QuestionAuthority
Does the lead developer work on a software system that can transfer funds for cash out at an exchange?

No. Just software that can store and transfer bitcoins. Exchanges work on the software that transfers between cash and bitcoins. This would be like telling World of Warcraft to get a MTB license because people on eBay trade their currency for cash.

Quote from: QuestionAuthority
Did TBF spend any funds advertising the recent California conference?

Yes

Quote from: QuestionAuthority
Does the state of California consider that to be enough for violation of the law?

I really don't know. I wouldn't think that if my organization was being sponsored by Bank of America, and I pointed that fact out at one of my conferences, thus giving them advertising in exchange, that I would have to register as a bank.

Quote from: QuestionAuthority
I don't know enough of the inside story to answer all these questions but if you do please enlighten us.  

I wish I could. Logically, none of this makes any sense. But then again not only I Am Not A Lawyer, but I Am Not A Crazy Person either. And I am starting to suspect these people might be.

I happen to think that California will see all the advertising and the connection with software development as enablement and accessory to a violation but your right most government actions seem nuts so it's hard to guess. Your BofA argument would work if it weren't for CA Code 2030. Selective enforcement is the problem with all laws. If they like you they don't enforce. If they don't they slam the hammer.

I never joined because I don't run a Bitcoin business and that's what I see TBF mostly supporting. I'm not against them but I see limited usefulness for individuals. You're a TBF member, what was said on the TBF forum? Is it just useless chatter like this thread or was there some hopeful news?

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June 24, 2013, 09:49:21 PM
#165

Well I guess this issue goes a little deeper then I originally thought I have to admit.  I heard through the grapevine that Californians would be fined for using bitcoins which is sickening!  I have to look into this more just saying if that is true that is crazy and sad.
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June 24, 2013, 09:56:19 PM
#166

Well I guess this issue goes a little deeper then I originally thought I have to admit.  I heard through the grapevine that Californians would be fined for using bitcoins which is sickening!  I have to look into this more just saying if that is true that is crazy and sad.


Source?

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June 24, 2013, 09:57:52 PM
#167

But if you are not actually doing the thing they are accusing you of doing, and you tell them that you have stopped doing it, you aren't lying, right? It wouldn't be saying, "I am not doing this, please prove that I am," it's simply "I stopped doing it."
I guess they can still fine you, claiming that you are still doing the thing you've never done in the first place Sad

No, formally saying you have stopped doing something has an implied admission that you have been doing it.

What seems expedient now could actually be very problematic later, since with bitcoin it is extremely difficult if not impossible to prove you didn't do something.  To attempt that, you would have to fully document all bitcoin transactions/services/businesses you were ever involved in, yet you could still be accused of not revealing all of your wallets.

(The reverse is of course not true: coin users can easily prove they did do something, should they choose to.)
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June 24, 2013, 10:02:45 PM
#168

Interesting question would be:

Was it a misunderstanding on purpose? (of how bitcoin works)

If not, then everything is ok. Misunderstanding will be clearified and BF continues as normal.
If yes, then BF is screwed. They were just looking for a reason to shut this thing down.
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June 24, 2013, 10:40:10 PM
#169

You're a TBF member, what was said on the TBF forum? Is it just useless chatter like this thread or was there some hopeful news?

I know this wasn't directed at me but I am a member so I thought I'd answer.

Patrick did inform us that the letter was dated May 30th but was only received last week. He also stated that Jon wrote his piece before he could draft an announcement so he just linked to it on the BF forum.

Other than that, the discussion on that forum is basically this thread condensed into one page.

Still around.
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June 24, 2013, 11:22:03 PM
#170

You're a TBF member, what was said on the TBF forum? Is it just useless chatter like this thread or was there some hopeful news?

I know this wasn't directed at me but I am a member so I thought I'd answer.

Patrick did inform us that the letter was dated May 30th but was only received last week. He also stated that Jon wrote his piece before he could draft an announcement so he just linked to it on the BF forum.

Other than that, the discussion on that forum is basically this thread condensed into one page.

Thanks edd.

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June 25, 2013, 01:04:41 AM
#171

The bit I don't understand about "money transmission without a license" is are they talking about the transferring of BTC between one place or another, or are they taking about BF accepting USD converting it to BTC sending the BTC somewhere then the destination converts it back to USD?

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June 25, 2013, 01:06:19 AM
#172


 Grin Grin Grin
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June 25, 2013, 01:13:08 AM
#173


That was f'in hilarious! Thanks  Grin
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June 25, 2013, 01:24:26 AM
#174


Always with those damned carrots!

Someone needs to send a cease and desist order to california ... cease being complete idiots and desist from rampant totalitarianism.

I guess Vessenes gets his wish for endless stream of lawyers on the BF payroll now ... glad I sent my btc donation directly to Gavin because all i can see is all those BF donations ending up in slick lawyer's pockets before the whole sham is folded up and no one is any the wiser about what the fuck just happened and where the btc went ... kind of like pirate@havard-law for the good folks.

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June 25, 2013, 01:26:20 AM
#175

"I still will go broke paying all those legal fees"

carrots - rolf

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June 25, 2013, 02:29:21 AM
#176

Maybe they think the Bitcoin Foundation was involved in "money transmission" because of the working Bitcoin ATM at the conference Huh

Heh, very well could be.  That event was in San Jose, CA.   The facilities were rented by Bitcoin Foundation.   This activity occurred in plain view (and probably was even promoted by Bitcoin Foundation, as-in  ... need bitcoins, go visit the Bitcoin ATM).

I could see the State using that incident as the justification for an opportunity to send a Cease and Desist.
 

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June 25, 2013, 05:31:40 AM
#177

Haha, that was funny =)

However BF is useless vip club imho. Feds may shutdown them. I see no impact on bitcoin network at all.
They do pay the Bitcoin lead developer's salary.
Then may be it is a stupid game with a clever calculation behind.
Pressure on BF -> BF is cooperating with regulators -> developers are cooperating with regulators -> small changes in the client to better track transactions -> changes in the protocol to roll back unwanted transactions

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June 25, 2013, 05:44:55 AM
#178

Who next then, github?

Yes! And Linux Foundation too. And then only windows with escrowed backdoor keys is legal to install on any computing device and everyone moving out to darknets.

U no move to darknet... sending encrypted information without prior key-sharing with authorities is punished with jail-time.

I think it's time to found the "church of random", where our religious practive involves random automated prayer. We'll install random prayer nodes sending random prayers to random other believers prayer nodes in order to worship the gods of random.

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June 25, 2013, 09:00:05 AM
#179

Haha, that was funny =)

However BF is useless vip club imho. Feds may shutdown them. I see no impact on bitcoin network at all.
They do pay the Bitcoin lead developer's salary.
Then may be it is a stupid game with a clever calculation behind.
Pressure on BF -> BF is cooperating with regulators -> developers are cooperating with regulators -> small changes in the client to better track transactions -> changes in the protocol to roll back unwanted transactions

-> hard fork (and everyone can stick with the best version of Bitcoin)

Then they allow taxes to be paid using their-fork-coins. Sheeps go buy those (whoa! government endorsed bitcoin!!) and their fork explodes in value, then we are left as the weird minority holding useless coins.
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June 25, 2013, 09:02:39 AM
#180

but how to block bitcoins transmission in CA ? technically impossible since BTC is decentralized ...

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June 25, 2013, 11:48:26 AM
#181

Well if nothing else a crystal clear big red flag has been put up ...

!! DO NOT DO BITCOIN BUSINESS IN CALIFORNIA!!

... sucks to be a silicon valley money geek and get neutered by east coast bankster-lawyers every which way   Grin

And to all those idiot Californians clamouring for more regulation .... get lubed up, grabbing your ankles is not going to be enough it seems.

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June 25, 2013, 12:58:11 PM
#182

I am more and more persuaded in fact that Gavin is part of the problem, and that paying him doesn't help. Gavin's seat ought to be occupied by the Linus of Bitcoin... a Brash Dickhead For Life, if you will.

Second this.

Can you imagine Gavin having the balls to say the sort of stuff Linus says* that needs to be said?  And no, burning a $1 bill doesn't count.

No, he's too busy working in secret, off the bitcoin-dev mailing list on some sideband "payment protocol" to bootstrap the de-anonymization of bitcoin via the X.509 SSL infrastructure.

That and plastering "bitcoin CORE CORE SUPER-CENTRAL INNER-CORE dev" on everything he touches.

I want Satoshi back.

(*) you know you can trust people who've made it through their 20's and still talk like this when it matters

I don't know. I'm new here and all, but this almost sounds like scapegoating to me.

Bitcoin Foundation has a legal group, no? What do they make of this letter?

I for one will be writing letters to my elected representatives explaining why bitcoin is important to me as a Californian.

QuarkCoin - what I believe bitcoin was intended to be. On reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/QuarkCoin/
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June 25, 2013, 01:43:20 PM
#183

I for one will be writing letters to my elected representatives explaining why bitcoin is important to me as a Californian.

Begging for your freedom is a waste of time in America. They don't give a shit about you or why you think bitcoin is important. Wake up! You're a slave and don't even know it.

I'm grumpy!!
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June 25, 2013, 02:07:14 PM
#184

I for one will be writing letters to my elected representatives explaining why bitcoin is important to me as a Californian.

Begging for your freedom is a waste of time in America. They don't give a shit about you or why you think bitcoin is important. Wake up! You're a slave and don't even know it.

I guess he picked his nick "AliceinWonderland" for a reason

Cheesy

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June 25, 2013, 02:44:43 PM
#185

Pressure on BF -> BF is cooperating with regulators -> developers are cooperating with regulators -> small changes in the client to better track transactions -> changes in the protocol to roll back unwanted transactions

This conspiracy theory is ignorant of (a) how open source works and (b) how the dev team works.


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June 25, 2013, 02:53:44 PM
#186


LOL'd so hard

And even funnier is the comment from this guy:

"Ronald Wiplinger
welcher idiot hat das in den untertitlen uebersetzt? which idiot translated the text into the sub titles?"

I can only imagine him thinking WTF is going on LOLZ

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June 25, 2013, 02:58:02 PM
#187

I for one will be writing letters to my elected representatives explaining why bitcoin is important to me as a Californian.

Begging for your freedom is a waste of time in America. They don't give a shit about you or why you think bitcoin is important. Wake up! You're a slave and don't even know it.

Letters are more important than people realize.

First of all, it is not uncommon for an aide to a politician to have very little knowledge on a subject. When they read the letters, it can inspire them. It doesn't always, but it can. These interns are often still at the psychological stage where they believe they are there for the good of the people and they can have an influence on the politician.

Secondly, it is not uncommon for politicians to count letters received to see which issues are important to the people.

QuarkCoin - what I believe bitcoin was intended to be. On reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/QuarkCoin/
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June 25, 2013, 03:03:53 PM
#188

-> hard fork (and everyone can stick with the best version of Bitcoin)

Then they allow taxes to be paid using their-fork-coins. Sheeps go buy those (whoa! government endorsed bitcoin!!) and their fork explodes in value, then we are left as the weird minority holding useless coins.

Depends on if miners can be convinced to stick with the GovCoin fork, instead of switching to the hard fork. If they don't switch to the GovCoin fork (and miners are global, so what do they care about mining some country's coins?), then either no one will mine this GovCoin's blockchain, or so few will mine it that it will be 51% attacked by rogue miners into oblivion.
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June 25, 2013, 03:42:09 PM
#189

If you're audited by the IRS, and I hope you never are, the way to solve it is to lawyer up, get your paperwork gathered and go in shooting. That will lessen your costs. Doing nothing but saying, "yep' I did everything right" on a response letter without providing proof is the way to get a full judgement against you for unpaid taxes and possibly jail time. Not a good plan.
I'm sure that applies to taxes, as a he-said-she-said kinda dispute about revenues that needs to be resolved, but this seems pretty cut and dry. They said Bitcoin Foundation does the functions of a money transmitter. Bitcoin Foundation does no such thing. Not even close. There isn't even anything for TBF to show to prove that they are not. Unless these bureaucrats come up with something like "Bitcoin Foundation is hiding the evidence that they are transmitting money!" there is quite literally nothing for TBF to show or prove...
right?
You do not seem to understand that costs of "defending" your innocent ass.   States and the federal government have NO lawyer bills to pay and they just keep filing and you HAVE to keep defending or they get a judgment against you.    More americans need to be sued by their government for some BS and hear a lawyer that you have just dumped $450 per hour on for the last year tell you "it is cheaper if you just pay what they are now asking than my fees to defend".


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June 25, 2013, 04:21:15 PM
#190

I for one will be writing letters to my elected representatives explaining why bitcoin is important to me as a Californian.

Begging for your freedom is a waste of time in America. They don't give a shit about you or why you think bitcoin is important. Wake up! You're a slave and don't even know it.



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June 25, 2013, 04:48:51 PM
#191

Top 9 reasons why California sucks: http://www.newsrealblog.com/2011/02/14/top-9-reasons-california-sucks/

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June 25, 2013, 04:55:31 PM
#192

^^ Fucking Tea Party dumbasses. You also think Ayn Rand is a philosopher? LOL.

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June 25, 2013, 05:19:01 PM
#193


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June 25, 2013, 05:23:18 PM
#194


If you want to know what their endgame for Bitcoin is, look at the history of the Liberty Dollar:

Quote

DO NOT compare bitcoin with liberty dollar.
the issue with liberty dollar was the fact that the metal coins were made to replicate a actual FIAT dollar coin. which comes under counterfeiting laws.

bitcoin is not a counterfeit of FIAT. its a totally unrelated and new currency. (well the thailand authorities could take BTC symbol a bit personal. but its still not as bad as the liberty dollar)

 I have been following NORFED/Liberty Dollar since around 2006, and Liberty Dollars actually lead me to Bitcoin strangely enough. The entire reason NORFED was created was that it serves as a protest and alternative to the federal reserve. Why would a group protesting the federal reserve make currency intended to be copies of federal reserve notes? They wouldn't, and didn't. If you bother to look at the rounds Liberty Dollar issued, you would NEVER confuse them for federal reserve notes or coinage issued by the treasury. They operated in PUBLIC since 1998. Prosecutors hadn't noticed this until just recently? Does the treasury stamp coins with a website? Do they even make coinage that size? There are a lot of requirements of similitude in order for counterfeiting to be considered.  Liberty Dollar did not meet these requirements. They were railroaded.

This is a PERFECT example of how the "rule of law" only works for the status quo and the powers that be. Anyone who tries to change the system within the system better watch out, because they already slipped a noose around your neck, they are just waiting until they find undesirable but legal activity to pull the trap door out from under you and declare you a "criminal". We are all subject to this.
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June 25, 2013, 06:52:06 PM
#195

I for one will be writing letters to my elected representatives explaining why bitcoin is important to me as a Californian.

Begging for your freedom is a waste of time in America. They don't give a shit about you or why you think bitcoin is important. Wake up! You're a slave and don't even know it.

Letters are more important than people realize.

First of all, it is not uncommon for an aide to a politician to have very little knowledge on a subject. When they read the letters, it can inspire them. It doesn't always, but it can. These interns are often still at the psychological stage where they believe they are there for the good of the people and they can have an influence on the politician.

Secondly, it is not uncommon for politicians to count letters received to see which issues are important to the people.

You're naive. Tell you what - do what I did 10 years ago and start getting involved. Go and make your calls, knock on doors, get people to sign petitions, register people to vote, support candidates, yada yada yada...

You need to get jaded in that shit first before you can understand that the America you were taught in school is essentially a pile of bullshit. You have no rights and no parasite in government is going to help you.

I'm grumpy!!
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June 25, 2013, 06:58:38 PM
#196


If you want to know what their endgame for Bitcoin is, look at the history of the Liberty Dollar:

Quote

DO NOT compare bitcoin with liberty dollar.
the issue with liberty dollar was the fact that the metal coins were made to replicate a actual FIAT dollar coin. which comes under counterfeiting laws.

bitcoin is not a counterfeit of FIAT. its a totally unrelated and new currency. (well the thailand authorities could take BTC symbol a bit personal. but its still not as bad as the liberty dollar)

 I have been following NORFED/Liberty Dollar since around 2006, and Liberty Dollars actually lead me to Bitcoin strangely enough. The entire reason NORFED was created was that it serves as a protest and alternative to the federal reserve. Why would a group protesting the federal reserve make currency intended to be copies of federal reserve notes? They wouldn't, and didn't. If you bother to look at the rounds Liberty Dollar issued, you would NEVER confuse them for federal reserve notes or coinage issued by the treasury. They operated in PUBLIC since 1998. Prosecutors hadn't noticed this until just recently? Does the treasury stamp coins with a website? Do they even make coinage that size? There are a lot of requirements of similitude in order for counterfeiting to be considered.  Liberty Dollar did not meet these requirements. They were railroaded.

This is a PERFECT example of how the "rule of law" only works for the status quo and the powers that be. Anyone who tries to change the system within the system better watch out, because they already slipped a noose around your neck, they are just waiting until they find undesirable but legal activity to pull the trap door out from under you and declare you a "criminal". We are all subject to this.

As a former Liberty Dollar RCO, I can tell you that TECSHARE is 100% correct. Not only did Bernard and LD not violate any similitude laws, counterfeiting requires the INTENT to defraud the public. Bernard had hired a very well known attorney to make sure he WASN'T violating any similitude laws. So how can anyone say he intended to violate a law when he paid someone a ton of money to make sure he wasn't??

It took a completely bullshit stacked jury to twist around that simple logic. It remains as a great proof that there is absolutely NO justice whatsoever in federal courtrooms.

I'm grumpy!!
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June 25, 2013, 08:34:03 PM
#197

I'm real curious as to the logic of how a "Liberty Dollar" is legally different from a "Linden Dollar", a Hong Kong Dollar, a Canadian Dollar, or an Australian Dollar.
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June 25, 2013, 08:51:36 PM
#198

I'm real curious as to the logic of how a "Liberty Dollar" is legally different from a "Linden Dollar", a Hong Kong Dollar, a Canadian Dollar, or an Australian Dollar.

liberty dollar was a physical coin that was put into circulation as a counterfeit of a US dollar coin. it held the $ symbol etc which is trade marks of government.

linden dollars are ingame credits

hong kong dollar canadian dollar australian dollar are bank notes or coins of the country mentioned in the names. the design of the coins/bank notes are tailored to that country to make it obvious to which country they are owned by. which helps to show which country they are legal tender of. EG you cant pay a court fine in US with hong kong dollars as the hong kong dollars are legal tender of hong kong , not the US.. and vice versa

if owned by a government copying or selling a replica without authorisation is called counterfeiting and illegal. (EG liberty dollar replicating US Dollar)

if only the liberty dollar used an L symbol instead of $, then it would have been more regarded as monopoly money or fresh new currency as oppose to a US dollar coin

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June 25, 2013, 08:59:02 PM
#199

Quote
Whats the big effing deal? The notice says "MAY be involved..." Bitcoin foundation is clearly not a money transmitter. The notice requests a response, which I am sure the Bitcoin foundation will no doubt easily provide. Case closed. Nothing to see here.

What if a small business without access to counsel receives such a notice? This is government bullying and is a big deal.

I feel like the BTC Foundation could easily defend this in court without a trial lawyer...
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June 25, 2013, 09:09:41 PM
#200

Quote
Whats the big effing deal? The notice says "MAY be involved..." Bitcoin foundation is clearly not a money transmitter. The notice requests a response, which I am sure the Bitcoin foundation will no doubt easily provide. Case closed. Nothing to see here.

What if a small business without access to counsel receives such a notice? This is government bullying and is a big deal.

I feel like the BTC Foundation could easily defend this in court without a trial lawyer...

The man who defends himself in court has a fool for a lawyer.

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June 25, 2013, 09:22:38 PM
#201


liberty dollar was a physical coin that was put into circulation as a counterfeit of a US dollar coin. it held the $ symbol etc which is trade marks of government.


Wrong. The $ sign is not a trademark of government..LMAO.....take a few moments to think about that before you make yourself sound galactically stupid again.

I'm grumpy!!
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June 25, 2013, 09:38:36 PM
#202


liberty dollar was a physical coin that was put into circulation as a counterfeit of a US dollar coin. it held the $ symbol etc which is trade marks of government.


Wrong. The $ sign is not a trademark of government..LMAO.....take a few moments to think about that before you make yourself sound galactically stupid again.

That is correct franky1 often gets the details incorrect.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rounds/rounds34.1.html (copy of jury form lists many of the details of the case).

The coins however did use the words "USA", "In God we Trust", have US state names, and symbology commonly associated with US coins.  Statements of the company about launching all 50 coins to coincide with date of US mint launching US state coins was introduced as evidence.  As was documentation that the organization encouraged passing the coins as US coinage (not overtly lying but allowing the counterparty to make a mistake that the coins were US legal tender), encouraged participating merchants to give unsuspecting customers Liberty Coins as change without informing them it wasn't legal tender (i.e. customer buys $60 worth of goods, pays with $100 FRN and gets back Liberty Reserve coins for some or all of change.  Most people would assume that if they paid in legal tender, the change back was legal tender).




Then you have aspects like the $10 Silver coin having about $6 worth of Silver at the time of minting.  Everyone at every level got very large cuts of the profits.  Ultimately it was unsuspecting consumers who got $6 in Silver instead of $10 in FRN.


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June 25, 2013, 10:05:21 PM
Last edit: June 25, 2013, 10:17:38 PM by BurtW
#203

As a former Liberty Dollar RCO, I can tell you that TECSHARE is 100% correct. Not only did Bernard and LD not violate any similitude laws, counterfeiting requires the INTENT to defraud the public. Bernard had hired a very well known attorney to make sure he WASN'T violating any similitude laws. So how can anyone say he intended to violate a law when he paid someone a ton of money to make sure he wasn't??

It took a completely bullshit stacked jury to twist around that simple logic. It remains as a great proof that there is absolutely NO justice whatsoever in federal courtrooms.

cryptoanarchist:  How do you resolve what you said in this quote with the pictures in the previous post?

Are you saying the pictures are fake?  From those pictures and D&T's post it is OBVIOUS that there was an intent to defraud.

If you bother to look at the rounds Liberty Dollar issued, you would NEVER confuse them for federal reserve notes or coinage issued by the treasury.

TECSHARE:  how can you say that with a straight face?  I just looked at the rounds and they look a lot like US money to me.


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June 25, 2013, 10:37:18 PM
#204

liberty dollar was a physical coin that was put into circulation as a counterfeit of a US dollar coin.

It's ok to be ignorant but it's not ok to lie.

If you're ignorant, educate yourself. If you're lying, stop it.
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June 25, 2013, 10:53:11 PM
#205

The coins however did use the words "USA", "In God we Trust", have US state names,

D&T, I'm surprised. You're usually more on top of it than this.

It says, "Trust in God" and there's no country name. libertydollar.org is prominent on the coin. Only a fool would be taken in by this coin.



And you'd have to totally out to lunch to ever think that Ron Paul would be put on a US coin:


Quote
Ultimately it was unsuspecting consumers who got $6 in Silver instead of $10 in FRN.

No one using this coin was an unsuspecting consumer. Wink
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June 26, 2013, 12:58:20 AM
#206

As a former Liberty Dollar RCO, I can tell you that TECSHARE is 100% correct. Not only did Bernard and LD not violate any similitude laws, counterfeiting requires the INTENT to defraud the public. Bernard had hired a very well known attorney to make sure he WASN'T violating any similitude laws. So how can anyone say he intended to violate a law when he paid someone a ton of money to make sure he wasn't??

It took a completely bullshit stacked jury to twist around that simple logic. It remains as a great proof that there is absolutely NO justice whatsoever in federal courtrooms.

cryptoanarchist:  How do you resolve what you said in this quote with the pictures in the previous post?

Are you saying the pictures are fake?  From those pictures and D&T's post it is OBVIOUS that there was an intent to defraud.


Obvious? That is clearly just your opinion, because its not obvious to me. I don't think they look at all like US coinage, as evidenced by the website and 800 number on that. Are you saying that you've seen US coinage with a website URL on them?

If you were going to convict someone based on opinions, then I guess you could go after Chuck E Cheese for their "dollars" as long as someone had the opinion they looked like US coinage. That's why there are similitude laws - to make the laws OBJECTIVE and NOT SUBJECTIVE.

I'll restate what I said before: you can't claim that there was intent to counterfeit when you hired a lawyer to make sure you aren't violating similitude laws. Now, if someone else used them to pay a merchant that is expecting fiat, there may be an argument there, albeit a weak one as most store transactions lack a written contract and the person offering a LD could argue they were proposing new terms.

On a personal note, BurtW, why are you so on the US government's nuts? Are you a cop or something?

I'm grumpy!!
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June 26, 2013, 01:10:40 AM
#207


Then you have aspects like the $10 Silver coin having about $6 worth of Silver at the time of minting.  Everyone at every level got very large cuts of the profits.  Ultimately it was unsuspecting consumers who got $6 in Silver instead of $10 in FRN.


That's a completely irrelevant argument. There is no such thing as circulating coinage that has a metal content equal to the face value. If it did, it wouldn't circulate for long as people will take them out of circulation for the melt value.

.25 quarters contain only ~4 cents of metal

.05 nickels contain only ~4 cents of metal

.10 dimes = ~1.5 cents (about a 700% markup!)

Pennies from 1982 and earlier are worth about 2 cents each, and are slowly being taken out of circulation exactly for that reason.

I'm grumpy!!
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June 26, 2013, 01:15:57 AM
#208




Paul Clayton, senior counsel at the Department of Financial Institutions

Just to put a name and face on the record for the forces at work here. Wonder how much he actually knows about IT? Innovations in value exchange technologies?

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June 26, 2013, 01:18:51 AM
#209


Then you have aspects like the $10 Silver coin having about $6 worth of Silver at the time of minting.  Everyone at every level got very large cuts of the profits.  Ultimately it was unsuspecting consumers who got $6 in Silver instead of $10 in FRN.


That's a completely irrelevant argument. There is no such thing as circulating coinage that has a metal content equal to the face value. If it did, it wouldn't circulate for long as people will take them out of circulation for the melt value.

.25 quarters contain only ~4 cents of metal

.05 nickels contain only ~4 cents of metal

.10 dimes = ~1.5 cents (about a 700% markup!)

Pennies from 1982 and earlier are worth about 2 cents each, and are slowly being taken out of circulation exactly for that reason.

Well at one time the dollar had "one dollar" (which is a unit of weight) of gold.  It was either a dollars worth of gold in the coin itself or the paper note could be redeemed for a dollar.  Liberty claimed selling point is that it was backed by silver.  If it merely is a fiat currency sold over face value to the profit of issuers well in many respects it was worse than the federal reserve note.

I think we can just agree to disagree.  I read the states evidence and it is pretty damming.  Ultimately that is why we have juries.  Is it possible they had no intent to counterfeit (which doesn't mean produce an exact replica it means passing currency off as legal tender)?  Certainly however looking at the evidence if I was on the jury I likely would have sided the same way.

This will be my last post to avoid derailing this thread further.  Feel free to have the last word ....

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June 26, 2013, 01:34:20 AM
#210


Then you have aspects like the $10 Silver coin having about $6 worth of Silver at the time of minting.  Everyone at every level got very large cuts of the profits.  Ultimately it was unsuspecting consumers who got $6 in Silver instead of $10 in FRN.


That's a completely irrelevant argument. There is no such thing as circulating coinage that has a metal content equal to the face value. If it did, it wouldn't circulate for long as people will take them out of circulation for the melt value.

.25 quarters contain only ~4 cents of metal

.05 nickels contain only ~4 cents of metal

.10 dimes = ~1.5 cents (about a 700% markup!)

Pennies from 1982 and earlier are worth about 2 cents each, and are slowly being taken out of circulation exactly for that reason.

Well at one time the dollar had "one dollar" (which is a unit of weight) of gold.  It was either a dollars worth of gold in the coin itself or the paper note could be redeemed for a dollar.  Liberty claimed selling point is that it was backed by silver.  If it merely is a fiat currency sold over face value to the profit of issuers well in many respects it was worse than the federal reserve note.

I think we can just agree to disagree.  I read the states evidence and it is pretty damming.  Ultimately that is why we have juries.  Is it possible they had no intent to counterfeit (which doesn't mean produce an exact replica it means passing currency off as legal tender)?  Certainly however looking at the evidence if I was on the jury I likely would have sided the same way.

This will be my last post to avoid derailing this thread further.  Feel free to have the last word ....



you're still confused. "Dollars" today aren't "dollars" of 100 years ago. A "dollar" used to be defined as 371.25 grains of silver, now it has no meaning whatsoever. Silver dollars didn't even need a "face value" as they were what they were. And LDs were never "fiat", since they were never issued by the government. Please google "fiat - definition" to avoid being ignorant.

Furthermore, my last post was about metal content of coins, and you brought up notes (you should google what a "note " is too) - which are a whole different thing.

LD coins were the subject of the trial, not the warehouse receipts (LD didn't make "notes"). The coins weren't backed by silver - they WERE silver. The warehouse receipts were just what they said they were, and the government didn't even attempt to build a case around them, even though they stole the metals they represented.