We should build a seastead

[theymos]

The Bitcoin price is amazingly high, and it has stayed amazingly high for quite some time. I've been expecting it to crash for the last year, and I was especially expecting it to crash in response to the various B2X nonsense, but it's still quite high. These high prices may well be long-term-stable. Therefore, since we gentlemen are in fact the new wealthy elite, I think that the time has come to work toward a project that I know a lot of early Bitcoiners (including myself) have always dreamed of: a mostly-sovereign libertarian seastead. There must be a lot of Bitcoin millionaires who would be willing to work toward this.

The Seasteading Institute (TSI) has an example seastead design with a total estimated cost of $115 million with room for 270 people. So that'd be an average of $425,000 per person up-front, plus a yearly maintenance cost of $13,000 per person. IMO it should be fairly easy to fund something this size from Bitcoiners, and you could probably go even bigger/better. TSI has already done a ton of research/engineering work and built a ton of connections, so a project to actually build something like this would have a great head-start.

The main goal of seasteading is to have a jurisdiction with minimal-possible regulation and government involvement, creating a space for extreme innovation. Like Hong Kong, but even better. At least to start with, you'd probably have to officially be under some government's jurisdiction (via a special agreement with that government), but it will hopefully be possible to keep this very minimal. TSI has already had some success in negotiating this stuff with some governments. Another goal would be to create a good environment for the people living on the seastead: fast Internet (maybe via laser links), high security, overall good facilities, etc.

Who here is interested in participating in this, and what would you want a seastead to have before living on one? I'm not going to collect any money from people, but if there's enough interest (maybe $75 million or so), we can hire some people who actually know what they're doing and create a proper company with a board of directors, etc. Maybe it could even be made into an ICO, though I'm pretty skeptical of those in general.

[mprep]

The Bitcoin price is amazingly high, and it has stayed amazingly high for quite some time. I've been expecting it to crash for the last year, and I was especially expecting it to crash in response to the various B2X nonsense, but it's still quite high. These high prices may well be long-term-stable. Therefore, since we gentlemen are in fact the new wealthy elite, I think that the time has come to work toward a project that I know a lot of early Bitcoiners (including myself) have always dreamed of: a mostly-sovereign libertarian seastead. There must be a lot of Bitcoin millionaires who would be willing to work toward this.

Putting aside my thoughts about the stability of the $7800+ BTC pricepoint at this point in time, how about we don't follow in the steps of fictional villains? Even if we did, politically extreme utopian societies don't really have a good track record. Then again maybe an echo chamber of rich guys in the middle of the ocean will work better.

The Seasteading Institute (TSI) has an example seastead design with a total estimated cost of $115 million with room for 270 people. So that'd be an average of $425,000 per person up-front, plus a yearly maintenance cost of $13,000 per person. IMO it should be fairly easy to fund something this size from Bitcoiners, and you could probably go even bigger/better. TSI has already done a ton of research/engineering work and built a ton of connections, so a project to actually build something like this would have a great head-start.

Yet for some reason I haven't heard of any major scale project that pulled it off. Could it be that the unpredictability of the sea (extreme weather conditions, piracy, political pressures) isn't exactly the best place to permanently house hundreds of people? Though again, who knows? Maybe tech reached a point as to where it's already possible though I'm still thoroughly skeptical in regards to possible external issues.

The main goal of seasteading is to have a jurisdiction with minimal-possible regulation and government involvement, creating a space for extreme innovation. Like Hong Kong, but even better. At least to start with, you'd probably have to officially be under some government's jurisdiction (via a special agreement with that government), but it will hopefully be possible to keep this very minimal. TSI has already had some success in negotiating this stuff with some governments. Another goal would be to create a good environment for the people living on the seastead: fast Internet (maybe via laser links), high security, overall good facilities, etc.

Any sovereign micro-nation in the middle of literally nowhere, who isn't associated with a world power (or is an offshore tax haven), is sooner or later going to either face "liberation" or a coup (lust for power tends to corrupt). Take it from the guy whose nation was annexed by, no, I'm sorry, "voluntarily joined" the USSR. Also, Hong Kong? So, restrictions on freedom of the press, crackdowns on protestors and covert surveillance with China breathing down your neck.

Who here is interested in participating in this, and what would you want a seastead to have before living on one? I'm not going to collect any money from people, but if there's enough interest (maybe $75 million or so), we can hire some people who actually know what they're doing and create a proper company with a board of directors, etc. Maybe it could even be made into an ICO, though I'm pretty skeptical of those in general.

Throwing money to run away from society's problems seems a bit childish TBH. I mean it does work if you have astronomical amounts of it but a few mil isn't going to be enough to patch up any of the aforementioned holes once they pop up. Then again if this was some sort of a temporary hotel / resort (as the Seasteding Institute's linked design mentioned), it might work though I really think this is going to cost way beyond several million dollars each.

[KingScorpio]

The Bitcoin price is amazingly high, and it has stayed amazingly high for quite some time. I've been expecting it to crash for the last year, and I was especially expecting it to crash in response to the various B2X nonsense, but it's still quite high. These high prices may well be long-term-stable. Therefore, since we gentlemen are in fact the new wealthy elite, I think that the time has come to work toward a project that I know a lot of early Bitcoiners (including myself) have always dreamed of: a mostly-sovereign libertarian seastead. There must be a lot of Bitcoin millionaires who would be willing to work toward this.

The Seasteading Institute (TSI) has an example seastead design with a total estimated cost of $115 million with room for 270 people. So that'd be an average of $425,000 per person up-front, plus a yearly maintenance cost of $13,000 per person. IMO it should be fairly easy to fund something this size from Bitcoiners, and you could probably go even bigger/better. TSI has already done a ton of research/engineering work and built a ton of connections, so a project to actually build something like this would have a great head-start.

The main goal of seasteading is to have a jurisdiction with minimal-possible regulation and government involvement, creating a space for extreme innovation. Like Hong Kong, but even better. At least to start with, you'd probably have to officially be under some government's jurisdiction (via a special agreement with that government), but it will hopefully be possible to keep this very minimal. TSI has already had some success in negotiating this stuff with some governments. Another goal would be to create a good environment for the people living on the seastead: fast Internet (maybe via laser links), high security, overall good facilities, etc.

Who here is interested in participating in this, and what would you want a seastead to have before living on one? I'm not going to collect any money from people, but if there's enough interest (maybe $75 million or so), we can hire some people who actually know what they're doing and create a proper company with a board of directors, etc. Maybe it could even be made into an ICO, though I'm pretty skeptical of those in general.

bitcoin price is high because people simply hold it, and market it, if their mindset changes the market collapses

[Ucy]

Very great stuff sir.. I think it's 100% doable!   There are numerous ways to source for  funds... ICO is certainly part of them. It will most likely be one of very few ICOs that is unique and VIABLE. Would be great to see most of the city automated and run on an extraordinary level of transparency.

I seriously would want this to be a success whether am part of the city or not. World leaders need to be know that Nations can be ran without large and wasteful governments/bureaucracies

The city will serve as model to the entire World. The current approach to governance and city dwelling are quite limiting, outdated and primitive. I am a believer this project.
I am truly glad you'll be part of it.

[mprep]

Very great stuff sir.. I think it's 100% doable!   There are numerous ways to source for  funds... ICO is certainly part of them. It will most likely be one of very few ICOs that is unique and VIABLE. Would be great to see most of the city automated and run on an extraordinary level of transparency.

Automated? Unless you plan to surround the city with advanced auto-targeting turrets than can tell friend from foe and use a nearly-sentient AI to solve any infrastructure issues that pop up (such as damaged buildings, maintenance, medical emergencies, etc.), this is far from automated.

I seriously would want this to be a success whether am part of the city or not. World leaders need to be know that Nations can be ran without large and wasteful governments/bureaucracies

It can if the populace is comprised of like-minded millionaires. Not quite sure how you could apply that model to regular countries with massive and diverse populations without it ending up in the usual "massive mansions surrounded by slums" scenario many east Asian countries seem to exhibit.

The city will serve as model to the entire World.The current approach to governance and city dwelling are quite limiting, outdated and primitive. I am a believer this project.
I am truly glad you'll be part of it.

All this would ever be is a rich boys club at best or a tax haven for shady and immoral corporations to prosper at worst. While I'll agree that the current governing model is prone to corruption, solving the issue of people breaking the rules by removing most of said rules seems counter-intuitive. If you think this would be a great "model to the entire World" and aren't a millionaire, your ignorance truly baffles me.

[RocketSingh]

I think, Roger Ver & Olivier Janssens are trying something similar - https://www.freesociety.com/

[theymos]

how about we don't follow in the steps of fictional villains? Even if we did, politically extreme utopian societies don't really have a good track record.

Things to watch out for, to be sure, but past and fictional failures shouldn't prevent us from trying to create better societies.

Any sovereign micro-nation in the middle of literally nowhere, who isn't associated with a world power (or is an offshore tax haven), is sooner or later going to either face "liberation"

That's why to start with you have to fly the flag of some country under a special agreement. Then any attacks will be equal to an attack on the flag country. Long-term, once there are a lot of seasteads, they can build their own independent militaries and work together for mutual defense.

It can if the populace is comprised of like-minded millionaires. Not quite sure how you could apply that model to regular countries with massive and diverse populations without it ending up in the usual "massive mansions surrounded by slums" scenario many east Asian countries seem to exhibit.

Libertarianism isn't just for the wealthy. In fact, the reverse is true: today, the wealthy have unprecedented control via their huge influence over governments; as a result, the rich get richer and the poor are kept in their place. A seastead would at first probably be populated mostly by higher-income people due to the great initial expense, but over time this'd change. People go where opportunities are, and a minimally-regulated seastead will offer tons of opportunities for everyone. With the sweat of your brow, a seastead can become your city as well!

And while I support a libertarian seastead, the great thing about seasteading is that you can create many seasteads with different societies. If you want a mixed-economy government with whatever measures against corruption you think will work, you could do it.

I think, Roger Ver & Olivier Janssens are trying something similar - https://www.freesociety.com/

I would be happy if they succeed at the stated goals, but I don't trust those guys at all...

[mprep]

<...>

It can if the populace is comprised of like-minded millionaires. Not quite sure how you could apply that model to regular countries with massive and diverse populations without it ending up in the usual "massive mansions surrounded by slums" scenario many east Asian countries seem to exhibit.

Libertarianism isn't just for the wealthy. In fact, the reverse is true: today, the wealthy have unprecedented control via their huge influence over governments; as a result, the rich get richer and the poor are kept in their place. A seastead would at first probably be populated mostly by higher-income people due to the great initial expense, but over time this'd change. People go where opportunities are, and a minimally-regulated seastead will offer tons of opportunities for everyone. With the sweat of your brow, a seastead can become your city as well!

<...>

Honestly, this just sounds like picking uncontrolled corporations working as intended (maximum profits at the expense of everyone else) over governments that aren't (corruption, inefficiency, etc.). The "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer" would simply be the intended result rather than an unfortunate consequence. As much as you people seem to go on how "authoritarian" the US is (I mean mass surveillance does seem to be a massive issue), you seem to take a lot of the things for granted. It starts from small things like general safety after dark (even in the capital, stepping out after dark without a group isn't exactly considered safe) or having to pay western Europe prices with eastern Europe wages to more broad issues like not having to fear for "liberation" from our former "friends" from the East. All of which really makes me question whether any of you understand what libertarianism truly entails in the old world or do you just not care?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but libertarianism hinges on as much individual social and economic freedom as possible, right? Which means price gouging on vital medicinal goods (see the Epipen price gouging scandal), de-facto oligopolies that crackdown on any rising competition (see Internet providers in the US), exploitative business practices on both the employee (extremely long working hours, low wages, unpaid overtime, fired after a project) and consumer (Skinner box-based pricing schemes, thinly veiled gambling schemes available to children, etc.) sides (see Electronic Arts), uncontrolled environmental pollution (see oil and coal industries), a higher education system that sets you back decades financially (unless you happen to be a genius or have rich parents) and a healthcare system where a person has to wear a vest warning others not to call an ambulance when he has a seizure since that would cost him a third of his monthly paycheck are all fine since they don't violate any rights if you don't use these (often vital) goods and / or services, right?

Hell, all of this is under the US's so called "authoritarian" capitalism. How about child labor, piss poor working conditions and wages (since everyone's gotta eat and there's always someone looking for work), pollution to the point where wearing protective masks is mandatory if you don't want to die by 40 from lung cancer, healthcare financially off-limits to a big chunk of the working class? Even if we were to ignore all of this and assume that hard work = wealth, what about the elderly, who are incapable of working anymore, the mentally or physically disabled, the people who got fucked over / used and disposed of afterwards by the aforementioned exploitative individuals / corporations? Are you going to just leave them to die? If not, where are you going to get the money from? The bare minimum taxes that'll already be spread thin in order to maintain security and basic infrastructure?

Call me cynical, but I think I might be living in a different world, 'cause yours sounds like candyland.

how about we don't follow in the steps of fictional villains? Even if we did, politically extreme utopian societies don't really have a good track record.

Things to watch out for, to be sure, but past and fictional failures shouldn't prevent us from trying to create better societies.

Any sovereign micro-nation in the middle of literally nowhere, who isn't associated with a world power (or is an offshore tax haven), is sooner or later going to either face "liberation"

That's why to start with you have to fly the flag of some country under a special agreement. Then any attacks will be equal to an attack on the flag country. Long-term, once there are a lot of seasteads, they can build their own independent militaries and work together for mutual defense.

It can if the populace is comprised of like-minded millionaires. Not quite sure how you could apply that model to regular countries with massive and diverse populations without it ending up in the usual "massive mansions surrounded by slums" scenario many east Asian countries seem to exhibit.

<...>

And while I support a libertarian seastead, the great thing about seasteading is that you can create many seasteads with different societies. If you want a mixed-economy government with whatever measures against corruption you think will work, you could do it.

Fair points. Can't really object or add to anything here.

[rico666]

It always amazes me how a well rendered picture of the human equivalent to an ant colony - pictured during nice weather - fosters fantasy of the new-rich.

"Childish" doesn't even come anywhere near to describe this.

If you really do not know what to do with your easily gained riches, write me a PM and we'll work something out for sure.

[buwaytress]

Took me a while to dig this out, just reminded me about an old idea seemingly abandoned by creator: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1964768.msg19532430#msg19532430

Setting aside my own natural scepticisms and reservations on libertarian societies, most painfully obvious to me is the propensity of individualism to somehow emerge as the dominant threat to those ideals, I wonder if there would be an opportunity for other "talents" to also participate? Perhaps not as a resident but someone who'd (seriously) contribute external to this development team?

At current price, even "21-Club" members would barely have half of the required amount. Can't say for sure these people would want to reveal themselves either.

I do agree though: just because history remembers the (many) failures of such extreme ideas, shouldn't mean we shouldn't continue trying.

[KingScorpio]

I think, Roger Ver & Olivier Janssens are trying something similar - https://www.freesociety.com/

architects have a lot to plan but you need a huge enslaved world population for this and a pyramid structure to realise it,

thats not working with the banksters we have currently they are broken and uncooperative.

regards

[thr3]

I actually liked the whole idea but when I saw "$115 million with room for 270 people", two things came into my mind ----someone wants to make a profit or someone doesn't know what they are getting into. Building structures on the sea can be extremely expensive. The deeper you go the more expensive it gets. The STI conducts research, they haven't actually built anything concrete. One way to do it is to buy your own island and declare it a sovereign. Problem is if other nations don't recognize it you are screwed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_micronations

[rico666]

Problem is if other nations don't recognize it you are screwed

Except you are China.

http://www.newsweek.com/china-south-china-sea-islands-build-military-territory-expand-575161

[amishmanish]

<...>

It can if the populace is comprised of like-minded millionaires. Not quite sure how you could apply that model to regular countries with massive and diverse populations without it ending up in the usual "massive mansions surrounded by slums" scenario many east Asian countries seem to exhibit.

Libertarianism isn't just for the wealthy. In fact, the reverse is true: today, the wealthy have unprecedented control via their huge influence over governments; as a result, the rich get richer and the poor are kept in their place. A seastead would at first probably be populated mostly by higher-income people due to the great initial expense, but over time this'd change. People go where opportunities are, and a minimally-regulated seastead will offer tons of opportunities for everyone. With the sweat of your brow, a seastead can become your city as well!

<...>

Honestly, this just sounds like picking uncontrolled corporations working as intended (maximum profits at the expense of everyone else) over governments that aren't (corruption, inefficiency, etc.). The "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer" would simply be the intended result rather than an unfortunate consequence. As much as you people seem to go on how "authoritarian" the US is (I mean mass surveillance does seem to be a massive issue), you seem to take a lot of the things for granted. ..... All of which really makes me question whether any of you understand what libertarianism truly entails in the old world or do you just not care?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but libertarianism hinges on as much individual social and economic freedom as possible, right? Which means price gouging on vital medicinal goods (see the Epipen price gouging scandal), de-facto oligopolies that crackdown on any rising competition (see Internet providers in the US), exploitative business practices on both the employee (extremely long working hours, low wages, unpaid overtime, fired after a project) and consumer (Skinner box-based pricing schemes, thinly veiled gambling schemes available to children, etc.) sides (see Electronic Arts), uncontrolled environmental pollution (see oil and coal industries), a higher education system that sets you back decades financially (unless you happen to be a genius or have rich parents) and a healthcare system where a person has to wear a vest warning others not to call an ambulance when he has a seizure since that would cost him a third of his monthly paycheck are all fine since they don't violate any rights if you don't use these (often vital) goods and / or services, right?

Hell, all of this is under the US's so called "authoritarian" capitalism. How about child labor, piss poor working conditions and wages (since everyone's gotta eat and there's always someone looking for work), pollution to the point where wearing protective masks is mandatory if you don't want to die by 40 from lung cancer, healthcare financially off-limits to a big chunk of the working class? Even if we were to ignore all of this and assume that hard work = wealth, what about the elderly, who are incapable of working anymore, the mentally or physically disabled, the people who got fucked over / used and disposed of afterwards by the aforementioned exploitative individuals / corporations? Are you going to just leave them to die? If not, where are you going to get the money from? The bare minimum taxes that'll already be spread thin in order to maintain security and basic infrastructure?

Call me cynical, but I think I might be living in a different world, 'cause yours sounds like candyland.

Thanks a lot mprep for putting this in perspective for a lot of us. Especially the newbies. I was super excited to see a new post by THE THEYMOS himself. All you guys are pretty much part of the folklore at r/bitcoin and r/btc.

Its really easy to get excited about these "Lets make a government-free utopia" ideas and forget about the real world, where real survival problems still exist. Its easy to be disgusted by the mess that Governments make and all that they have failed to accomplish. If you go deeper, it becomes clear that governance is a problem of "keeping everyone together despite their differences". How do you ensure that everyone has equal opportunity and equal chances of survival in a heterogeneous society.

Seems like a homogeneous society made up of the BTC millionaires would be an ideal experiment in seeing if similar thinking people really can  solve the problems of governance. Though you gotta ask that what exactly are they solving when they have no problems??!!

That in turn made me question how bitcoin has come so far from its idea of an equal society to funding charmful ideas as these??

I feel this really doesn't help anybody except satisfying an old fantasy but hey, that's what the rich are supposed to do right?? Entertain their eccentricities and childhood fantasies. Those in turn can either go horribly wrong or inspire people to higher ideals. If its the former then we the commoners can say, told'ya and if its the latter then well, its good for everybody.

This was an exciting discussion. Looking forward to more of it.

[SureLockLoans]

I actually liked the whole idea but when I saw "$115 million with room for 270 people", two things came into my mind ----someone wants to make a profit or someone doesn't know what they are getting into. Building structures on the sea can be extremely expensive. The deeper you go the more expensive it gets. The STI conducts research, they haven't actually built anything concrete. One way to do it is to buy your own island and declare it a sovereign. Problem is if other nations don't recognize it you are screwed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_micronations

AFAIK this would be built on the surface of the ocean and would ideally be located in a safe zone from natural disasters. You are still right about the maintenance except for the depth. It would require constant up keep which I would think 13,000 per person would probably be enough. Especially if you have around the estimated number of people it can home.  

Anything which involves going deeper into the ocean would require more than double the amount being paid.

[shield132]

I want to cry when I remember how someone bought two pizza with 10 000 bitcoin. That pizza could make that dream very possible but past is past, we can't fix it.

Theymos are you going to use forum donations for that? Or maybe those were already spent.....

P.S put link of this thread somewhere in Bold Text to make it easy for everyone to find because here we have really reach people who could think about this project. I would put it under navigation bar.

[MrCrank]

Wow, this is great idea.
I think this create it is possible.

Why your team choose sea?

Another idea will can make flying like big airship.
If you want I can make easy prototype (scheme only)
I know aerodynamics and aircraft construction.

[thr3]

Problem is if other nations don't recognize it you are screwed

Except you are China.

http://www.newsweek.com/china-south-china-sea-islands-build-military-territory-expand-575161

China is already an established nation. Look at Barcelona ----> that is what will happen to you if you try it in unfriendly territory.

[Rosewater Foundation]

Maybe it could even be made into an ICO, though I'm pretty skeptical of those in general.

This is a horrible pipe dream. Please, kids. I'm begging you. Just no.

[Dabs]

Multi-signature Escrow if in Bitcoin. The ICO that is.

The artwork has a lot of Pentagons in it.

You will still need some form of government, maybe the richest dude is Mayor or something.

Your government will also need it's own security, or military force. I've been waiting for a promotion for awhile, I'd be happy to be the first General / Admiral, LOL. And yes, we'd need a school for that, unless you recruit "foreigners" like the French Foreign Legion.

And then of course, since it would have it's own power, you can set aside a little area, probably underwater and water cooled, to stuff in some ASIC miners, like a few thousand TH/s, all residents get "free" transactions, not like they can't afford it anyway. Yeah, everyone feel free to join the Seastead Mining Pool, No Fees.


But seriously, it's a floating affluent gated community on water.