We should build a seastead

[theymos]

Since bitcoin's prise is almost 3x higher than it was at the time when theymos created this thread, is this idea still in review?

What do you think theymos? Or are you waiting for another halving(s)?

I've increasingly realized over the years that the limiting factor for any project, and especially for big "dream projects" like this, is time/effort/skill/ambition, not money. I'd be willing to throw money at a realistic project to create a seastead (or a land-based increased-autonomy region), but do I want to spend hundreds of hours working on it? Not really. It's something I'd like to see exist and maybe someday live in, but it's not my passion.

Elwar spent massive amounts of time and money to actually create a seastead, and in the end it was stolen from him and he almost died... I admire the effort he went through the first time, and I admire even more the fact that he's still working on it. But while I wouldn't require nightly cocktails and endless buffets, unlike true pioneers like Elwar, I'd like to at least be pretty confident in the safety and stability of a seastead before I'd consider moving to one. For people like me, I suppose the best thing to do would be to donate to https://www.seasteading.org (accepts BTC!) and wait for the space to mature.

[malevolent]

Given the risks and inconveniences involved in trying to live on a sea (especially outside EEZs), wouldn't it be at some point be easier to figure out a way to find a country willing to part with sovereignty over a small piece of land in a non-strategic location? Bir Tawil also looks interesting, but not sure whether it has water without having to drill too deep.

[Elwar]

find a country willing to part with sovereignty

Please find me a country willing to part with a bit of sovereignty.


Apparently a nation sees a threat if even one square inch of their country is no longer under benevolent control of its mighty government. To take that away is to imply that the government is not the best in the world.

It's like saying "can't we just have one guy on <insert your favorite sportsball team> wear a different uniform?". Government is a religion. To ask your religion to allow just a tiny bit of another religion in their realm is blasphemy.

[hulla]

Bir Tawil (aka water well) shouldn't be see as an interesting location cause it is a deserted territory with just sand, mountains and no water that's the reason why it was not claimed by Sudan or Egypt.
I think British Virgin Islands, Zimbabwe and Liberland could be the best place part with sovereignty.

[Lorence.xD]

Given the risks and inconveniences involved in trying to live on a sea (especially outside EEZs), wouldn't it be at some point be easier to figure out a way to find a country willing to part with sovereignty over a small piece of land in a non-strategic location? Bir Tawil also looks interesting, but not sure whether it has water without having to drill too deep.

We don't have to drill to build seasteads, the world is almost ocean, a seastead should have its own sovereignty. We can copy how cruise ships work, they are quasi seasteads, you can live there for the rest of your life if you want. The only problem with seasteads is that it will need a lot of resources because it has to function like a country but that isn't enough to outweigh the benefits of seastead, people can choose who will govern them and seasteads will be competing for people to live in them because they have the most basic economy and they need people to make it work or seasteads can be used for economic experiments like UBI(Universal Basic Income), Cryptocurrency Driven Economy, and other Economic theories that we are too afraid to try in countries because the implications are just too big to do it there.

[Lucius]

I think British Virgin Islands, Zimbabwe and Liberland could be the best place part with sovereignty.

I can't comment on BVI or Zimbabwe, but as far as Liberland is concerned, this should not be considered a serious story because Croatia understood the whole thing as a joke. Namely, they do not consider that part of the territory as "terra nullius" but will decide on it at the international arbitration, it's just a question of when that will happen.

Even if by some chance that territory becomes accessible, would anyone want to find himself between Croatia and Serbia if we take into account what happened in that area only 30 years ago, and it is only a matter of time before it happens again.

[Ucy]

Given the risks and inconveniences involved in trying to live on a sea (especially outside EEZs), wouldn't it be at some point be easier to figure out a way to find a country willing to part with sovereignty over a small piece of land in a non-strategic location? Bir Tawil also looks interesting, but not sure whether it has water without having to drill too deep.

I think we can have autonomous nations within the countries we live as long as we are willing to cooperate with the governments and obey their good Laws.

Earth belongs to all of us.

[MRKLYE]

With blackjack and hookers though?

[icopress]

Damn, an unrealistically cool idea ... I just watched the movie "Rose Island" just recently, (hopefully you won't be building off the coast of Italy, lol). If anyone has read this thread and the OP's post, and at the same time did not watch this movie, then be sure to take a look, (the story is worth learning more about it).

The film is based on real events that took place in the 60s ... "In 1968, the island of Roses was created by an engineer from Bologna, Giorgio Rosa, in the neutral waters of the Adriatic Sea, 11.5 km from the coast of Rimini, and on May 1, 1968, the independent state of the Island of Roses was proclaimed". "The island became incredibly popular with tourists, especially young people, and every morning a boat brought groups of tourists to the island who enjoyed their freedom all day long".

[malevolent]

Bir Tawil (aka water well) shouldn't be see as an interesting location cause it is a deserted territory with just sand, mountains and no water that's the reason why it was not claimed by Sudan or Egypt.
I think British Virgin Islands, Zimbabwe and Liberland could be the best place part with sovereignty.

Has anyone bothered to properly search for water, though?

And there's more to it than that, whichever country would decide to lay claim on Bir Tawil would have to forfeit claim over the more attractive and larger Hala'ib Triangle.

Please find me a country willing to part with a bit of sovereignty.

Unfortunately most examples I can think of are from pre-contemporary history, and most are transactions between state actors anyway.

Vaguely related: I stumbled upon "The Market for Sovereign Control" just now, if anyone's interested: https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=3880&context=dlj

[Kakmakr]

Just as a matter of interest, how has the funding requirements changed since 2017... because I doubt that those prices would still be applicable after 4 years? (Also with the actual building experience done by Elwar)

Normally the cost estimation is way different from the actual cost, once you start a project like this. (Lots of things pop up, that was never thought of when it was done on paper)  

It is a pity that the Thai government crashed the project, because it would have been a dream come true to see something like that. What about a seastead without the  libertarian independence, but rather a seastead for libertarians to live. (based on a Bitcoin economy where most commerce are done with bitcoins) - People can still offer fiat payment for visitors, but the people living there will mostly use Crypto currencies.  

[Elwar]

Just as a matter of interest, how has the funding requirements changed since 2017... because I doubt that those prices would still be applicable after 4 years? (Also with the actual building experience done by Elwar)

Normally the cost estimation is way different from the actual cost, once you start a project like this. (Lots of things pop up, that was never thought of when it was done on paper)  

It is a pity that the Thai government crashed the project, because it would have been a dream come true to see something like that. What about a seastead without the  libertarian independence, but rather a seastead for libertarians to live. (based on a Bitcoin economy where most commerce are done with bitcoins) - People can still offer fiat payment for visitors, but the people living there will mostly use Crypto currencies.  

The key is that it's really difficult to estimate the price of one of the super megastructure seasteads. I will give a word of advice if you ever consider investing in a seastead project. Only put money in if it's going directly to pay construction workers building the actual thing. Everything else is just paying a bunch of guys to sit around in meetings, paying for marketing, paying for trips to various sunny locations, etc. I put way too much money into seastead projects where this was all that was done.

At Ocean Builders I keep pushing the founders to not spend money on marketing or people just sitting around theorising (the founders are not paid salaries, we put almost every bit of our investment into the factory, the materials and the workers). Everything we spend money on, I remind them how much that will push the price of the individual home up for the final buyer. And we are trying to make these affordable.

I know of 4 projects right now. One is a super megastructure that has been burning through millions of dollars over the past 5 years coming up with designs, lawyers, negotiations, meetings, etc. They appear to be hoping that someone will be willing to pay over a billion dollars for one of their units. They are not trying to do anything political, just sell luxury homes. I will not endorse this project as it does not seem viable.

Another is focusing on floating wave breakers that create energy from the waves. They're approaching it practically, working with a government under the premise of protecting the shores of that country while creating energy. They are self funded with a couple of guys out on a big research vessel trying out their technology. I hope they do well.

Another is a small scale floating home like Ocean Builders but theirs can take some rough waves, built so waves could go over them and they'd still be ok: https://ventivefloathouse.com/

Ocean Builders https://oceanbuilders.com is focusing right now on manufacturing and sales. We're a bunch of engineers that haven't manufactured anything before so it wouldn't make sense for us to start building and selling seasteads in middle of the ocean. Instead we're taking a phased approach, starting with just what is essentially a "houseboat" that will be like a luxury floating home in a beautiful anchorage in Panama, anchored right next to dozens of other anchored boats near a marina so there's really no legal or new lifestyle we need to create from scratch, there are already people there living in the water. This will allow us to get the process of building floating homes down before expanding into deep water versions. The deep water versions will just put the living portion of the home on a new spar built for different seas. But we're likely a few years from being anywhere other than the small anchorage we're at right now, and most people are not willing to move to Panama just to live in a floating house so we'll be focusing mainly on local investors. We already have plenty of demand, now we need to get production up to meet the demand.

[hulla]

Bir Tawil (aka water well) shouldn't be see as an interesting location cause it is a deserted territory with just sand, mountains and no water that's the reason why it was not claimed by Sudan or Egypt.
I think British Virgin Islands, Zimbabwe and Liberland could be the best place part with sovereignty.

Has anyone bothered to properly search for water, though?

And there's more to it than that, whichever country would decide to lay claim on Bir Tawil would have to forfeit claim over the more attractive and larger Hala'ib Triangle.

According to what I have read a well was once dug inside the Bir Tawil which I believe the well name was the reason why the place is called Bir Tawil but no one seems to currently know where the well is or what happened to it probably the well was filled by sand through simoom since the area is mostly sand or dry mountains and there's no actual road.

[Kakmakr]

Just as a matter of interest, how has the funding requirements changed since 2017... because I doubt that those prices would still be applicable after 4 years? (Also with the actual building experience done by Elwar)

Normally the cost estimation is way different from the actual cost, once you start a project like this. (Lots of things pop up, that was never thought of when it was done on paper)  

It is a pity that the Thai government crashed the project, because it would have been a dream come true to see something like that. What about a seastead without the  libertarian independence, but rather a seastead for libertarians to live. (based on a Bitcoin economy where most commerce are done with bitcoins) - People can still offer fiat payment for visitors, but the people living there will mostly use Crypto currencies.  

The key is that it's really difficult to estimate the price of one of the super megastructure seasteads. I will give a word of advice if you ever consider investing in a seastead project. Only put money in if it's going directly to pay construction workers building the actual thing. Everything else is just paying a bunch of guys to sit around in meetings, paying for marketing, paying for trips to various sunny locations, etc. I put way too much money into seastead projects where this was all that was done.

At Ocean Builders I keep pushing the founders to not spend money on marketing or people just sitting around theorising (the founders are not paid salaries, we put almost every bit of our investment into the factory, the materials and the workers). Everything we spend money on, I remind them how much that will push the price of the individual home up for the final buyer. And we are trying to make these affordable.

I know of 4 projects right now. One is a super megastructure that has been burning through millions of dollars over the past 5 years coming up with designs, lawyers, negotiations, meetings, etc. They appear to be hoping that someone will be willing to pay over a billion dollars for one of their units. They are not trying to do anything political, just sell luxury homes. I will not endorse this project as it does not seem viable.

Another is focusing on floating wave breakers that create energy from the waves. They're approaching it practically, working with a government under the premise of protecting the shores of that country while creating energy. They are self funded with a couple of guys out on a big research vessel trying out their technology. I hope they do well.

Another is a small scale floating home like Ocean Builders but theirs can take some rough waves, built so waves could go over them and they'd still be ok: https://ventivefloathouse.com/

Ocean Builders https://oceanbuilders.com is focusing right now on manufacturing and sales. We're a bunch of engineers that haven't manufactured anything before so it wouldn't make sense for us to start building and selling seasteads in middle of the ocean. Instead we're taking a phased approach, starting with just what is essentially a "houseboat" that will be like a luxury floating home in a beautiful anchorage in Panama, anchored right next to dozens of other anchored boats near a marina so there's really no legal or new lifestyle we need to create from scratch, there are already people there living in the water. This will allow us to get the process of building floating homes down before expanding into deep water versions. The deep water versions will just put the living portion of the home on a new spar built for different seas. But we're likely a few years from being anywhere other than the small anchorage we're at right now, and most people are not willing to move to Panama just to live in a floating house so we'll be focusing mainly on local investors. We already have plenty of demand, now we need to get production up to meet the demand.

Thank you for your detailed response, but I just have a few more questions.

Would it not be better to buy old oil rigs and then convert that to living spaces? The oil rigs can withstand high seas and they can be moved and no research and development would be necessary... reducing the funds needed for this.  

The oil rigs can also be retrofitted to serve as energy generators at the bottom of the pylons? (Hydro electricity) to provide energy for the small households on top?

These platforms can definitely operate in International waters ... but as you have experienced.. that does not matter to authorities. (Also... distance is not practical if you live that far away from civilization)    (Boats can be lifted out of the water and Helicopters can be used for traveling)

 

[Ucy]

One of my favorite concept so far:


You can watch it here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DIRTTWVa_9A&feature=youtu.be

Looks decentralized. Though im not very sure about design and how well it will work on difficult water without too much problems

[malevolent]

//

While you're here if you don't mind , is it feasible to live entirely off of fish, crustaceans and maybe algae, without having to leave the sea?

Thank you for your detailed response, but I just have a few more questions.

Would it not be better to buy old oil rigs and then convert that to living spaces? The oil rigs can withstand high seas and they can be moved and no research and development would be necessary... reducing the funds needed for this. 

The oil rigs can also be retrofitted to serve as energy generators at the bottom of the pylons? (Hydro electricity) to provide energy for the small households on top?

These platforms can definitely operate in International waters ... but as you have experienced.. that does not matter to authorities. (Also... distance is not practical if you live that far away from civilization)    (Boats can be lifted out of the water and Helicopters can be used for traveling)

Aren't they pretty expensive to run? And afaik people can only get on them via cranes or helicopters.

[Elwar]

Thank you for your detailed response, but I just have a few more questions.

Would it not be better to buy old oil rigs and then convert that to living spaces? The oil rigs can withstand high seas and they can be moved and no research and development would be necessary... reducing the funds needed for this.  

The oil rigs can also be retrofitted to serve as energy generators at the bottom of the pylons? (Hydro electricity) to provide energy for the small households on top?

These platforms can definitely operate in International waters ... but as you have experienced.. that does not matter to authorities. (Also... distance is not practical if you live that far away from civilization)    (Boats can be lifted out of the water and Helicopters can be used for traveling)

They are expensive to maintain. As Elon Musk showed, you can buy one for about $3-4 million which is fairly cheap. Oil companies are fine with using them because they're pulling millions of dollars up from the ground every day so flying a helicopter to the rig or other expensive ways of getting on there and taking care of provisions, etc. are covered. As I learned by owning a cruise ship, you need a lot of income to maintain these huge beasts. The oil industry and cruise industry have a lot of money flowing in to keep these things on the water.

Someone actually bought one and turned it into a hotel. At least they tried to. Turned out to not be very popular and now they're looking for donations and volunteers to keep things going. https://fptower.org/

While you're here if you don't mind  , is it feasible to live entirely off of fish, crustaceans and maybe algae, without having to leave the sea?

That's the ideal. Fish farms, etc. We're working on putting hydroponics in our homes, theoretically you can live off of microgreens but it takes a lot of time and they're not that tasty.

There's no need to give up on the international market just because you live a little further from the store than you used to.


Here's our speech at Anarchapulco last year on what we're working on here in Panama.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxrsSI90OBA

[Elwar]

One of my favorite concept so far:


You can watch it here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DIRTTWVa_9A&feature=youtu.be

Looks decentralized. Though im not very sure about design and how well it will work on difficult water without too much problems

I like this concept as well. They get it right with the shape. Anything above water needs more weight at the bottom than the top. When we calculate the width of our platform on top of the spar we have to take into account someone at the highest story walking to the edge, then factor in the tilt factor. For us we consider a dinner party where 4-5 people of average weight goes to one side of the highest point. We figure a tilt of less than 5% is probably reasonable.

If it is shaped like a pyramid or a cone then you can have wider bottom floors. I have proposed a design that looks sort of like a wedding cake which would allow you to go stand on the balcony which is the size of the floor below you.

[Ucy]

One of my favorite concept so far:


You can watch it here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DIRTTWVa_9A&feature=youtu.be

Looks decentralized. Though im not very sure about design and how well it will work on difficult water without too much problems

I like this concept as well. They get it right with the shape. Anything above water needs more weight at the bottom than the top. When we calculate the width of our platform on top of the spar we have to take into account someone at the highest story walking to the edge, then factor in the tilt factor. For us we consider a dinner party where 4-5 people of average weight goes to one side of the highest point. We figure a tilt of less than 5% is probably reasonable.

If it is shaped like a pyramid or a cone then you can have wider bottom floors. I have proposed a design that looks sort of like a wedding cake which would allow you to go stand on the balcony which is the size of the floor below you.

Wondered if that can run really fast on water without tumbling. I'm more interested on design that allows proper air flow around a streamlined body. Pyramid doesn't look really streamline.
Saw your sea project. I salute your courage!

[stompix]

I think British Virgin Islands, Zimbabwe and Liberland could be the best place part with sovereignty.

Yeah, the British Virgin Island would immediately part with soverignity, I wonder what the UK thinks of this, I remember something about Falklands..
Zimbabwe? The country that turned a blind eye on white farmers getting killed and robbed just because they had more money and they were white? Imagine putting a town full of rich white guys next to this one, what will be the outcome?
Liberland, just lol!

Even if by some chance that territory becomes accessible, would anyone want to find himself between Croatia and Serbia if we take into account what happened in that area only 30 years ago, and it is only a matter of time before it happens again.

Was that area (Liberland) even cleared of the mines that were laid during the war?
Anyhow, really bad spot, probably only something in Kosovo or Nagorno-Karabakh is worse than this.

Given the risks and inconveniences involved in trying to live on a sea (especially outside EEZs), wouldn't it be at some point be easier to figure out a way to find a country willing to part with sovereignty over a small piece of land in a non-strategic location? Bir Tawil also looks interesting, but not sure whether it has water without having to drill too deep.

What do you think will happen once a poor country which is used to wars (like both Egypt and Sudan are) sees that the territory they've sold has become rich and attractive and is rolling in money? First, there will be harassment, with the borders, with the shipping, with the trade then more and more demands and then what are you going to do if they decide to simply invade peacefully with 1 million civilians?
No, trying to create a nation near or inside an area that was part of a dispute that ended with war is suicide.

I find the idea of creating an independent community feasible and interesting, that of a nation, not so much.
There is no place for utopian dreams of independence in this world, at least not yet.