Tax UK

[hawkeye2810]

Hello,

Has anyone withdrawn BTC in the UK? If so do you need to pay tax on it as it currently seems unclear.

[1715229083]

1715229083

[1715229083]

1715229083

[1715229083]

1715229083

[gentlemand]

The tax situation is clear. You pay capital gains on your profit. You have an exemption of £11,300 ish. If your profit is below that you pay no tax. For tax reasons it's treated the same as foreign currency.

Some people say you should also be paying capital gains tax on your crypto only gains. Sod that.

There might also be a grey area over a full time trader paying income tax as that's a job rather than a capital gain. I haven't heard many mentions of that.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/revenue-and-customs-brief-9-2014-bitcoin-and-other-cryptocurrencies/revenue-and-customs-brief-9-2014-bitcoin-and-other-cryptocurrencies

The above is their advisory which hasn't changed since 2014.

[The One]

The tax situation is clear. You pay capital gains on your profit. You have an exemption of £11,300 ish. If your profit is below that you pay no tax. For tax reasons it's treated the same as foreign currency.

Some people say you should also be paying capital gains tax on your crypto only gains. Sod that.

There might also be a grey area over a full time trader paying income tax as that's a job rather than a capital gain. I haven't heard many mentions of that.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/revenue-and-customs-brief-9-2014-bitcoin-and-other-cryptocurrencies/revenue-and-customs-brief-9-2014-bitcoin-and-other-cryptocurrencies

The above is their advisory which hasn't changed since 2014.

Trading is regarded as gambling thus no tax payable. Unless the law changed.

[gentlemand]

Trading is regarded as gambling thus no tax payable. Unless the law changed.

I can't believe that every full time stock market or forex trader, and that's the closest square equivalent to crypto trading, out there is contentedly registered as a gambler and not paying a bean, but one thing I've gleaned from the people who've gone a bit deeper into this with various accountants is that no one appears to have a bleedin' clue.

Spread betting and binary trading I can believe. I don't buy it otherwise.

[btcwish1]

Yes this is another bizarre rule.  a gambler can earn millions and pay zero tax, where as any regular hand to mouth person earning over £11k/year will need to pay tax... 

[The One]

Trading is regarded as gambling thus no tax payable. Unless the law changed.

I can't believe that every full time stock market or forex trader, and that's the closest square equivalent to crypto trading, out there is contentedly registered as a gambler and not paying a bean, but one thing I've gleaned from the people who've gone a bit deeper into this with various accountants is that no one appears to have a bleedin' clue.

Spread betting and binary trading I can believe. I don't buy it otherwise.

They are classified as gambling and trading with btc is no different. Stockmarket  and/or forex trader are companies, not individuals. Remember with CGT one can offset losses against their gains. Gambling has no tax because gambling losses are not, obviously, offset against wins.

[The One]

Yes this is another bizarre rule.  a gambler can earn millions and pay zero tax, where as any regular hand to mouth person earning over £11k/year will need to pay tax... 

How many gamblers can "earn" millions? None. Gamblers do not "earn".

Gamblers can win money and pay tax when they spend it. Everybody pays the same tax rate when then spend money as a consumer. A person earning £1000 pa still pays the same tax as someone earning £1m.

[gentlemand]

They are classified as gambling and trading with btc is no different. Stockmarket  and/or forex trader are companies, not individuals. Remember with CGT one can offset losses against their gains. Gambling has no tax because gambling losses are not, obviously, offset against wins.

There are plenty of individuals who are professional full time traders.

The problem with all of this is that it's too open to interpretation. I kind of get the impression that Bitcoiners are obligated to prepare and present a certain angle to the HMRC and hope that they swallow it. It seems unnecessarily opaque.

This article backs you up but again it's their opinion rather than anything definitive - https://www.butler-co.co.uk/articles/BitcoinTrading.pdf

[hawkeye2810]

Surely trading is gambling. If I buy £1000 of a crypto currency or an ICO, who's to say that market won't drop or that ICO will run away?

It's not gauranteed money so therefore it's gambling? That's what I mean by it's not clear.

From my point of view buying into a crypto currency is no different to buying a scratch card or playing poker, there is always a good chance of loss.

[uslfd]

If I do not cash out my bitcoin or liquidate my position, hence I do not have to worry about capital gain tax at all I believe.

Correct me if I am wrong.

[Alns]

I have some friends from the high school who are living on the UK now and they are holding some bitcoins at the moment, everytime that they want to dump their coins they just use localbitcoins and sell all of their coins for cash in there.
You dont have to pass through a bank, it is very easy to sell your bitcoins through local bitcoins, because you can choose the best option that you want to sell them by.
That country is very strict, like the USA, but those who doesnt want to have problems with the law, just sell their bitcoins for fiat money

[btcwish1]

Yes this is another bizarre rule.  a gambler can earn millions and pay zero tax, where as any regular hand to mouth person earning over £11k/year will need to pay tax... 

How many gamblers can "earn" millions? None. Gamblers do not "earn".

Gamblers can win money and pay tax when they spend it. Everybody pays the same tax rate when then spend money as a consumer. A person earning £1000 pa still pays the same tax as someone earning £1m.

You are talking about VAT.  I am talking about income tax. "A person earning £1000 pa still pays the same tax as someone earning £1m."--> NOT true for income tax

[The One]

They are classified as gambling and trading with btc is no different. Stockmarket  and/or forex trader are companies, not individuals. Remember with CGT one can offset losses against their gains. Gambling has no tax because gambling losses are not, obviously, offset against wins.

There are plenty of individuals who are professional full time traders.

The problem with all of this is that it's too open to interpretation. I kind of get the impression that Bitcoiners are obligated to prepare and present a certain angle to the HMRC and hope that they swallow it. It seems unnecessarily opaque.

This article backs you up but again it's their opinion rather than anything definitive - https://www.butler-co.co.uk/articles/BitcoinTrading.pdf

The key word is "trading." If one convert £ to $ in order to go on holiday, that is not trading, thus no tax. Converting BTC to £ is the same. When you do it regularly in order to make profit via trading then it becomes another issue (gambling). Holding for long term has CGT as they think bitcoin is an investment. I see it as a currency and just because the currency values goes up (deflationary) as opposed to fiat value going down (inflationary), tax cannot apply. If fiat £ were deflationary at 5% pa for 10 years, do you think the government will tax the increased value of £? NO. The best thing to do is carry on as normal and forget the taxman.

[gentlemand]

The key word is "trading." If one convert £ to $ in order to go on holiday, that is not trading, thus no tax. Converting BTC to £ is the same. When you do it regularly in order to make profit via trading then it becomes another issue (gambling). Holding for long term has CGT as they think bitcoin is an investment. I see it as a currency and just because the currency values goes up (deflationary) as opposed to fiat value going down (inflationary), tax cannot apply. If fiat £ were deflationary at 5% pa for 10 years, do you think the government will tax the increased value of £? NO. The best thing to do is carry on as normal and forget the taxman.

It doesn't really matter what us peons think. What matters is what They think. If a million quid of Bitcoin gains arrived in my bank account tomorrow I'm going to have to account for it and CGT it will likely be regardless of my own feelings.

[bitcoinmaniac52]

The tax situation is clear. You pay capital gains on your profit. You have an exemption of £11,300 ish. If your profit is below that you pay no tax. For tax reasons it's treated the same as foreign currency.

Some people say you should also be paying capital gains tax on your crypto only gains. Sod that.

There might also be a grey area over a full time trader paying income tax as that's a job rather than a capital gain. I haven't heard many mentions of that.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/revenue-and-customs-brief-9-2014-bitcoin-and-other-cryptocurrencies/revenue-and-customs-brief-9-2014-bitcoin-and-other-cryptocurrencies

The above is their advisory which hasn't changed since 2014.

The problem with taxes is doesn't the government need to be able to prove that you indeed made such a profit in the first place in order to be able to collect tax? I mean if you didn't pay it then they would first need to audit you and secondly they would need to then determine you indeed are lying somehow and then if you hide your activity correctly you should not be able to get caught in which case taxes would be unnecessary. Is it a good thing to o though? Well, this post is for educational purposes only...

[gentlemand]

The problem with taxes is doesn't the government need to be able to prove that you indeed made such a profit in the first place in order to be able to collect tax? I mean if you didn't pay it then they would first need to audit you and secondly they would need to then determine you indeed are lying somehow and then if you hide your activity correctly you should not be able to get caught in which case taxes would be unnecessary. Is it a good thing to o though? Well, this post is for educational purposes only...

There's a million ways you can not pay tax. Everyone knows it's possible. Most people choose to pay it for the sake of a quiet life just in case. That's how it works.

I've known a couple of people who were not believed by the tax man even though they'd done nothing actually wrong. Their lives were comprehensively ruined. In that scenario I'd just bugger off abroad and not come back. Most don't have that option.

[The One]

Yes this is another bizarre rule.  a gambler can earn millions and pay zero tax, where as any regular hand to mouth person earning over £11k/year will need to pay tax... 

How many gamblers can "earn" millions? None. Gamblers do not "earn".

Gamblers can win money and pay tax when they spend it. Everybody pays the same tax rate when then spend money as a consumer. A person earning £1000 pa still pays the same tax as someone earning £1m.

You are talking about VAT.  I am talking about income tax. "A person earning £1000 pa still pays the same tax as someone earning £1m."--> NOT true for income tax

You obviously do not understand how tax works, just like the other billions of derps on the planet. Income tax and national insurance are deducted from your wage/salary, not pay. Deduct and pay are two different words with its own definition. You can only pay each tax once. All taxes imposed on companies are added to the cost of goods and services. Learn accountancy, expenditure column. Suppose i sold you a book for £10. Costs or productions, operation, sales and profit = £4 per book. Total of income tax, national insurance, business rate, corporation tax, VAT, stupid regulations (stealth tax) and any other minor taxes = £6 per book. £4 + £6 = £10. Consumer marginal rate of tax is 60% payable by everyone regardless of earning. The same 60% - no progressive tax (myth).

Politicians and the financial elites DO NOT WANTS BILLIONS OF DERPS TO KNOW THIS. Learn and stop being brainwashed by the politicians and the media.

[The One]

The key word is "trading." If one convert £ to $ in order to go on holiday, that is not trading, thus no tax. Converting BTC to £ is the same. When you do it regularly in order to make profit via trading then it becomes another issue (gambling). Holding for long term has CGT as they think bitcoin is an investment. I see it as a currency and just because the currency values goes up (deflationary) as opposed to fiat value going down (inflationary), tax cannot apply. If fiat £ were deflationary at 5% pa for 10 years, do you think the government will tax the increased value of £? NO. The best thing to do is carry on as normal and forget the taxman.

It doesn't really matter what us peons think. What matters is what They think. If a million quid of Bitcoin gains arrived in my bank account tomorrow I'm going to have to account for it and CGT it will likely be regardless of my own feelings.

Sell for cash a bit at a time. If you want to sell all in one go, move abroad.

[fiulpro]

Hey bitcoins are taxable its same for UK or India.
I would like to tell you about my personal experience.
First of all.. Being taxable doesn't affect you if tou do are buying bitcoins that aren't that valuable.
First of all its like if you are buying bitcoins and earning through it..it hardly makes a change in your usual schedule.but if your earnings exceeds 2.5 lakhs then ypu need to pay taxes.
Since whatever you earn will be shown in your bank account in a similar way.. bitcoins aren't taxable but Whatever you earn from it are. Also..all other.. taxes are hidden in the sense you won't know they will exist but when you will sell ypur bitcoins its rate will be lower than the buy rate..there are 2 possible reasons for that...1.comission taken by the offline wallet through which you choosed to sell
2. Some minor taxes according to your amount.
I think you will get a fair idea of how bitcoins and taxes work.. its.more like its your earnings that are taxable.

[roddy5]

Hello,

Has anyone withdrawn BTC in the UK? If so do you need to pay tax on it as it currently seems unclear.

I think taxation rules are the same with any other countries and same for other earnings that you are getting. once you earn something no matter what the source it you need to put it on your tax forms and pay applicable taxes for it. I am just not sure on how to compute your capital for that earnings.