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Author Topic: I think I figured it out (a post only for liberty minded peaceful people)  (Read 1685 times)
vokain
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July 02, 2013, 03:30:51 AM
 #21

Found a nice article on that

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/sovietcollapse.htm

Except for the Reagan part, where they claim Soviets increased their budget in response to Reagan. Historical data sows otherwise:

http://one-salient-oversight.blogspot.com/2012/09/let-end-this-nonsense-reagan-military.html

So it seems just propaganda against some existential enemy (terrorists!) is enough.

One problem: USSR was actually really socialist and communist, not like America is "socialist" and "communist." Also, they were pegging their rubble to the British pound for whatever reason, meaning once the peg couldn't hold any more, it *SNAPPED* like pegs always to. So maybe it will take a while here. Unless that theory about Bicoin becoming a financial black hole proves true, where as soon as Bitcoin and USD come close to being 50/50 used, Bitcoin will suck in all remaining USD wealth as people abandon USD enmasse, self-perpetuating it by causing BTC to rise and USD to fall drastically in the process.

And then, you win
"I'm sure that in 20 years there will either be very large transaction volume or no volume." -- Satoshi
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luv2drnkbr
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July 02, 2013, 01:47:32 PM
 #22

Violence will always be the final authority.  If a person has to give up X amount of money/power/whatever, or their life, they generally choose their life, thinking they'll be able to get money/power/whatever back as long as they are still at least friggin alive.

That being the case, game theory suggests that in any situation, you can have all the peace, negotiation, friendship and whatever else you want, but in the end, it's quite simple:  If I disagree and I'm stronger, I can just take what I want.  And what can you do to stop me?

Violence is always the baseline.  It may indeed be as Asimov called it "the last resort of the incompetent" but it is still a viable option.  And because using violence to simply take what I want is usually cheaper than cooperating, most peaceful relationships between countries are shaky at best and rely solely on trade negotiations with the full knowledge that war breaks out if economic trade isn't mutually beneficial.  Any and all non-violent societal interactions must necessarily still have the game theoretical threat of violence.

Violence is simply the baseline.

hazek (OP)
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July 02, 2013, 02:17:03 PM
 #23

Violence is simply the baseline.

But that's beside the point. Even if violence is the baseline we clearly have the capability to cooperate and we clearly have people who prefer to cooperate. And given our technological advancement where muscles do not matter in oh so many cases anymore, couldn't we change the game in order for the game theory to yield a different most profitable action?

I mean isn't this what Bitcoin is?

There are so many players that have the ability to be violent thugs and perform a 51% attack however the system has an incentive built in where it makes much more sense to go along with everyone else and cooperate rather than destroy.

If my main premise is right, and we have the amount of violence because violence is profitable, surely if violence ceased to be profitable or if being non violent becomes order of magnitude more profitable we would have a lot less violence if any at all..

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
Vandroiy
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July 02, 2013, 03:27:33 PM
Last edit: July 02, 2013, 03:38:32 PM by Vandroiy
 #24

hazek, your premise is correct. Let's skip the possible arguing about it for this post and just label it correct. The follow-up question is:

  • Can we redesign the rules of society in a direction in which market forces favor peaceful, cooperative, productive interaction?

The answer is again yes and for all we know it would be a massive improvement. But a redesign must actually be executed to change anything. Obviously a change in society needs significant support, not just a few theorists talking about it. Unless you count running away to some island to start one's own mini civilization, this leads to another question:

  • Can we persuade typical humans to favor an idea even if it is beyond their own comprehension?

Nope.

Seriously, can we? I can't. Remember you're up against politicians, skilled in persuasion, who can say and even do arbitrary nonsense just to win support.



Knowing you, I guess you'd end up at the same point anyway. Save yourself the hassle and try to focus on the last question. Even if this view were wrong, you can expect that someone knows how to do things better than our mad governments. The problem is that such people cannot persuade others, even of a vastly superior plan, as hardly anyone understands even the basics of markets.

Whoever it is, the people with the best model are probably aware of incredible possible gains. They can model why others reject it, and given time and attention they would be able to disprove opposing arguments. Useless. The audiences' attention spans would run out, then they'd be labeled arrogant for never giving in on their points.

Sorry, you figured out the right thing but nobody knows how to change the world from there. Sad

Unless of course someone finds a non-evasive way to answer the last question with "yes". That would be epic in every sense of the word Tongue
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July 02, 2013, 03:50:04 PM
 #25

We live in an anarchist world of survival of the fittest.

It just so happens that the fittest is a collective of power that have set up rules of their liking and use their power against those who do not follow their rules. Otherwise known as government.

I do not know how you can change that without another group having more power and their own set of rules take over. Which would be much the same.

First seastead company actually selling sea homes: Ocean Builders https://ocean.builders  Of course we accept bitcoin.
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July 02, 2013, 04:12:58 PM
 #26

How can we make it unprofitable to be a violent thug? That is the question that the correct answer to will solve all of our problems.

Consider the burglar who steals items from people's houses.

We can make it unprofitable to be a burglar by improving the security of our houses. To put the burglars out of business doesn't require that everyone burgler-proofs their houses; it just requires that enough people burgler-proof their houses that it becomes uneconomic to be a burglar.

It becomes unprofitable to burgle the burglar-proofed houses -- the rest are fine.  Burglars aren't violent anyway -- otherwise they'd be *robbers* Cheesy

Quote
Alternatively, we can make it unprofitable to be a burglar by making it relatively more profitable for the burglar to do something else. A government that creates high levels of unemployment will make it relatively more profitable for burglars than than a government that allows full employment.

So already there's more than one way towards a solution.

It's the same with the violent thugs. There are many paths towards a solution, including these:

1. Remove the profit. The agorist movement aims to do this by moving all economic transactions down to the grassroots where they are unseen by the violent thugs, and therefore out of reach.

After the economic transactions are completed, i assume there's still "stuff" left -- things like laptops & ipads.  Those are the things commonly stolen & sold at the grassroot level.

Quote
2. Make it more profitable for the violent thugs to cease their thuggery. For example, a small country might find profit in selling "freedom passports" that would allow people to live without institutionalised thuggery in part of that country. A carribean island selling freedom passports would do very well financially, I think.

Caribbean islands fare much better by stamping tourist passports & making sure they don't stick around too long.  Without implicit thuggery enterprising thugs would come & thug up the place.

Quote
3. Remove the violent thugs from positions of violence. I'm a pacifist, so this path is not for me. But others will do it anyway, as we have seen recently in several Middle East countries. Of course, they have replaced the removed violent thugs by other violent thugs, but perhaps there's a way to "piggyback" on the removals perpetrated by others, whilst avoiding the new thugs. I haven't thought this one through fully, but it's likely in the future that the young generation will rebel against the debts incurred in their name by the current thugs.

Thugs can only be removed by thuggier thugs.  And so on and so on and so on.

Quote
4. Remove oneself from the violence. Seasteading is the obvious path forwards here. Maybe seasteads will be attacked by the violent thugs, but somehow I doubt it. Most violent thugs are too busy with their own "citizens".

Even Sealand, arguably the least desirable property in the world, was attacked & recaptured only by out-thugging the thugs.  And then there's ... Somalia!
 
Quote
5. Protect oneself from the violent thugs. Structure ones life to minimise the problems that the thugs can cause. Fly beneath the radar.

You're not suggesting that entire communities *hide,* are you?
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July 02, 2013, 05:59:49 PM
 #27

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5. Protect oneself from the violent thugs. Structure ones life to minimise the problems that the thugs can cause. Fly beneath the radar.
You're not suggesting that entire communities *hide,* are you?

When you find that entire communities want to become free and self-sufficient, that would mean "we" almost won. Right now, very few people are able to figure out they can do something with their lives, instead of demanding things from the thugs.
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July 02, 2013, 07:30:09 PM
 #28

  • Can we redesign the rules of society in a direction in which market forces favor peaceful, cooperative, productive interaction?

  • Can we persuade typical humans to favor an idea even if it is beyond their own comprehension?

Nope.

Seriously, can we? I can't. Remember you're up against politicians, skilled in persuasion, who can say and even do arbitrary nonsense just to win support.

Unless of course someone finds a non-evasive way to answer the last question with "yes". That would be epic in every sense of the word Tongue

We have designed a Peer-to-Peer file sharing mechanism to make copyright thuggery impotent and irrelevant.
We have designed 3D printing to make restrictions against owning certain items impotent and irrelevant.
We have designed Bitcoin to make financial regulations and restrictions impotent and irrelevant.

Now we just have to design an application or a piece of technology to make the monopoly on law and governance impotent and irrelevant. I have ideas as to how. I just don't have the means yet.
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July 03, 2013, 10:18:47 AM
 #29

Violence will always be the final authority.  If a person has to give up X amount of money/power/whatever, or their life, they generally choose their life, thinking they'll be able to get money/power/whatever back as long as they are still at least friggin alive.

That being the case, game theory suggests that in any situation, you can have all the peace, negotiation, friendship and whatever else you want, but in the end, it's quite simple:  If I disagree and I'm stronger, I can just take what I want.  And what can you do to stop me?

Violence is always the baseline.  It may indeed be as Asimov called it "the last resort of the incompetent" but it is still a viable option.  And because using violence to simply take what I want is usually cheaper than cooperating, most peaceful relationships between countries are shaky at best and rely solely on trade negotiations with the full knowledge that war breaks out if economic trade isn't mutually beneficial.  Any and all non-violent societal interactions must necessarily still have the game theoretical threat of violence.

Violence is simply the baseline.

I think there's a lot of truth to this. I'd like to point out something which a lot of people seem to be missing about this. If we assume, that violence can not be erased from human behavior (a fair assumption even if it ignores the potential for human evolution) what are the options to deal with this? The preferred solution today seems to be "set up a structure with legal monopoly on force and hope it will stay fair and benevolent in exercising its powers". There is a fairly obvious flaw with this: if we assume that violence is here to stay how does giving license to a group of people to be the only ones to use violence legitimately (and providing them with significant means to do so) improve the situation? We can reasonably expect, that violent people will gravitate towards this institution and the institution will provide them with further incentives to act violently.

The way to go in my opinion is decentralization of power, meaning decentralization of violence. With no one individual or group gaining overwhelming power it becomes more difficult to perpetrate acts of violence profitably. Just remember the biggest acts of violence in history have been perpetrated by highly organized institutions like the church and the government. A local mob or individual thugs are peanuts compared to this.

So to sort of answer OPs question: one part of the solution could lie in removing the incentive to commit violence. Not sure how to go about this, though there have been some good suggestions in this thread. The other part of the solution might lie in removing the ability to commit violence. This can be done by not having any one group of people claim overwhelming power over others. In other words: anarchy.

It's all bullshit. But bullshit makes the flowers grow and that's beautiful.
hazek (OP)
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July 03, 2013, 02:55:14 PM
 #30

As a liberty-minded, peace-loving kind of person, I thought I might add my 2 cents...

...blah blah blah... market forces.

How can we make it unprofitable to be a violent thug? That is the question that the correct answer to will solve all of our problems.


Hmm... It's a tricky one. Eureka! Perhaps people could somehow "compete" against violence-backed institutions by providing their own, non-violent alternatives? And if the non-violent alternatives operate more efficiently, that'll encourage the 'violent' guys to upgrade or downsize. I've heard of cases where public swimming pools are shut down due to a private operator moving into the town and doing the same thing but more cheaply.


You can compete with someone who gets paid for their service regardless if people want it or not.

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
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July 03, 2013, 03:35:29 PM
 #31

[...]We have designed a Peer-to-Peer file sharing mechanism to make copyright thuggery impotent and irrelevant.

Gotta love the neocon mindset:  What's mine is mine, and what's yours?  Well, that's mine too.
My moneyz is my moneyz, keep yer hands offa' it!  COPYrights?  Intellectual propertyz stifle progress, and you're a thug if ya don't wanna *share* it!  Gimme! Cheesy
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July 03, 2013, 06:16:57 PM
 #32

Are you not paying attention?  I'm for sharing, remember?  You're the one who wants to hoard all the moneyz, and let the poor eat crack! Cheesy

Are you, now?

Yes, but it's getting pretty tedious.  OK, i'll spell it out:

1. You claim that taxes are theft, and see the tax collectors as thieves, thugs and bullies -- they take away your moneyz that you don't wanna share.
2. At the same time, you feel entitled to steal other people's intellectual property, which they don't want to share.
3. ? ? ?
4. PROFIT!!

I'd again like to remind you that the first thing to do when you find yourself in a hole is stop digging.
okbi.

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