Is Butterfly Labs breaking the law?

[Viceroy]

Yes, American Federal Law    29 (51.8%)
Yes, Kansas State Law    2 (3.6%)
No    8 (14.3%)
I don't know    12 (21.4%)
Nobody Knows    3 (5.4%)
Yes, European Law    2 (3.6%)


(European law was added after the poll began)

[LAMarcellus]

I asked for and received a refund on one device June 26, 2013.

[canth]

I asked for a refund on June 27th and just received email confirmation from BFL that they were processing the refund today. I haven't seen it hit PayPal, but I presume that will happen over the course of the next few days. Once that happens, I'll cancel my CC chargebacks.

While I've seen others get less than stellar customer service, other than a bit of a delay in the response, I personally haven't had any problems.

[goxed]

I asked for a refund on June 27th and just received email confirmation from BFL that they were processing the refund today. I haven't seen it hit PayPal, but I presume that will happen over the course of the next few days. Once that happens, I'll cancel my CC chargebacks.

While I've seen others get less than stellar customer service, other than a bit of a delay in the response, I personally haven't had any problems.

What's your approximate order date?

Thanks

[canth]

I asked for a refund on June 27th and just received email confirmation from BFL that they were processing the refund today. I haven't seen it hit PayPal, but I presume that will happen over the course of the next few days. Once that happens, I'll cancel my CC chargebacks.

While I've seen others get less than stellar customer service, other than a bit of a delay in the response, I personally haven't had any problems.

What's your approximate order date?

Thanks

1 25Ghz from early april 2013, 2x 5ghz from late april 2013. If they could give me a shipping date, I would probably have kept my order.

[goxed]

Thanks for the info. noted.

[worldtreasurefinders]

IMHO, if BFL tells you that a condition of your order is that all sales are final and no refunds will be given, and you agree to those terms and purchase anyway, then you shouldn't cry to the FTC and ask mommy to make the bad man give you your money back.

[Viceroy]

You are welcome to an opinion.  Mine is that BFL has been scamming people for a year and today has only delivered 1% of the hardware they promised to deliver nine months ago in November of 2012.  

My fear is that people who do not know any better, and perhaps even see BFL ads in these forums, purchase their hardware assuming it to be legitimate (they have a very slick website) later finding out that they have been scammed by con men (read: Sonny).  It is clear that people responding to my poll agree in overwhelming numbers.  

Is Butterfly Labs breaking the law?

Yes, American Federal Law   - 33 (50.8%)
Yes, Kansas State Law   - 2 (3.1%)
No   - 10 (15.4%)
I don't know   - 14 (21.5%)
Nobody Knows   - 4 (6.2%)
Yes, European Law   - 2 (3.1%)

Total Voters: 65



My advice to anyone who has been scammed by them to contact one or more government agencies immediately.  If they are not scammers they will be fine when the FTC shows up at the door.  So given the two possibilities:

1) they are a scam and the regulators have not yet discovered the scam.
2) they are not a scam.

If I were a customer of theirs and they refused a refund as they apparently have, I would call anybody who would listen.  

Stealing ~$1000 from 99% of 30,000 people is a serious crime.  


Any victims of the BFL scam should read the top two posts on this page: 
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=250985.60


 

[cryptoanarchist]

If "the law" is following the orders of nutjobs in blue uniforms that are funded by extorting homeowners, then, as a homeowner, I would be willing to fund some guys to dress up and put the BFL guys in handcuffs and beat them while saying
"stop resisting", and then throw them in a cage.

Scummy fuckers. Don't sell shit you don't have.

[Bitcoinpro]

 

[BitTrade]

IMHO, if BFL tells you that a condition of your order is that all sales are final and no refunds will be given, and you agree to those terms and purchase anyway, then you shouldn't cry to the FTC and ask mommy to make the bad man give you your money back.

Wrong.  Wrong.  Wrong.

I have no stake in this, however I am fairly certain that the "all sales are final" disclaimer is not sufficient here.

The legal definition of a "sale" implies a transfer of goods has taken place.  As long as the seller has not preformed on their end of the sale, it could likely be argued (successfully) that no sale was made, and therefore the "all sales are final" disclaimer is not enforceable.  And because a sale has not been made, the seller is in breach of the contract until the unit ships, and the buyer would have the right to receive their money back.

Further, because the units shipping are different from the description of the units ordered, this is also a breach of contract by the seller, because a valid "sale" would imply the buyer receiving the item as described.

This is a class-action suit waiting to happen.

[Viceroy]

Back on page one we talk about the FTC and how someone can make a claim with them because refusing a refund is criminal.

[Bitcoinpro]

just becaue you agree to terms of purchase dosnt mean it complies with fair trading laws

[AliceWonder]

IMHO, if BFL tells you that a condition of your order is that all sales are final and no refunds will be given, and you agree to those terms and purchase anyway, then you shouldn't cry to the FTC and ask mommy to make the bad man give you your money back.

If the contract is not legal then it is not a contract and the fact that you agreed is meaningless.

They have to either ship the product in a reasonable time period or refund the customers.

Otherwise it is fraud, regardless of what the customer agreed to.

[Trongersoll]

IMHO, if BFL tells you that a condition of your order is that all sales are final and no refunds will be given, and you agree to those terms and purchase anyway, then you shouldn't cry to the FTC and ask mommy to make the bad man give you your money back.

And if they change their "policy" after you have paid your money? I'm glad that you are so perfect that you have never been victumized. Some day your time will come and you will get to cry too.

[dudeofthestick]

A contract is not legal if the will of one of the parts is not to carry out her compromise. Then is a fraud.

I guess they are using the fiat to run the business till they run out of cash. Then they file for bankruptcy, but keeping the bitcoins.

Time will tell.

[davidj411]

A contract is not legal if the will of one of the parts is not to carry out her compromise. Then is a fraud.

I guess they are using the fiat to run the business till they run out of cash. Then they file for bankruptcy, but keeping the bitcoins.

Time will tell.

Also this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consideration

[worldtreasurefinders]

After reading and reflecting more on it, I changed my position and agree with the rest of you.  Reasonable standard of care is an expectation, and if they are not providing that, then yes, they should offer timely refunds and comply with the law.

[btcdrak]

It's about time someone made a formal complaint to the BBB, the FTC and the FBI.

[millsdmb]

Needs to be an option "Yes, every freaking law"