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[afbitcoins]

My first instincts on hearing about this ETF are that its a bad idea.

 because the idea behind bitcoins is that you don't need derivatives to represent bitcoins, you just own the 'real' bitcoins. Why let someone else ever hold your bitcoins when you can do it your self. This is also why I don't like Ripple gateways and bitcoin transactions in the ripple network and why you don't need a bank.

If we want to attract more people into bitcoins we need easier ways to get actual bitcoins, not paper certificates.

People supporting the ETF seem to be mainly saying it will be great for bitcoins because it'll attract big money. Maybe bitcoins shouldn't be in too much hurry to attract big money. No need for impatience. I distrust ETFs because of things I've heard about GLD and SLV. In the small print of those ETFs it says something along the lines of 'we don't have to redeem any metal and can pay you in fiat'. I've heard people with shares in GLD own 100 times more paper than there is real metal. Net effect of these ETFs is that the money supposedly going to investing in gold is actually being diluted 100 times into paper.

If the WinkleBros can proove they have the bitcoins backing the ETF then it makes it better I guess, but I'm still a bit uneasy about the idea myself.

[dogie]

isn't anyone starting thinking that the Winklevoss brothers have a natural talent for getting the business "almost" right and yet never really make it?

NB: no trolling intended, just a joke. I am holding a big bag of coins like many here (and nope I am not selling).

But at least they seem to have an idea what will succeed or not?  They had some insight to think that Facebook would work.

So I guess I am pulling for them on this one for sure! 

No they didn't. It was never their idea, they never touched it nor did anything with it. They waiting until it was a multi billon $ company then qq'ed.

[afbitcoins]

Interesting article, unusual risks of investing in the Winklevoss bitcoin ETF

http://qz.com/99632/winklevoss-bitcoin-etf-risk-factors/

[Peter Lambert]

My first instincts on hearing about this ETF are that its a bad idea.

 because the idea behind bitcoins is that you don't need derivatives to represent bitcoins, you just own the 'real' bitcoins. Why let someone else ever hold your bitcoins when you can do it your self. This is also why I don't like Ripple gateways and bitcoin transactions in the ripple network and why you don't need a bank.

If we want to attract more people into bitcoins we need easier ways to get actual bitcoins, not paper certificates.

People supporting the ETF seem to be mainly saying it will be great for bitcoins because it'll attract big money. Maybe bitcoins shouldn't be in too much hurry to attract big money. No need for impatience. I distrust ETFs because of things I've heard about GLD and SLV. In the small print of those ETFs it says something along the lines of 'we don't have to redeem any metal and can pay you in fiat'. I've heard people with shares in GLD own 100 times more paper than there is real metal. Net effect of these ETFs is that the money supposedly going to investing in gold is actually being diluted 100 times into paper.

If the WinkleBros can proove they have the bitcoins backing the ETF then it makes it better I guess, but I'm still a bit uneasy about the idea myself.

Not everything has to be done because it will be "better". This is a free country, bitcoins were designed in part to allow more freedom in money, if these people want to use bitcoins in this manner it will not hurt you so why not let them try to make a little money this way? Or are you just jealous you didn't think of it and/or have the resources to pull it off first?

[humanitee]

My first instincts on hearing about this ETF are that its a bad idea.

 because the idea behind bitcoins is that you don't need derivatives to represent bitcoins, you just own the 'real' bitcoins. Why let someone else ever hold your bitcoins when you can do it your self. This is also why I don't like Ripple gateways and bitcoin transactions in the ripple network and why you don't need a bank.

If we want to attract more people into bitcoins we need easier ways to get actual bitcoins, not paper certificates.

People supporting the ETF seem to be mainly saying it will be great for bitcoins because it'll attract big money. Maybe bitcoins shouldn't be in too much hurry to attract big money. No need for impatience. I distrust ETFs because of things I've heard about GLD and SLV. In the small print of those ETFs it says something along the lines of 'we don't have to redeem any metal and can pay you in fiat'. I've heard people with shares in GLD own 100 times more paper than there is real metal. Net effect of these ETFs is that the money supposedly going to investing in gold is actually being diluted 100 times into paper.

If the WinkleBros can proove they have the bitcoins backing the ETF then it makes it better I guess, but I'm still a bit uneasy about the idea myself.

All your worries are debunked in about a 2 minute study of the Blockchain.

This could be a great service for people who are technically illiterate but want to hold Bitcoin.

[bobdude17]

In case anyone missed this post:

A bitcoin ETF is huge.

(note: they are not the only ones working on one...)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=251133.msg2673918#msg2673918

[cryptoanarchist]

In case anyone missed this post:

A bitcoin ETF is huge.

(note: they are not the only ones working on one...)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=251133.msg2673918#msg2673918

Dumb dumb dumb, dumb dumb dumb...dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb

bitcoin ETF is about as dumb as it gets. Figures Garzik would be into it. I can't wait to meet him in person. I want to find out if he's a shill, or just an idiot.

[cryptoanarchist]

The ETF haters in this thread are hilarious. Step outside once in a while. Your worldview has become far too narrow.

P.S. No one is forcing you to buy shares, and those capable of securing their own coins will of course prefer to do so (unless its retirement funds they are investing )

No, if anything, the people who think an ETF is a good idea are hilarious. Or, they would be if they weren't so stupid. Why do you need a couple of carnival-head-sized spoiled Winklebrats to buy bitcoins for you? why do you trust them more with your money than you trust yourself? Because they're in the news?   Why would you completely nullify the entire reason of having bitcoins by buying them through an ETF?

Strictly put: You're 'tarded.

[wachtwoord]

I'm not buying the ETF but calling others retarded while being completely wrong yourself is kinda embarrising.

[cryptoanarchist]

I'm not buying the ETF but calling others retarded while being completely wrong yourself is kinda embarrising.

It would be if I was, but I'm not. Not knowing how to spell embarrassing when the forum has a spell check is pretty shameful though - nitwit.

[ProfMac]

The ETF haters in this thread are hilarious. Step outside once in a while. Your worldview has become far too narrow.

P.S. No one is forcing you to buy shares, and those capable of securing their own coins will of course prefer to do so (unless its retirement funds they are investing )

No, if anything, the people who think an ETF is a good idea are hilarious. Or, they would be if they weren't so stupid. Why do you need a couple of carnival-head-sized spoiled Winklebrats to buy bitcoins for you? why do you trust them more with your money than you trust yourself? Because they're in the news?   Why would you completely nullify the entire reason of having bitcoins by buying them through an ETF?

Strictly put: You're 'tarded.

If you have $250,000 in your IRA / 401(k) and you can't access it as cash, the ETF is great news because you can invest your wealth into bitcoins.

[cryptoanarchist]

The ETF haters in this thread are hilarious. Step outside once in a while. Your worldview has become far too narrow.

P.S. No one is forcing you to buy shares, and those capable of securing their own coins will of course prefer to do so (unless its retirement funds they are investing )

No, if anything, the people who think an ETF is a good idea are hilarious. Or, they would be if they weren't so stupid. Why do you need a couple of carnival-head-sized spoiled Winklebrats to buy bitcoins for you? why do you trust them more with your money than you trust yourself? Because they're in the news?   Why would you completely nullify the entire reason of having bitcoins by buying them through an ETF?

Strictly put: You're 'tarded.

If you have $250,000 in your IRA / 401(k) and you can't access it as cash, the ETF is great news because you can invest your wealth into bitcoins.

If you have $250,000 that you can't access as cash, you need to address that problem first, before trusting an unknown entity with it.

Fools will soon be parted from their money, just like the morons who put their money into that fiasco (I called that one too).

[afbitcoins]

My first instincts on hearing about this ETF are that its a bad idea.

 because the idea behind bitcoins is that you don't need derivatives to represent bitcoins, you just own the 'real' bitcoins. Why let someone else ever hold your bitcoins when you can do it your self. This is also why I don't like Ripple gateways and bitcoin transactions in the ripple network and why you don't need a bank.

If we want to attract more people into bitcoins we need easier ways to get actual bitcoins, not paper certificates.

People supporting the ETF seem to be mainly saying it will be great for bitcoins because it'll attract big money. Maybe bitcoins shouldn't be in too much hurry to attract big money. No need for impatience. I distrust ETFs because of things I've heard about GLD and SLV. In the small print of those ETFs it says something along the lines of 'we don't have to redeem any metal and can pay you in fiat'. I've heard people with shares in GLD own 100 times more paper than there is real metal. Net effect of these ETFs is that the money supposedly going to investing in gold is actually being diluted 100 times into paper.

If the WinkleBros can proove they have the bitcoins backing the ETF then it makes it better I guess, but I'm still a bit uneasy about the idea myself.

Not everything has to be done because it will be "better". This is a free country, bitcoins were designed in part to allow more freedom in money, if these people want to use bitcoins in this manner it will not hurt you so why not let them try to make a little money this way? Or are you just jealous you didn't think of it and/or have the resources to pull it off first?

*edit

Peter, no I'm not jealous of thinking of an idea I would have been against in the first place, its a bit ridiculous of you to suggest that.  The freedom of bitcoins comes because the quantity can't be controlled by any person or organisation, leaving bitcoins free to find fair market value. Unless the Winklebros ETF can demonstrate it backs every share of its ETF with real bitcoins then I won't trust it because it will be a way to tamper with the number of bitcoins and hence tamper with the value of bitcoins. If real bitcoins I hold in my own wallet are devalued because the quantity of apparent bitcoins has been 'inflated' then it does hurt me, it devalues my bitcoins.

[digitalindustry]

The ETF haters in this thread are hilarious. Step outside once in a while. Your worldview has become far too narrow.

P.S. No one is forcing you to buy shares, and those capable of securing their own coins will of course prefer to do so (unless its retirement funds they are investing )

No, if anything, the people who think an ETF is a good idea are hilarious. Or, they would be if they weren't so stupid. Why do you need a couple of carnival-head-sized spoiled Winklebrats to buy bitcoins for you? why do you trust them more with your money than you trust yourself? Because they're in the news?   Why would you completely nullify the entire reason of having bitcoins by buying them through an ETF?

Strictly put: You're 'tarded.

If you have $250,000 in your IRA / 401(k) and you can't access it as cash, the ETF is great news because you can invest your wealth into bitcoins.

If you have $250,000 that you can't access as cash, you need to address that problem first, before trusting an unknown entity with it.

Fools will soon be parted from their money, just like the morons who put their money into that fiasco (I called that one too).

it can't be accessed as cash because its , ah a 401(k) ?

So in this sense it makes sense , and to tell you the truth , moving forward its probably a safer bet (that being your possible full loss of that 401(k) if left sit in Equities or Bonds)- although with an EFT the devil is actually in the detail.

I could totally see why , if it appeared legit - lots of IRA 401(k) would diversify to a BTC EFT , at very least the "Self managed" at the start .

[digitalindustry]

My first instincts on hearing about this ETF are that its a bad idea.

 because the idea behind bitcoins is that you don't need derivatives to represent bitcoins, you just own the 'real' bitcoins. Why let someone else ever hold your bitcoins when you can do it your self. This is also why I don't like Ripple gateways and bitcoin transactions in the ripple network and why you don't need a bank.

If we want to attract more people into bitcoins we need easier ways to get actual bitcoins, not paper certificates.

People supporting the ETF seem to be mainly saying it will be great for bitcoins because it'll attract big money. Maybe bitcoins shouldn't be in too much hurry to attract big money. No need for impatience. I distrust ETFs because of things I've heard about GLD and SLV. In the small print of those ETFs it says something along the lines of 'we don't have to redeem any metal and can pay you in fiat'. I've heard people with shares in GLD own 100 times more paper than there is real metal. Net effect of these ETFs is that the money supposedly going to investing in gold is actually being diluted 100 times into paper.

If the WinkleBros can proove they have the bitcoins backing the ETF then it makes it better I guess, but I'm still a bit uneasy about the idea myself.

Not everything has to be done because it will be "better". This is a free country, bitcoins were designed in part to allow more freedom in money, if these people want to use bitcoins in this manner it will not hurt you so why not let them try to make a little money this way? Or are you just jealous you didn't think of it and/or have the resources to pull it off first?

Peter, no I'm not jealous of thinking of an idea I would have been against in the first place, its a bit ridiculous of you to suggest that.  The freedom of bitcoins comes because the quantity can't be controlled by any person or organisation. Unless the Winklebros ETF can demonstrate it backs every share of its ETF with real bitcoins then I won't trust it because it will be a way to tamper with the number of bitcoins. If you don't understand this concept I suggest you do some research.

this all goes back to the "Peer driven market" - aspect

i'm going to bet that the Winki dink bros are betting that most people have no idea or even care about the physical backing of the assets just as with Gold or Silver -{i'm talking about a lot of those 401(k) holders}

the interesting part becomes the Technology factor , it of course all works with Gold or Silver , but will it work in a strongly Peer driven market such a Bitcoin.

or will their hand be forced to move in a direction that leads them to develop systems that prove/disprove this.

i'd say the success/failure will be a result of this aspect primarily .

[cryptoanarchist]

it can't be accessed as cash because its , ah a 401(k) ?

So in this sense it makes sense , and to tell you the truth , moving forward its probably a safer bet (that being your possible full loss of that 401(k) if left sit in Equities or Bonds)- although with an EFT the devil is actually in the detail.

I could totally see why , if it appeared legit - lots of IRA 401(k) would diversify to a BTC EFT , at very least the "Self managed" at the start .

I understand that, dickhead, I HAD a 401K - in my early 20s, when I was still financially illiterate. That's why I know they're just as stupid as having a Bitcoin ETF.

[BitcoinAshley]

Cryptoanarchist needs to change the username to Cryptosocialist.

Sure, there are people who will invest in a bitcoin ETF, and we can argue all day about their level of intelligence.

The main beef with ETFs is they allow for "counterfeit" i.e. naked shorts like in the PM market. Well, as was mentioned, a 2-minute study of the blockchain shows this would be much more challenging, virtually impossible, with Bitcoins.

Some people just feel more comfortable with traditional financial instruments. A true anarchist would recognize that they should just get what they want, and if it ends up failing, the market will do it no problem. Peanut gallery on internet forum doesn't have control of market, the market can handle itself. Who cares if RandomUser289178 thinks those people are stupid? I sure don't. I can just sit back and watch if Product X succeeds or fails, and if it fails, OK, if it succeeds, cool.

Stop whining. A financial instrument is a financial instrument. It will either succeed or fail. You calling its buyers stupid doesn't change a thing. It's just childish.

[digitalindustry]

"in my early 20s, when I was still financially illiterate."


- Changed much? , sounds like it went well for you.. , you don't have any pent up angst or anything : D

"Cryptoanarchist"



**
a Bitcoin EFT is probably a masonic conspiracy.   just throwing it out there. . .

[Peter Lambert]

Unless the Winklebros ETF can demonstrate it backs every share of its ETF with real bitcoins then I won't trust it because it will be a way to tamper with the number of bitcoins and hence tamper with the value of bitcoins. If real bitcoins I hold in my own wallet are devalued because the quantity of apparent bitcoins has been 'inflated' then it does hurt me, it artificially devalues my bitcoins.

It seems like it would be trivial for them to demonstrate they hold the bitcoins, just sign a simple statement using the various addresses which hold the bitcoins.

Nobody is forcing you to invest in this or use it in any way, bitcoin is very open and many people can use it in many different ways and we can all get along happily.

You can bitch and whine about bitcoins being devalued by inflation like this, but that is just the natural progression of the monetary system. Make your plans to deal with it and move on with your life.

[cryptoanarchist]

"in my early 20s, when I was still financially illiterate."


- Changed much? , sounds like it went well for you.. , you don't have any pent up angst or anything : D

"Cryptoanarchist"



**
a Bitcoin EFT is probably a masonic conspiracy.   just throwing it out there. . .

How did you get "pent up angst" out of my post? It's more like shock at how stupid you all are. You deserve the 'goyim' moniker because you truly are a lower life form.