THE TRUTH: Can someone withdraw fiat money from MTGOX?

[Grinder]

Liquidity is the key factor when it comes to the crunch. And how can you please estimate the liquidity of an exchange? Only the order book gives you an idea ​​how well the platform is filled with money.

Liquidity goes both ways. Mtgox is filled with money that nobody wants very much. Do you think that the people who offer to pay 5-10% more than they would have to on other exchanges and still don't get their orders filled agree that the liquidity on MtGox is good? The trade volume clearly shows that the liquidity is there on Bitstamp if you put up an order in the right price range.

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[zeroblock]

If you know anything about trading, the order book would not be the place to look at for overall liquidity of an exchange.  It would be better to look at the total volume that the exchange has on a daily basis.  The orders in the order book can be cancelled anytime.

[OhShei8e]

Liquidity goes both ways. Mtgox is filled with money that nobody wants very much. Do you think that the people who offer to pay 5-10% more than they would have to on other exchanges and still don't get their orders filled agree that the liquidity on MtGox is good? The trade volume clearly shows that the liquidity is there on Bitstamp if you put up an order in the right price range.

I'm talking about (fiat) Market liquidity not about some panic buyers who move the price a few percentage points up.

Market liquidity: "In business, economics or investment, market liquidity is an asset's ability to be sold without causing a significant movement in the price and with minimum loss of value."

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_liquidity

What happens if 50k BTC would be purchased on MtGox to sell them on Bitstamp?
Answer: It's not possible because their is not enough fiat liquidity (money) on Bitstamp.  

Although there is little trading volume at the moment on Gox so this can change every minute.  

Do you seriously think that everyone can sell his fiat in the case of a buy-panic on Gox and sell the bitcoins then on other platforms without fall back to single digits?

I'm glad that normal people not give up so easily as some people do here. I can not believe that some one charge off Gox and believe all would just continue. At least 60% of the fiat money that has been invested in the last years in Bitcoin is on Gox. If this would be gone, then good night. The last one turns off the light. A massiv loss of confidence, the Bitcoin would not recover for years if ever.

[OhShei8e]

If you know anything about trading, the order book would not be the place to look at for overall liquidity of an exchange.  It would be better to look at the total volume that the exchange has on a daily basis.  The orders in the order book can be cancelled anytime.

You're trying to tell me, that there are many millions of dollars on Bitstamp although the order book is nearly empty all the time?

Most People store their money only on Bitstamp without ever having to bid? Bitstamp is like a savings bank?

We can finish the discussion here. You are right. Bitstamps fiat money has no end. I'm sure now. Their money it's just hidden.  

[S3052]

Liquidity goes both ways. Mtgox is filled with money that nobody wants very much. Do you think that the people who offer to pay 5-10% more than they would have to on other exchanges and still don't get their orders filled agree that the liquidity on MtGox is good? The trade volume clearly shows that the liquidity is there on Bitstamp if you put up an order in the right price range.

I'm talking about (fiat) Market liquidity not about some panic buyers who move the price a few percentage points up.

Market liquidity: "In business, economics or investment, market liquidity is an asset's ability to be sold without causing a significant movement in the price and with minimum loss of value."

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_liquidity

What happens if 50k BTC would be purchased on MtGox to sell them on Bitstamp?
Answer: It's not possible because their is not enough fiat liquidity (money) on Bitstamp.  

Although there is little trading volume at the moment on Gox so this can change every minute.  

Do you seriously think that everyone can sell his fiat in the case of a buy-panic on Gox and sell the bitcoins then on other platforms without fall back to single digits?

I'm glad that normal people not give up so easily as some people do here. I can not believe that some one charge off Gox and believe all would just continue. At least 60% of the fiat money that has been invested in the last years in Bitcoin is on Gox. If this would be gone, then good night. The last one turns off the light. A massiv loss of confidence, the Bitcoin would not recover for years if ever.

what is the reason you are so biased and protective about MtGox?

[Grinder]

You're trying to tell me, that there are many millions of dollars on Bitstamp although the order book is nearly empty all the time?

Unless you're using a trading bot that can adjust the orders automatically it is not very smart to put up orders on any of the smaller exchanges that will not be filled while you are watching. It will just give other people an easy opportunity for arbitraging when there are large price movements. MtGox on the other hand is still the largest exchange, so a permanent order there is much less likely to be exploited this way.

[OhShei8e]

what is the reason you are so biased and protective about MtGox?

If I should decide to withdraw from Gox, then I withdraw entirely from bitcoin trading. On Bitstamp or other platforms I do not store permanently bigger sums in fiat. I have no Yubikey, the API is unsafe and so on. I'm a computer scientist and can not trade on platforms which sends me HTML emails and have the plaintext password in the API calls. Such things causes me physical pain.

So maybe I just buy bitcoins for my money on Gox and store them in my local and well encrypted wallet. Maybe in a few years or so they are worth something. Or I take the fiat money by selling them on Bitstamp but then I have to pay tax and must answer questions of the local tax office. So I think I take the Coins but trading is off for me without Gox.

Perhaps many people do so, and perhaps this explains the low trading volume.

Bitstamp is a funny joke. The trade engine is weak and there is nearly no trading software for Bitstamp while I have dozens ingenious projects for Gox. With what it is supposed to trade on Bitstamp? It takes a simple man in the middle attack to read the cleartext credentials from the API calls. It's impossible for me to use something like that. It's the stone age. And that should be the future? Just because they have fast withdrawals? What happens to the community?

[r.schulz]

I'm a computer scientist and can not trade on platforms which sends me HTML emails and have the plaintext password in the API calls. Such things causes me physical pain.
[]
It takes a simple man in the middle attack to read the cleartext credentials from the API calls.

How do you want to do a MitM attack with a plaintext password send over HTTPS?!? As a computer scientist you should know that it is impossible. The advantage of using HMAC over https is very minimal and depends on the details of the client and server implementation (mainly the password storage).

On the other hand, that they don't support API keys restricted to specific functions (trade/withdrawal/..) is indeed a severe limitation.

[OhShei8e]

How do you want to do a MitM attack with a plaintext password send over HTTPS?!?

HTTPS protects in theory against MitM attacks not in practice.

Many programs (especially hastily codet bots) do not care about the
validity of a certificate. They also do not care if they are redirected
to HTTP. ARP spoofing and fake DNS responses in most cases are
sufficient to overcome HTTPS.

Also there is always junk in the trust chains, see eg:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=724929

Therefore I treat HTTPS from a certain level of security just as plain
text. Particularly to protect myself from my own stupidity. How quickly
HTTPS becomes HTTP. A typo or an insufficiently configured proxy can do
that in a second. Seen it all. See it every day.

Security has mainly to do with robustness. Although transport layer
security is basically safe, it is fragile in real life and it depends on many
factors, whether HTTPS is really safe.

On the other hand, that they don't support API keys restricted to specific functions (trade/withdrawal/..) is indeed a severe limitation.

Yes, this is really bad.

[OhShei8e]

Who in the forum has the same problem or managed to withdraw fiat currencies?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=179586.msg2781660#msg2781660

[Peter Lambert]

Looks like bitstamp is about to take the number one exchange spot away from MtGox!

From bitcoincharts:

Symbol	Exchange	24 hr volume(BTC)	24 hr volume(USD)
mtgoxUSD	Mt. Gox	8,196.54	748,447.04 USD
bitstampUSD	BitStamp	8,002.70	689,184.58 USD

[r.schulz]

How do you want to do a MitM attack with a plaintext password send over HTTPS?!?

HTTPS protects in theory against MitM attacks not in practice.

Many programs (especially hastily codet bots) do not care about the
validity of a certificate.

HMAC is also only secure against replay attack if the nonce is checked correctly. And for that you need to trust that MtGox did it correctly. I prefer trusting myself that I know how to implement a cert check then having to trust others.

Also there is always junk in the trust chains, see eg:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=724929

You don't need to trust anything but bitstamp. You can check directly their cert against a saved key. Or their CA cert if you trust them and don't want to update the check if bitstamp updates their cert.

[r.schulz]

The distribution of order sizes is very different between both exchanges:

https://i.imgur.com/0l893W9.png
https://i.imgur.com/THxIJNB.png

Shows the last 20k transactions (~4days) as amount histogram. Wonder why

[zeroblock]

May 3rd   Coinlab Suit
May 14th    Dwolla Seizure
June 20th   Temporary Hiatus on US dollar withdraws
July 4th    Resumption of withdraws
July 10th   Changes to Deposit procedures









source: bitcoincharts.com

[smoothie]

Looks like bitstamp is about to take the number one exchange spot away from MtGox!

From bitcoincharts:

Symbol	Exchange	24 hr volume(BTC)	24 hr volume(USD)
mtgoxUSD	Mt. Gox	8,196.54	748,447.04 USD
bitstampUSD	BitStamp	8,002.70	689,184.58 USD

I've started using Bitstamp very recently. So far no problems.

Pretty much instant verification as a customer providing appropriate documentation.

I've decided to stop using GOX. Until they can prove for a period of 6-12 months that they have indeed a professional exchange and team to run such a high volume Bitcoin exchange, I will stay far away from there.

Even the price on gox is "off" when compared to the rest of the exchanges that exist. Roughly $10 gap UP which isn't normal.

[solex]

I have done exactly the same thing.

[btctraderr]

Doing the same thing

[smoothie]

We have made three USD wire transfer withdrawals starting from June 12th ...

We have not yet received any of our wire transfers and have had no updates to our support tickets or emails.  5 weeks and counting.  It's very worrisome

Has anyone else received a wire transfer in the past month, whether USD, EUR, or JPY?

I am in a similar situation. I am waiting on two pre "hiatus" USD wire withdrawals, the first made on 13 June. My support ticket just got a generic answer with specifics as to when the withdrawal would be processed.

IF GOX can't give clear cut answers to their customers concerning withdrawals that is THE SIGN you should cut your losses and get your money off of their exchange in the form of bitcoins ASAP.

Gox has been pretty silent ever since the coinlab and dwolla incident. Not a good sign.

[eldentyrell]

Even the price on gox is "off" when compared to the rest of the exchanges that exist. Roughly $10 gap UP which isn't normal.

No, it's exactly what you'd expect in a situation like this.

[TimJBenham]

Even the price on gox is "off" when compared to the rest of the exchanges that exist. Roughly $10 gap UP which isn't normal.

No, it's exactly what you'd expect in a situation like this.

That explanation doesn't hold water. Sure, in the short term prices on the fiat non-paying exchange will go up, but that only lasts until the fiat balances are exhausted. If people lack confidence in the exchange they wont be sending fiat there, so the process has an end point where there is no fiat on the exchange, volume drops to zero and price is undefined. The MtGox situation has been going on for months. Wouldn't all pre-crisis fiat balances have been exhausted by now?