Bitcoin is Dead

[cryptonibb]

I´m sorry but I just had to post this.


Did you all noticed the more ASIC devices enter the mining market, the less Bitcoin is worth?

There is a reason for this. Bitcoin is going from a decentralized systems to a centralized system.

Miners like ASIC foundation have the power and money to disrupt a crypto coin. They are just an example, of how the usual guy is going to be left out eventually.

I read that most miners from Bitcoins jumped into LiteCoins. Well, I see the same happening to LiteCoin eventually.

Both crypto coins are dead as dead in water in the future because once they grow they kill the novelty that made is so attractive in their beginnings.

Lets see. Miners do it for profits, not just novelty. At least most do, eve if you generate 1 BC a month, that is something, but once a standard machine will generate 1 BC in year, the story is another one. Why? Because this coins do not depend on numbers of hooks or peer, or computing power as a whole distributed, they just require raw computing.

So being more efficient, putting huge clusters, ASIC chips, is the only way to go in the future. Is there something wrong with this? Absolutely not, this is why datacenters exists and huge companies have a price advantage over the little guy but you all forget something. Is not that exactly what made Bitcoin such a novelty? That Joe at home could run their system as mining at nights, to generate a few coins? Not for living, not as income, just for fun. But the fun is over once you generate nothing...

Don´t you all see the problem here? This novelty users are stopping to promote Bitcoins heavily on the Internet, some that invested heavily in GPU moved to Litecoin and are probably promoting that, in order to increase the prices on their interests.

Bitcoins does not have enough business and companies that accept it as payment and neither its circulating enough (distributed) on the wild to make it an Internet currency.

How many ASIC manufacturers are in the world? Probably one.

And you can count with 3 or 4 hands the people or companies that can get this. And what ever you think, want or do, Chinese will get this chips sooner than you do if they want. Its absolutely inevitable since they are produced there.

Do you want to spend hundreds of thousands or millions on chips that can only do one job? Mining? And once they can´t mine anymore, would they accomplish another use? Like processing transactions for a fee? Currently no.

Bitcoin is getting centralized, the small miner is going to die, the big miner, companies or centralized in organizations is the future. Once they kill each other off, probably there will be left 2 or 3 major ones, and this ones will have such huge setups that you would not even think on making 0,0000000001 bitcoins a year with the best hardware.

Is this wrong? Well if you think Bitcoin is so strong because its P2P, its wrong. The whole system will be vulnerable and have a few single points of failures.

There is absolutely nothing at all, that incentive the coin to be P2P at all. Because it all relies on raw computing power, regardless of where it comes and in how much quantities. It does not promote or distribute load. It does not distribute mining, the whole system is build so that actually 1 person can cash everything if they had enough hashing power and money.

I feel sorry for all those buying ASIC devices thinking they are the future. Just think for a minute. What makes you think one huge company or organization is not directly going to the manufacturers and buying all chips in advance? People like the ASic mining foundation where using ASIC way before the little Joe even had them. There is absolutely no point in selling technology to the consumer, if you can sell it directly to business for a huge profits at once.

Once the Bitcoin network runs only on ASIC devices, it will be running on a single chip, the whole network !!!! And once the the big guys come in and the little ones are left out, it will get centralized very fast.

Both LiteCoin and Bitcoin suffer from exactly the same huge flaw. It only promotes a Peer to Peer user network on its beginning stages, once they have value and as people get greedy, they try to extract profits as fast and as hard as they can. Nothing wrong with that, except this does not promote a peer to peer network. You don´t need me, or Joe with his laptop, or mom at home with her Android device, or Jim that has a rack in a datacenter (as ram and cpu alone is pretty much useless anyway)

The Bitcoin network does not need anyone of you. All it needs is 100,000 ASIC chips running a high efficient datacenter on one single place.

[1714910207]

1714910207

[greyhawk]

Miners like ASIC foundation have the power and money to disrupt a crypto coin. They are just an example, of how the usual guy is going to be left out eventually.

Pray tell what is this mythical ASIC foundation, good sir?

[cryptonibb]

Miners like ASIC foundation have the power and money to disrupt a crypto coin. They are just an example, of how the usual guy is going to be left out eventually.

Pray tell what is this mythical ASIC foundation, good sir?

Those ones that mine like thousands of BC every single day?
http://www.asicminer.co/about.html

And they happen to be behind the bitcoin foundation which is supposed not to be involved in bitcoin transaction but at the same time they are actually the biggest miners in the world, getting like 500 Bitcoins every 10 minutes.

Notice this does not seem to be a pool that distributes between a few members, I think we are going to see more of this miners in the future.

Also, you do realized that you cannot get ASIC devices right now even if you want even while tons of peoples are mining with them already. The first one will always have a huge leap over the rest, and they are only releasing ASIC devices or selling them to the market, once they see there are not threat to them.

[jnagyjr]

I kind of have to agree with you on that, ASIC miners will eventually completely out-perform Joe Miner just doing it for whatever reason (personally I'd like to make some BTC but can't because my rig would explode). It won't kill BTC, and it certainly won't centralize it. It's worth is in its utility and if it's holed up in only 2-3 wallets, it has no utility at all thus no worth. It's in everyone's best interests to use BTC more and more, otherwise the scenario you speak of will happen (with few wallets holding most of the coin). On the other hand, having many competing cryptocurrencies would also help keep BTC from becoming irrelevant.

[cryptonibb]

My point is that the systems would benefit from this:

100,000 miners
100 huge miners
2 mega huge miners
1 million users miners that come and go.

And so.

VS:

3 Mega Huge Corporations miners

10 million user that mine for 1 hour and go away for ever.

You see the problem here?

The 3 Mega Huge ones, would be 3 single points of failure. When they lose power, all transactions would be hurt, when they go offline, suddenly the difficulty of mining would drop at exponential rates. When they have problems, everyone else would. They would control and be God over bitcoin, including the price as they would control most of the mining.


The system does not promote at all being decentralized, this means one user in Russia, one in New York, one in Sydney, etc.

This is what makes the whole network robust and fault tolerant.

ASIC mining will displace this, because the standard consumers cannot get this devices. By the time the usual Joe can get a small ASCI miner, it will be to late, his own device will be a piece of crap that will generate nothing and as opposed to normal computers or servers, which can be shifted to other loads, miners can´t.

Why do we need an Internet currency that does not rely on Internet computers? Your computer, that server in a datacenter, that tablet, all of them are useless for bitcoin production and network grow. They give nothing to the Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is going to special hardware, not because Bitcoin wanted, because its the logic step to do. Because Bitcoin itself is flawed to the point it does not take RAM into account, or location or bandwidth or anything what actually makes the Internet what is is.

We, the user.

[cryto4rig]

They are in the process of getting BTC on the stock market, google Bitcoin in the news section. That will give it a boost. You can make a really long statement why you think its dead but you have to look at all resources first, if BTC gets on Nasdaq, that was a lot of writing for nothing.

[thermos]

let us pray together to bring bitcoin back to life NYC;)

[cryptonibb]

They are in the process of getting BTC on the stock market, google Bitcoin in the news section. That will give it a boost. You can make a really long statement why you think its dead but you have to look at all resources first, if BTC gets on Nasdaq, that was a lot of writing for nothing.

Not true, not a single ASIC vendor is shipping.

Do you mean BT Labs? They still did not shipped a single unit sold this year 2013.

And most people buying this devices are suckers, that forget something. By the time they get their devices, all of the other people that pre ordered before you, probably including last year, will hook up their device first.

This means the hashing difficulty will be 100 times or more harder when you hook yours. So that device you though would make you 10 bitcoins a month, will make you 1 a year by the time you receive it and put it online.

Not to mention all this huge guys that had access to thousands of ASIC chips before you go. Once they start to go up online, your ASIC device, regardless of how strong or big it is, will generate absolutely nothing.

And GPU mining? Will that is a laugh right now, the minute just maybe a very small % of ASIC go online, imagine when most that where sold get online...

If all of them where sold at the same time, this would have leveled fields. Why?

Because that person buying 1000 of this devices, would still not outpower all those 10,000 customers buying 1 device, which in total are still more. You get the point?

But this is not true. The companies selling this ASIC devices, are mining with them until they make no profit anymore, (Avalon) then they put theirs to sale. Others say they have limited supply but ship devices to media magazines and Internet reporters all over the Internet to increase their presales. Other ones says they are out of stock but sell behind doors 1000 devices to a specific miner of company.

All chips come exactly from the same place? Don´t you see the problem here? They are not being delivered to the consumer. Its the biggest corruption ever made, they want the cakes share first, and what they don´t realize, is that they are destroying themselves at the same time, as Bitcoin is losing value.

If Bitcoin loses its decentralized mining system, its dead. At least now. Maybe in 20 years when everyone uses it like they use PayPal, centralized mining or transaction would work, but right now? No. Bitcoin is to new, and once most bitcoins or mining are in a few hands, new users will completely feel and smell a scam. Its all about trust. Bitcoin without trust is dead.

And the ASIC market should showed that you cannot trust this ASIC vendors, they all come from the same hand and are benefiting their friends or heavy buyers first vs the normal and standard consumer.

Absolutely all 3 ASIC vendors right now are a complete scam. They used their customers money from pre-orders to fund their own ASIC mining operations.

[cryptonibb]

let us pray together to bring bitcoin back to life NYC;)

To late. ASIC manufacturers are a single monopoly.

And since mining bitcoins with standard equipment is useless, Bitcoin is now more like a specialized geek coin, not an Internet coin that everyone can generate or use.

All this articles that are gathered to newbies explaining how you can generate bitcoins with your computers, should start to rewrite themselves because its not true anymore.

And its quite ironic, because Bitcoin is supposed to be an Internet currency that works in computers, but does not need computers. Not at least the ones you use for the Internet.

This is the only reason why some people are going to LiteCoin, but Litecoin is weaker than Bitcoin and ASIC will come to them as well, because they are both based on the same principle which is completely flawed.

Organizations that where supposed to protect bitcoin from this, are actually behind mining themselves as fast and hard as they can.

On one part they promote the use of bitcoin for paying and selling, to increase online business with bitcoins, but behind doors, they hold as many as they can.

[cryto4rig]

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/07/02/bringing-bitcoin-to-the-mainstream/?_r=0

http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/02/investing/winklevoss-bitcoin-etf/

http://rt.com/business/winklevoss-twins-bitcoin-ipo-520/

 etc....

 Gotta do your research

[cryptonibb]

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/07/02/bringing-bitcoin-to-the-mainstream/?_r=0

http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/02/investing/winklevoss-bitcoin-etf/

http://rt.com/business/winklevoss-twins-bitcoin-ipo-520/

 etc....

 Gotta do your research

I was aware of that already and that has nothing to do with what im posting.

If the ones producing bitcoins, (mining) are only ones which you can count with one hand, its loses trust among non bitcoin users, and it loses it romance among geeks that wanted to produce their own.

[Severian]

They are in the process of getting BTC on the stock market

Great. A P2P currency with your name and info attached to every coin. That's exactly why I got into Bitcoin: so that the banking/finance/govt system could continue to track us in our financial affairs.

Bitcoiners are killing Bitcoin.

[cryto4rig]

Well honestly, would you rather :

 1. Sell your BTC for 5X, 6X or more its current value even though the gov. gets involved and it gets on exchange and banks start getting a hand in it.
 2. Your BTC remains the same value, maybe dips more and more, but governments never get involved, nor banks.


 I think most of us would choose to cash out, money always wins in the end.

[Severian]

Well honestly, would you rather :

Better a free pauper than a rich servant. YMMV.

[jnagyjr]

A couple of things.

First of all, ASIC's are shipping out. Butterfly Labs is irrelevant because they made themselves irrelevant. Avalon and others have already shipped.

Secondly, the Winklevoss twins aren't irrelevant to this discussion. If BTC trading takes off on NASDAQ it still becomes unprofitable to keep BTC in so few wallets. Without the utility of Bitcoin, there is no value in Bitcoin. It's that simple. If you don't think so, look at fiat currencies. Virtually worthless on their own, but because each fiat currency is legal tender in it's region of dominance (in other words, it has utility) it has value.

Finally, if BTC gets to be like regular currency (as seems to be the suggestion in BitCoin Magazine in this article), then yes, it will be useless to those who saw it as a way to move away from prying eyes. Our financial affairs are our own. The government has no business in them. This will make the issue of ASICs even more irrelevant if this idea flourishes.

[jnagyjr]

Well honestly, would you rather :

Better a free pauper than a rich servant. YMMV.

I wish I could +1 your post.

[cryto4rig]

Well honestly, would you rather :

Better a free pauper than a rich servant. YMMV.

Well, you must live in the U.S. then.
 But, where I live, I take the money and live freely, not being a servant to anyone... so, your statement dosent make much sense...

[Severian]

I wish I could +1 your post.

You just did.

[Severian]

But, where I live, I take the money and live freely, not being a servant to anyone... so, your statement dosent make much sense...

If you're allowing the banks/government to monitor your purchases of BTC so they can track who has them and where they go just so you can make a few bucks, you're in service to the government. It's also a waste of a perfectly good P2P, decentralized, pseudonymous currency.

I don't care if a bitcoin is worth 1 cent if govt/banks keep their greasy mitts off of it.

[cryptonibb]

Ah gosh, Im so surprised when people think some people want Bitcoins because they are unregulated just because they want to do something illegal.

Let me tell you something, and I know anyone that traveled enough around the world knows this.

In the US, EU, and other countries, you go to a bank branch, with 0$ or 50$ and have your credit card and bank account ready to go. Yes, its all pre-filled.

This is absolutely NOT true in the rest of the world. In most places, minimum to open a bank account is anywhere between 3,000$ and 10,000$ fixed, which you need not only to open but maintain. And no credit cards there.

You see the problem? There is a huge population in this planet that is online and cannot access regular payment systems. This is the only TRUE benefit of bitcoins in terms of not being regulated or controlled. That anyone was able to get them. (was, since this is not true anymore, you can´t mine them anymore....)

You will not believe how many people want to buy something online but can´t, because PayPal is not in their country, or they have not CC or bank account, which of course PayPal requires as well.

You will not believe how many people want access to be able to pay, but can´t.

Bitcoin was a supposed to be a solution to them. Right now, its not anymore, as you need to buy them somewhere, and we are again in the same dilemma, buy them with some standard payment method.

Also, another huge benefit of Bitcoins was that merchants had a way safe to receive money without being scammed, this means chargebacks.

But there is no point for merchants if the consumers owning Bitcoins are null. And they are going to be null, if they cannot get them with their computers.

Now, I don´t care about government intervention, but do you fail to realize that then we don´t actually need Bitcoins at all? If I want something regulated, I will use the real thing like PayPal.

The only reasons I like Bitcoins, is because Bitcoin cannot shut you down. Like PayPal could if they decide this, right or wrong, its possible for the banking systems to shut down any websites payment systems right now. There are only 2 major credit card brands and PayPal is more or less a monopoly as well today.

Bitcoins is supposed to be in the hands of no specific company, so nobody is supposed to impose rules on you.