Bitcoin is Dead

[cryto4rig]

But, where I live, I take the money and live freely, not being a servant to anyone... so, your statement dosent make much sense...

If you're allowing the banks/government to monitor your purchases of BTC so they can track who has them and where they go just so you can make a few bucks, you're in service to the government. It's also a waste of a perfectly good P2P, decentralized, pseudonymous currency.

I don't care if a bitcoin is worth 1 cent if govt/banks keep their greasy mitts off of it.

Like I said, you must live in the U.S.
 Not all countries hate their government, and not all governments are "Nazi Germany" like the U.S. is.

[jnagyjr]

But, where I live, I take the money and live freely, not being a servant to anyone... so, your statement dosent make much sense...

If you're allowing the banks/government to monitor your purchases of BTC so they can track who has them and where they go just so you can make a few bucks, you're in service to the government. It's also a waste of a perfectly good P2P, decentralized, pseudonymous currency.

I don't care if a bitcoin is worth 1 cent if govt/banks keep their greasy mitts off of it.

Like I said, you must live in the U.S.
 Not all countries hate their government, and not all governments are "Nazi Germany" like the U.S. is.

I don't know where you live, but I bet you see rainbows and unicorns on a daily basis, don't ya?

Every. Last. Government.

That's how many spy on their own people. Some are just better at hiding it.

[cryptonibb]

But, where I live, I take the money and live freely, not being a servant to anyone... so, your statement dosent make much sense...

If you're allowing the banks/government to monitor your purchases of BTC so they can track who has them and where they go just so you can make a few bucks, you're in service to the government. It's also a waste of a perfectly good P2P, decentralized, pseudonymous currency.

I don't care if a bitcoin is worth 1 cent if govt/banks keep their greasy mitts off of it.

Like I said, you must live in the U.S.
 Not all countries hate their government, and not all governments are "Nazi Germany" like the U.S. is.

Which one exactly? As far as I know, the US is the most free country. If you want Nazi type countries, go to Europe, UK, France, Spain, Germany, Netherlands, etc, all those are way more Nazi than the US ever was.

They even spy their Internet users looking at supposed extremist websites, this is nothing more than political censorship if you think about it.

At least the US does not hide the fact when they are discovered and you would amaze how worst it is in other places.

But the point is that its not the government that im afraid with bitcoins, its banks.

If banks where controlling bitcoin, they would say who can use them and who can´t, and sending bitcoins, to one place to another would a % of the amount, not to mention micropayments would be impossible like they are today on the Internet. Its impossible to send 1 dollar cent to one part of the world to another.

[jnagyjr]

But, where I live, I take the money and live freely, not being a servant to anyone... so, your statement dosent make much sense...

If you're allowing the banks/government to monitor your purchases of BTC so they can track who has them and where they go just so you can make a few bucks, you're in service to the government. It's also a waste of a perfectly good P2P, decentralized, pseudonymous currency.

I don't care if a bitcoin is worth 1 cent if govt/banks keep their greasy mitts off of it.

Like I said, you must live in the U.S.
 Not all countries hate their government, and not all governments are "Nazi Germany" like the U.S. is.

Which one exactly? As far as I know, the US is the most free country. If you want Nazi type countries, go to Europe, UK, France, Spain, Germany, Netherlands, etc, all those are way more Nazi than the US ever was.

They even spy their Internet users looking at supposed extremist websites, this is nothing more than political censorship if you think about it.

At least the US does not hide the fact when they are discovered and you would amaze how worst it is in other places.

But the point is that its not the government that im afraid with bitcoins, its banks.

If banks where controlling bitcoin, they would say who can use them and who can´t, and sending bitcoins, to one place to another would a % of the amount, not to mention micropayments would be impossible like they are today on the Internet. Its impossible to send 1 dollar cent to one part of the world to another.

That's what is the big consideration should be. ASIC miners are going to put themselves out of business eventually as the amount of bitcoins is fixed, so once they are all circulating, nothing left to mine. again, though, if banks do that they'll effectively kill off Bitcoin and lose money themselves. It's not in their best interests to mess with BTC in any way.

[cryptonibb]

It may be not be the best interests, you are right.

But greed will bring bitcoins down. The human nature of greed.

They are disrupting the bitcoin ecosystem, even if they don´t know about.

I can only see bitcoin prices dropping.

Also, you forget one huge point. Once bitcoins can´t be mined anymore, someone is supposed to process the transactions of the network.

And guess who is going to be in the best position to do it?

The huge ASIC miners. So the whole transaction systems will be so centralized that they could be fixing a % for faster processing.

Right now, ASIC devices can´t do anything but mine. I don´t know if in the future they can be modified to do something else, but the point still holds true.

Its not going to be a global peer to peer system anymore.

[cryto4rig]

But, where I live, I take the money and live freely, not being a servant to anyone... so, your statement dosent make much sense...

If you're allowing the banks/government to monitor your purchases of BTC so they can track who has them and where they go just so you can make a few bucks, you're in service to the government. It's also a waste of a perfectly good P2P, decentralized, pseudonymous currency.

I don't care if a bitcoin is worth 1 cent if govt/banks keep their greasy mitts off of it.

Like I said, you must live in the U.S.
 Not all countries hate their government, and not all governments are "Nazi Germany" like the U.S. is.

Which one exactly? As far as I know, the US is the most free country. If you want Nazi type countries, go to Europe, UK, France, Spain, Germany, Netherlands, etc, all those are way more Nazi than the US ever was.

They even spy their Internet users looking at supposed extremist websites, this is nothing more than political censorship if you think about it.

At least the US does not hide the fact when they are discovered and you would amaze how worst it is in other places.

But the point is that its not the government that im afraid with bitcoins, its banks.

If banks where controlling bitcoin, they would say who can use them and who can´t, and sending bitcoins, to one place to another would a % of the amount, not to mention micropayments would be impossible like they are today on the Internet. Its impossible to send 1 dollar cent to one part of the world to another.

I have lived in over a dozen countries, and visited many more.

 The U.S. is one of the least free countries in the world. But, what do I know, it comes from experience, and actually being outside the U.S. looking in.

[yvv]

But, where I live, I take the money and live freely, not being a servant to anyone... so, your statement dosent make much sense...

If you're allowing the banks/government to monitor your purchases of BTC so they can track who has them and where they go just so you can make a few bucks, you're in service to the government. It's also a waste of a perfectly good P2P, decentralized, pseudonymous currency.

I don't care if a bitcoin is worth 1 cent if govt/banks keep their greasy mitts off of it.

US dudes hate their government so much. Why the hell do you happily run to vote for it every 4 years?

[jnagyjr]

I have lived in over a dozen countries, and visited many more.

 The U.S. is one of the least free countries in the world. But, what do I know, it comes from experience, and actually being outside the U.S. looking in.

Really? I'm sorry, but you've got it wrong.

[jnagyjr]

But, where I live, I take the money and live freely, not being a servant to anyone... so, your statement dosent make much sense...

If you're allowing the banks/government to monitor your purchases of BTC so they can track who has them and where they go just so you can make a few bucks, you're in service to the government. It's also a waste of a perfectly good P2P, decentralized, pseudonymous currency.

I don't care if a bitcoin is worth 1 cent if govt/banks keep their greasy mitts off of it.

US dudes hate their government so much. Why the hell do you happily run to vote for it every 4 years?

I don't hate my government, I hate what it's become. I hate what a minority of people and corporate interests are making it, and I hate that not enough people care to see it changed. I don't hate my government, but I surely do not trust it (nor any others, especially any EU countries).

[cryto4rig]

But, where I live, I take the money and live freely, not being a servant to anyone... so, your statement dosent make much sense...

If you're allowing the banks/government to monitor your purchases of BTC so they can track who has them and where they go just so you can make a few bucks, you're in service to the government. It's also a waste of a perfectly good P2P, decentralized, pseudonymous currency.

I don't care if a bitcoin is worth 1 cent if govt/banks keep their greasy mitts off of it.

US dudes hate their government so much. Why the hell do you happily run to vote for it every 4 years?

I don't hate my government, I hate what it's become. I hate what a minority of people and corporate interests are making it, and I hate that not enough people care to see it changed. I don't hate my government, but I surely do not trust it (nor any others, especially any EU countries).

I live no where near the E.U.

[jnagyjr]

But, where I live, I take the money and live freely, not being a servant to anyone... so, your statement dosent make much sense...

If you're allowing the banks/government to monitor your purchases of BTC so they can track who has them and where they go just so you can make a few bucks, you're in service to the government. It's also a waste of a perfectly good P2P, decentralized, pseudonymous currency.

I don't care if a bitcoin is worth 1 cent if govt/banks keep their greasy mitts off of it.

US dudes hate their government so much. Why the hell do you happily run to vote for it every 4 years?

I don't hate my government, I hate what it's become. I hate what a minority of people and corporate interests are making it, and I hate that not enough people care to see it changed. I don't hate my government, but I surely do not trust it (nor any others, especially any EU countries).

I live no where near the E.U.

No one said you did.

[MooC Tals]

2cents

USD is being regulated out of reach for bitcoins. The new rules will make exchanges less reliable to exchange your bitcoins for USD cash transactions. MtxGox is experiencing this right now. Many other exchange services are battling this as we speak.

That was another nail in the coffin for bitcoin.

Who are they? Well if you wish to place your tinfoil hats on gentlemen, the they is the same people that kill dictators that wish to bring in gold and silver as a currency.

If you can see the link there then you will understand the attacks on bitcoin are not coincidental and can be expected. They you will understand how asics have been allowed to come to the forefront to inflate bitcoin and allow it to destroy it self.

The They have been at this for quite a while and know how to protect their interests.

They can't kill a central authority so they have began to kill the Idea.

[Magnetic88]

ASICminer alone has not only check-mated normal miners, but also other ASIC users before they even get out of the gate.  It will just take a little while for people to realize.  An excellent point the OP had about the chinese chips.  ASICminer has gotten plenty of equipment while BFL and Avalon have had shortages.  Why?  Most likely because of ASICminers' oversees connection.  Oh well, Bitcoins are still great with or without the mining aspect.

[MooC Tals]

Back to the original topic ...

First, novelty is bad. Novelty does not increase the real value and utility of Bitcoin. As long as the main selling point for Bitcoin is its novelty, its adoption will never grow beyond the nerds in their parents' basements. The only way Bitcoin can grow is by killing the novelty.

Second, if there is any centralization of mining, it is only temporary. Anyone can get into ASIC mining. Right now you can buy the Block Erupter USB sticks -- they only cost 1 BTC, and thousands are being sold. Someday, BFL will ship their Jalapenos. There are several companies that are designing ASICs and soon will be selling chips that others will incorporate into mining hardware that will be bought by everyone.

Finally, even though ASICMINER mines 1/3 of the bitcoins, shutting them down would not shut down Bitcoin. There is no problem of lack of decentralization here. Your fears are unfounded.

You're missing the point. Mining - profit = dead coin. Erupter's are not going to pay for sunk cost. That is novelty as your post suggests should be killed.

You make good points but as I see things from other POV's and I can't agree with you at all.

Have you taken a look at BTC on the exchange? I can go look at a post a month ago stating exactly what is happening today. Mining is not the problem here its greed.

[suprabitz]

it all depends on how avalon and BFL chips do. If Avalon or BFL can be the "AMD" of asics then there's  competitive force for white-box asic builders to build profitable miners. Else they won't sell any. And there will be pressure for Avalon and BFL to produce affordable chips. Right now there IS NO COMPETITION only promises. There's a handful of pre-orders being delivered, and Asicminer has the only production devices, so all the GPU miners are at a 50x disadvantage. When there's 3 companies competing to make the cheapest chips and producing real products, there will be incentive to produce profitable miners. Else nobody would buy them, and the chip makers would go bust. Look at Intel before AMD. Look at Nvidia before ATI/AMD. AT&T before the rest of them. Prices came down drastically with competition..

Maybe not ones that make 100% return in 90 days, maybe more like 10-15% return over the year, accounting for difficulty increases. That sure is better than 3% in a CD.

[cryptonibb]

Back to the original topic ...

First, novelty is bad. Novelty does not increase the real value and utility of Bitcoin. As long as the main selling point for Bitcoin is its novelty, its adoption will never grow beyond the nerds in their parents' basements. The only way Bitcoin can grow is by killing the novelty.

Second, if there is any centralization of mining, it is only temporary. Anyone can get into ASIC mining. Right now you can buy the Block Erupter USB sticks -- they only cost 1 BTC, and thousands are being sold. Someday, BFL will ship their Jalapenos. There are several companies that are designing ASICs and soon will be selling chips that others will incorporate into mining hardware that will be bought by everyone.

Finally, even though ASICMINER mines 1/3 of the bitcoins, shutting them down would not shut down Bitcoin. There is no problem of lack of decentralization here. Your fears are unfounded.

Call it romance then instead of novelty. There is a reason why you, I and allot of other people spend so much time in a digital currency. Because they feel they are part of it, and help it grow.

Once you are relegated to never ever in your life be able to produce even one single coin, you feel no part in creating it.

Your must be bad a math, because what you posted is actually pure novelty. Those USB sticks where started to be sold once they generated less in one year what they even cost to purchase.

Would you spend 1000$ to make 10$ a year?

There are tons of ways better to make an investment, and buying ASIC devices right now is a huge bad deal. Unless you buy 10,000$ or 100,000$ in ASIC devices, and plan to hook them as soon as next month.

By the time those Jalapenos hit the main stream market, they will generate barely nothing at all. Their users will never pay them off, ever. You see? The company knows this, this is why they are selling them.

Also, you all fail to see, that as far as I know, Bitcoin belongs to China now.

Don´t you think there aren´t people with money in China? Not to mention people that can get chinese chips faster than you or I will ever get. If they are the only ones in the world capable of producing the chips that produce the globals Internet currency, then we have a problem. Its far from a global e-currency, if one single part of the world has a huge market advantage over the rest.

You could say the rest about standard computers right? Well no. Because when Bitcoins appeared the whole world had computers already, and the market is stable. ASIC are new, and are just hitting the market, so they will be steadily controlled, in particular because they only fulfill one purpose, make Bitcoins.

Please notice that has nothing to do with China or Chinese, which have the right to produce bitcoins like everyone else. But its like saying the Federal bank or the machine that prints money is in China.

The problem is with Bitcoins. The protocol is flawed. Standard computing fails. And if we cannot use standard computing to produce a currency which is supposed to be used in standard computing then "Houston, we have a problem."

You do not buy or trade with ASIC devices either right?

[cryptonibb]

it all depends on how avalon and BFL chips do. If Avalon or BFL can be the "AMD" of asics then there's  competitive force for white-box asic builders to build profitable miners. Else they won't sell any. And there will be pressure for Avalon and BFL to produce affordable chips. Right now there IS NO COMPETITION only promises. There's a handful of pre-orders being delivered, and Asicminer has the only production devices, so all the GPU miners are at a 50x disadvantage. When there's 3 companies competing to make the cheapest chips and producing real products, there will be incentive to produce profitable miners. Else nobody would buy them, and the chip makers would go bust. Look at Intel before AMD. Look at Nvidia before ATI/AMD. AT&T before the rest of them. Prices came down drastically with competition..

Maybe not ones that make 100% return in 90 days, maybe more like 10-15% return over the year, accounting for difficulty increases. That sure is better than 3% in a CD.

Well here lies the biggest problem. Would you sell something for 10 million? If you can produce 10000 million with it and have the monopoly over production?

What makes you think this factories or produces will not just hold on purpose production? They will. It happen with diamonds, and its happening with Bitcoin.

Bitcoins will become the diamonds of e-currency, only a few big producers and some others in the delivery chain.

Its amazing how much trust some of you have, while GPU miners are disconnecting themselves every day, and they yet are able to receive even one single ASIC unit, while some others have thousand of them and are mining by the minute bitcoins.

When exactly do you think it will be right to mine with ASIC? Next year? In 3 years? I don´t see a single market left for individual miners in the next months from now. Mining is already a novelty.....

And that is very sad, because as opposed to real mining, you where supposed to be able to use your spare computing devices to grow that thing called Bitcoin.

The market prices going down will just show how right im on this as time goes on. Unless we see a dramatic shift like a change in the protocol, or different manufacturers of ASIC actually delivering on time.

[crumbs]

They are in the process of getting BTC on the stock market, google Bitcoin in the news section. That will give it a boost. You can make a really long statement why you think its dead but you have to look at all resources first, if BTC gets on Nasdaq, that was a lot of writing for nothing.

And it's getting on nasdaq because ... a couple of wales can't cash out of bitcoin any other way without losing $$$ to the IRS & crashing MtGox in the process.  Nice argument

[esenminer]

The current drop is Bitcoin price is probably due to the uncertainty that ASIC miners are creating not the actual ASIC miners themselves. People aren't sure what's going to happen - (especially the GPU Bitcoin miners) so they are likely selling pushing the price down. Once the adjustment period is over, price will likely rebound.

[crumbs]

The current drop is Bitcoin price is probably due to the uncertainty that ASIC miners are creating not the actual ASIC miners themselves. People aren't sure what's going to happen - (especially the GPU Bitcoin miners) so they are likely selling pushing the price down. Once the adjustment period is over, price will likely rebound.

You're missing OP's point:  ASICS don't bring uncertainty, the outcome is *certain.*  If you had a money press that prints real money, why would you sell it?  
Edit: ASICs are, or are claimed to be, these printing presses.  If they make more bitcoins than you pay for them & the juice to run them -- a no-brainer win unless... THE VALUE OF BITCOINS GOES DOWN.  That's the only sound reason to sell the printing press   And they're being made.  And sold.