I am fucking panicking

[desired_username]

The thing is, I can find lots of things to do with bitcoins. But in virtually all cases, it is much faster, convenient and liquid to use dollars. None of the bitcoin revolutionists here have explained -- what can you do with bitcoin that you can't do more easily with fiat?

You can store value / invest. And you can buy overpriced drugs in mail.

What else?

@desired username

let's pretend I am completely new to bitcoins, never even heard of them before you told me about them. I ask you how I can acquire said coins

What would be your response?

Obviously, without going into details here, I would point them towards:

-Several exchanges
-Localbitcoins
-Bitcointalk
-Local bitcoin forums

I know it can be hard for some people to buy them, but it's basically because of the restricted financial system and early stage of adoption. Funnily it also highlights the state of our freedom quite apparently. ;-)

I always feel that people expect a complete / finished product when they first hear about bitcoin. It has a lot more headroom to grow in my opinion and not just in terms of acceptance. This past 1 year showed pretty decent progress. When I started mining there weren't even any shop accepting it. Now I always check if something can be bought for bitcoin first.

Again, I understand if it's not convenient for everyone at this very moment but it can easily change (or not).

[psybits]

Of course the black market aspect is there - but it is NOT the only reason BTC exists and to say BTC relies on black market transactions only for its current value is in fact a very outdated and incorrect point of view.

Silk Road's popularity was about the same when the value was $13 so are you saying all the rest of the increase of the market cap is from other black market activity only?

When SR was down for over 48 hours (and no one knew if it was coming back) it hardly affected the price of BTC at all.

I don't use the service at all but as I actually follow everything happening in the Bitcoin ecosystem I was aware of this.

Have you done a google news search for Bitcoin yet?

EDIT: Here I'll help you: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=uk&tbm=nws&authuser=0&q=bitcoin

I hope it helps you realize Bitcoin is far, far more than just a tool for the black market. It could be argued Silk Road was important in the evolution of Bitcoin - but now? Bitcoin as a whole has outgrown it and I would argue it is irrelevant as more and more investors and entrepreneurs are seeing the more revolutionary aspects which Bitcoin brings to the table.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Just wait a bit.

I'm buying more, just waiting to see how many bears get in on the pile.

Here I go, fixin' shit again!

[desired_username]

the average person using bitcoins to buy drugs isn't going to be filling out some shitty survey especially via a fucking google doc link. Only those with small minds IGNORE the black market aspect

I for one don't ignore it. I think it's way over rated.

I don't take drugs and never used silkroad, but I think that people generally will have a positive idea of it in the long run.

You cannot fight drug use by force. There should be a legitimate non-profit organization providing "clean" drugs, proper therapies, and activities for the drug addicts. Legalizing weed will be a step in the right direction.

That way you would kill the black market, the related corruption, and the exposure to unsafe substances immediately.

[hate_the_face]

The thing is, I can find lots of things to do with bitcoins. But in virtually all cases, it is much faster, convenient and liquid to use dollars. None of the bitcoin revolutionists here have explained -- what can you do with bitcoin that you can't do more easily with fiat?

You can store value / invest. And you can buy overpriced drugs in mail.

What else?

@desired username

let's pretend I am completely new to bitcoins, never even heard of them before you told me about them. I ask you how I can acquire said coins

What would be your response?

Obviously, without going into details here, I would point them towards:

-Several exchanges
-Localbitcoins
-Bitcointalk
-Local bitcoin forums

that's a lot of ground work to be doing to be simply buying groceries. If I were looking for a specific good I did not have access to in my area I could see why that would be worth the trouble, maybe something like hmmm drugs?

I always feel that people expect a complete / finished product when they first hear about bitcoin.

nobody expects that, which is why devs made new coins.

Silk Road's popularity was about the same when the value was $13 so are you saying all the rest of the increase of the market cap is from other black market activity only?

No I am saying Silk Road put Bitcoin into the public eye and brought in a large number of speculators who were banking on more people using said TOR services and willing to sell off massive amounts when the first sign of a downward trend made itself apparent. Yeah, those people are really down for your cause. The very group you think is going to help bitcoin is going to drive it into the ground.

When SR was down for over 48 hours (and no one knew if it was coming back) it hardly affected the price of BTC at all.

Because people who use Silk Road aren't buying coins for their fiat value, they are buying them to immediately spend on drugs which are pegged to automatically adjust to the USD value of bitcoins. Nobody was panic selling their coin stash out of fear of losing the ability to acquire the same amount of drugs as before the site went down.

I don't use the service at all but as I actually follow everything happening in the Bitcoin ecosystem I was aware of this.

you follow everything that happens in an anonymous ecosystem, must be nice being able to tell bold faced lies on the internet.

Have you done a google news search for Bitcoin yet?

EDIT: Here I'll help you: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=uk&tbm=nws&authuser=0&q=bitcoin

I hope it helps you realize Bitcoin is far, far more than just a tool for the black market. It could be argued Silk Road was important in the evolution of Bitcoin - but now? Bitcoin as a whole has outgrown it and I would argue it is irrelevant as more and more investors and entrepreneurs are seeing the more revolutionary aspects which Bitcoin brings to the table.

No I have not, I base my opinions off my own logic and reasoning and that way if I am wrong it is my own damn fault.

Bitcoin hasn't outgrown shit, the size of your egos have you twat

keep welcoming increased regulation and mainstream support while turning your back on the very things that made it what it is today. See how it plays out, I'm sure those investors and entrepreneurs really give two fucks about the long-term future of Bitcoin

[psybits]

This is my last contribution to this thread.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21929256.100-bitcoin-sells-out-as-big-business-moves-in.html

Have a great day dude.

P.S I base my opinions on my own research and analysis too.

When I found BTC it took me two weeks of serious study late last year to really wrap my head around it in a serious way.

I don't see what the problem is - if Bitcoin doesn't get legitimate it will be made illegal - period.

It is extremely easy to pass legislation which would cripple Bitcoin - I am not going to say how in this thread however!

[hate_the_face]

This is my last contribution to this thread.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21929256.100-bitcoin-sells-out-as-big-business-moves-in.html

Have a great day dude.

P.S I base my opinions on my own research too.

as it should be, what are you even trying to prove besides everything I just fucking said?

All that article is is simply PR talk on their part, nobody can come out and support illegal activities in public, but they can put up a front of legitimacy with the knowledge that people are going to use their coins to still make illegal purchases regardless of whether they acknowledge it or not.

You think Storz & Bickel are anti-marijuana behind closed doors? Fuck no, they'd be out of business. But they know how to find grey areas and work around them.

The problem is that things stuck in a grey area can never become entirely supported by the mainstream population because the majority of people only see things in black or white.

[psybits]

Well just wait for the Bitcoin banks, Bitcoin ATM's, (more) Bitcoin investment funds.

I know a number of people working on some very, very serious projects.

Bitcoin has gained massive traction in the last few months and this will only continue.

You are freaking out over nothing.

[tutkarz]

This is my last contribution to this thread.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21929256.100-bitcoin-sells-out-as-big-business-moves-in.html

Have a great day dude.

P.S I base my opinions on my own research too.

as it should be, what are you even trying to prove besides everything I just fucking said?

All that article is is simply PR talk on their part, nobody can come out and support illegal activities in public, but they can put up a front of legitimacy with the knowledge that people are going to use their coins to still make illegal purchases regardless of whether they acknowledge it or not.

You think Storz & Bickel are anti-marijuana behind closed doors? Fuck no, they'd be out of business. But they know how to find grey areas and work around them.

The problem is that things stuck in a grey area can never become entirely supported by the mainstream population because the majority of people only see things in black or white.

are you a total moron or you are here just to piss people off? Go and try to move dollars between exchanges and do the same with bitcoin and then say bs like this. The fiat is limitation over internet not bitcoin. With bitcoin you feel finally free and don't even need any 3rd party institution to help you carry your money over internet for fee. And even if you want to do daily shopping with bitcoin you don't need to wait for 6 confirmations with small transactions but much lower depending on value of bought items. It could be even zero confirmation which is instant if seller decide so.

To compare this to current visa paypass you also have instant payments with zero confirmations but they are not safe because people can steal your money buying a lot of small things which happend already by buying tickets for example. Which means visa cards are not safe too and banks don't give a shit to this and still are promoting these cards even if people don't want to use them.

[hate_the_face]

well you can't save everyone I guess

enjoy your bitcoin banks and investment funds

and your comically confident oxymorons  

[psybits]

well you can't save everyone I guess

enjoy your bitcoin banks and investment funds

and your comically confident oxymorons  

A diverse ecosystem is a healthy one.

[MAbtc]

It seems you forgot about the utility aspect for the pure reason that you, personally don't have one for it.

The thing is, I can find lots of things to do with bitcoins. But in virtually all cases, it is much faster, convenient and liquid to use dollars. None of the bitcoin revolutionists here have explained -- what can you do with bitcoin that you can't do more easily with fiat?

You can store value / invest. And you can buy drugs in mail.

What else?

I find shopping with BTC a lot more convenient. I don't need to give away the necessary details for charging my account. By the nature of my work, I travel awfully lot. I got sting by card fraud many times which is quite annoying.

I can do international transfers very quickly and without horrendous wait times and fees. I can buy desired things which are not sold in my country (electronics, domains and many more).

As I said it previously, the usefulness of BTC is highly dependent on personal circumstances and geolocation.

Saying that it won't be mainstream is ignorant in my opinion. maybe it will maybe it won't. time will tell.

I don't see anything fundamental here, though. I mean, I get it, you like bitcoin. (So do I.) And great, there's a niche of tech geeks that like it too. Like this guy--

Many people, including me, are captivated more by the technological aspects of the currency, and how different it is to anything which has come before, more than the black market aspect (myself included).

It is as revolutionary as the invention of the Internet itself, and is the first P2P currency to EVER be created.

I'm all for bitcoin as a payment system. I love anonymity and irreversible payments. But it's just so terribly illiquid. No one uses it. Whenever I've had to get cash to people, domestically or internationally, instant bank transfers and teller deposits (no/low fee) do the trick -- and that's how anyone I've ever known wants it (well, aside from those that require wires). I get the credit card fraud thing... and while that may hurt the image of credit cards for those affected by it, the BTC economy being the scam haven it is doesn't exactly help bitcoin's image either (in terms of adoption). I will say that when I have been a victim of CC fraud, the process was easy and my money was never in limbo. In the bitcoin economy, it is the Wild Wild West -- good luck getting recourse when your accounts are hacked, shady companies run off with your money, people defraud you, etc.

I don't live under a rock, but I've met one person, ever, who uses bitcoins and he is strictly a trader. I get that bitcoin can be used as a currency. By and large, it isn't, though. Perhaps someday. I don't think I said anything like bitcoin "won't be mainstream"... but it isn't. If you use bitcoin as a matter of convenience, I guarantee the vast majority of people (including myself) will use fiat as a matter of convenience. That, and as a matter of peace of mind, as I for one don't necessarily want to hold coins for long. Talking as if we are in some alternate reality where lots of people actually use bitcoin -- as many seem to do around here -- is just a pointless circle jerk.

I still see only two fundamental uses -- investment and black market trade. The rest is geek novelty and cult mentality, which, somehow, people around here pass off as utility.

I'm curious -- in regards to products you can buy with bitcoin (and not fiat? more conveniently than fiat?) what are you talking about, some more examples, web sites? From the perspective of someone who isn't actively involved with bitcoin and thus wouldn't be holding it, is this still true? I just don't see it.

[semaforo]

  Wait till China makes a run on US Treasury bonds, then you will see the utility of bitcoin.

[psybits]

I'm curious -- in regards to products you can buy with bitcoin (and not fiat? more conveniently than fiat?) what are you talking about, some more examples, web sites? From the perspective of someone who isn't actively involved with bitcoin and thus wouldn't be holding it, is this still true? I just don't see it.

A few quick examples but really you guys should do more research!

- There are invisible barriers to entry for people from many countries (especially in Africa and the Middle East) where it is virtually impossible for people to open a Paypal account. Artists, authors, entrepreneurs and more can easily accept payment in Bitcoin for their services from anyone anywhere in the world.

- Paypal and Visa transaction fees make micropayments (payments under $1 US) virtually impossible. These are easy, fast and convenient with BTC so for example someone can accept micro payment donations on their blog.

- Bitcoin is the first P2P currency in the history of the world and the first decentralized currency to have a value which is not tied to any one nation state. In terms of the evolution of humanity I see this as an amazing thing. It is the first truly global currency which ANYONE can participate in and accept payment in quickly and easily.

[hate_the_face]

A few quick examples but really you guys should do more research!

- There are invisible barriers to entry for people from many countries (especially in Africa and the Middle East) where it is virtually impossible for people to open a Paypal account. Artists, authors, entrepreneurs and more can easily accept payment in Bitcoin for their services from anyone anywhere in the world

.

LOL, I forgot about all those untapped internet markets in Africa and the Middle East. I'm sure all 12 people who would be interested would agree with you, but until you can sell blood diamonds or car bombs via BTC, I think you are over-estimating the importance of these markets. 

- Paypal and Visa transaction fees make micropayments (payments under $1 US) virtually impossible. These are easy, fast and convenient with BTC so for example someone can accept micro payment donations on their blog.

Talk about digging for reasons to defend yourself, that is the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard. Are we talking about giving homeless people spare change or making donations online? The words "fast, easy, and convenient" should also never be used in the same sentence as Btc, puhh-lease

- Bitcoin is the first P2P currency in the history of the world and the first decentralized currency to have a value which is not tied to any one nation state. In terms of the evolution of humanity I see this as an amazing thing. It is the first truly global currency which ANYONE can participate in and accept payment in quickly and easily.

Anyone can participate in other currencies as well, it's called getting a fucking job.

So delusional it's funny at times

[Cluster2k]

  Wait till China makes a run on US Treasury bonds, then you will see the utility of bitcoin.

If China dumps US Treasuries it would cripple the US economy.  Destroying the economy of your second largest trading partner (largest is the entire EU combined) is economic suicide.

[psybits]

A few quick examples but really you guys should do more research!

- There are invisible barriers to entry for people from many countries (especially in Africa and the Middle East) where it is virtually impossible for people to open a Paypal account. Artists, authors, entrepreneurs and more can easily accept payment in Bitcoin for their services from anyone anywhere in the world

.

LOL, I forgot about all those untapped internet markets in Africa and the Middle East. I'm sure all 12 people who would be interested would agree with you, but until you can sell blood diamonds or car bombs via BTC, I think you are over-estimating the importance of these markets.  

- Paypal and Visa transaction fees make micropayments (payments under $1 US) virtually impossible. These are easy, fast and convenient with BTC so for example someone can accept micro payment donations on their blog.

Talk about digging for reasons to defend yourself, that is the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard. Are we talking about giving homeless people spare change or making donations online? The words "fast, easy, and convenient" should also never be used in the same sentence as Btc, puhh-lease

- Bitcoin is the first P2P currency in the history of the world and the first decentralized currency to have a value which is not tied to any one nation state. In terms of the evolution of humanity I see this as an amazing thing. It is the first truly global currency which ANYONE can participate in and accept payment in quickly and easily.

Anyone can participate in other currencies as well, it's called getting a fucking job.

So delusional it's funny at times

Ok you have degenerated to swearing and in fact this whole conversation you have been rude many times unlike me.

I can't be bothered picking apart the twenty or so fallacies in your arguments (or your conflation of my points with counter arguments that do not even address what I actually said) - I have better things to do than write an essay right now.

You can't troll me goodbye and ignored.

[hate_the_face]

that's the ticket, keep ignoring anyone who doesn't see your grand vision of a future dominated by Bitcoin

"oh you don't think I'm right? Ignored!"

that is a surefired way to appeal to the masses

all people asked for was some kind of legitimate reason to use bitcoins instead of fiat currencies for anything besides spending on TOR, and you give us that.

[psybits]

Sorry all I can see is "This user is currently ignored."

You need to chill out go get a massage or something - if you can afford it.

[fcmatt]

the speculation bubble is deflating.. just like last time. it will be in the 50s in a month or two. that is what happens when you have more sellers then buyers.
everyone is quickly realizing that there is little point in buying bitcoin right now unless you plan to speculate. and the speculators are drying up. so get the
hype machine rolling again guys. you need fresh meat.