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Author Topic: Tobin Tax. Anyone want to help me build the Tobin Tax website?  (Read 9332 times)
niemivh
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July 01, 2011, 07:33:01 PM
 #1

The need for at least a 1% Tobin tax has long been overdue.  The amount of speculative money sloshing through the world markets is staggering and a speculative drain on the real economy.  In addition the advent of hyper-trading and flash-trading is another toxic poison to the real stock market of capital investors, entrepreneurs and businesses.  In addition, it is the most feasible way to shift the burden of closing the deficit from the backs of the pillaged and raped middle-class to the bailout taking parasites on Wall Street.

If you don't know about the Tobin Tax and how it could close the deficit and fix many problems of our existing system then please read up on it.

For those that have already done their homework and know the benefits that a Tobin tax would have please PM me.  I'm diving into doing more 'hard research' targeted specifically at this issue exclusively in order to build my website.

I need help: researching, making animated videos, website design, essay writing.

If you'd like to help please PM me and we can start a conversation.

Thanks.

 Smiley

I'll keep my politics out of your economics if you keep your economics out of my politics.

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July 01, 2011, 07:36:57 PM
 #2

The most feasible way to end these deficits is to end the creators of our money in the first place. It is absolutely immoral to tell a man he can't trade contracts on his property and labor as he pleases.
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July 01, 2011, 08:53:34 PM
 #3

1. The Tobin tax wont do anything to end speculation. What will end speculation is having a sound monetary system that does not allow the financial system to leverage "to the sky".

2. The Tobin tax is just a scheme for the politicians to get a part of the money, and the ones that will end up paying it is us through more expensive services.

All this said, I hope the Tobin tax gets imposed (Sarkozy is a big fan) so people have another good reason to switch to Bitcoin. The more oppressive the system becomes, the better for Bitcoin.
niemivh
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July 01, 2011, 09:29:56 PM
 #4

1. The Tobin tax wont do anything to end speculation.

Still looking for silver bullets?  Obviously the problem is multi-pronged but to say that "The Tobin tax wont [sic] do anything to end speculation." is completely false.  Rather than discuss that the majority of trades on the NYSE are done with computers and that the average stock is held for less than 20 seconds (the average of 11 has been reported) you simply poo-poo this idea in favor of some other methods (which are good in their own right) but not going to solve our problem by themselves.  Can we quit being so pedestrian in our thought-process?  Looking for a single solution to a complex problem is a fools errand.  The Tobin tax is what I want to focus on, if you'd like to start a site to stop the ridiculous levels of leverage then be my guest - I'd even be willing to help.

I'll keep my politics out of your economics if you keep your economics out of my politics.

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niemivh
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July 01, 2011, 09:33:53 PM
 #5

The most feasible way to end these deficits is to end the creators of our money in the first place. It is absolutely immoral to tell a man he can't trade contracts on his property and labor as he pleases.

Then please propose a fairer system of collecting revenue for the government.  That is, if you believe a government should even exist at all...?

Are there no limits to what people should be able to trade "as they please"? 

I'll keep my politics out of your economics if you keep your economics out of my politics.

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July 01, 2011, 09:42:22 PM
 #6

The most feasible way to end these deficits is to end the creators of our money in the first place. It is absolutely immoral to tell a man he can't trade contracts on his property and labor as he pleases.

Then please propose a fairer system of collecting revenue for the government.  That is, if you believe a government should even exist at all...?

Are there no limits to what people should be able to trade "as they please"? 
I prefer decentralized power that can actually be held accountable. To answer your second question, there should be no limits as long as it does not involve murder nor violence.
niemivh
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July 01, 2011, 10:22:16 PM
 #7

The most feasible way to end these deficits is to end the creators of our money in the first place. It is absolutely immoral to tell a man he can't trade contracts on his property and labor as he pleases.

Then please propose a fairer system of collecting revenue for the government.  That is, if you believe a government should even exist at all...?

Are there no limits to what people should be able to trade "as they please"?  
To answer your second question, there should be no limits as long as it does not involve murder nor violence.

Is starvation violence?  What about coercion through threat of privation?


"I prefer decentralized power that can actually be held accountable."


What does that even mean?  Is there some book out there or post you've made that can better define what cryptic posts like this mean to someone who takes interest in the structure of government and how it operates?  How far off the mark is it from the ideals of the book "Atlas Shrugged"?

I'll keep my politics out of your economics if you keep your economics out of my politics.

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hugolp
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July 01, 2011, 10:23:29 PM
 #8

1. The Tobin tax wont do anything to end speculation.

Still looking for silver bullets?  Obviously the problem is multi-pronged but to say that "The Tobin tax wont [sic] do anything to end speculation." is completely false.  Rather than discuss that the majority of trades on the NYSE are done with computers and that the average stock is held for less than 20 seconds (the average of 11 has been reported) you simply poo-poo this idea in favor of some other methods (which are good in their own right) but not going to solve our problem by themselves.  Can we quit being so pedestrian in our thought-process?  Looking for a single solution to a complex problem is a fools errand.  The Tobin tax is what I want to focus on, if you'd like to start a site to stop the ridiculous levels of leverage then be my guest - I'd even be willing to help.

Let me repeat again: The Tobin tax wont do nothing to prevent speculation. If some channels are closed the financial system will find other ways to use the leverage power that the governments provides them via the central banks.

And it will produce an increase of price on the services we use. Its just a scheme for politicians to get part of the money, it has nothing to do with stopping speculation.

That said, please go ahead and get the Tobin tax approved, for Bitcoin sake.
Anonymous
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July 01, 2011, 10:30:30 PM
 #9

The most feasible way to end these deficits is to end the creators of our money in the first place. It is absolutely immoral to tell a man he can't trade contracts on his property and labor as he pleases.

Then please propose a fairer system of collecting revenue for the government.  That is, if you believe a government should even exist at all...?

Are there no limits to what people should be able to trade "as they please"?  
To answer your second question, there should be no limits as long as it does not involve murder nor violence.

Is starvation violence?  What about coercion through threat of privation?


"I prefer decentralized power that can actually be held accountable."


What does that even mean?  Is there some book out there or post you've made that can better define what cryptic posts like this mean to someone who takes interest in the structure of government and how it operates?  How far off the mark is it from the ideals of the book "Atlas Shrugged"?


Starvation is only a symptom of people being denied the ability to sustain themselves. Rarely is this caused by misfortune but by the limiting of resources and economy by artificial means. Threatening governments is hardly coercion but more like using force against the initiator in the first place. Governments can only sustain "public" resources by coercion.

It means that we would have better order and a more viable society if law wasn't in the hands of a monopoly.
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July 02, 2011, 02:39:10 AM
 #10

I'd love for someone to tell my why speculation is bad.
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July 02, 2011, 08:37:18 AM
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I'd love for someone to tell my why speculation is bad.

I sense a thread derail coming, but yeah I don't see why speculation is so bad.
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July 02, 2011, 09:49:40 AM
 #12

The need for at least a 1% Tobin tax has long been overdue.  The amount of speculative money sloshing through the world markets is staggering and a speculative drain on the real economy.  In addition the advent of hyper-trading and flash-trading is another toxic poison to the real stock market of capital investors, entrepreneurs and businesses.  In addition, it is the most feasible way to shift the burden of closing the deficit from the backs of the pillaged and raped middle-class to the bailout taking parasites on Wall Street.

If you don't know about the Tobin Tax and how it could close the deficit and fix many problems of our existing system then please read up on it.

For those that have already done their homework and know the benefits that a Tobin tax would have please PM me.  I'm diving into doing more 'hard research' targeted specifically at this issue exclusively in order to build my website.

I need help: researching, making animated videos, website design, essay writing.

If you'd like to help please PM me and we can start a conversation.

Thanks.

 Smiley

Am I right in assuming you don't work in finance and have never done so? A 1% Tobin tax is utterly unthinkable. Ask the Swedish, who used far smaller Tobin taxes, what became of that experiment.

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July 02, 2011, 12:36:55 PM
 #13

Speculators HELP the economy. Their buying and selling provides pricing information. They only profit when they provide good information concerning future demand.  They profit from volatility, but by competing with each other, they REDUCE volatility.


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AyeYo
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July 02, 2011, 01:22:27 PM
 #14

Maybe just ignore the kids with the black/white worldviews and no understanding of trading and the rest of us can talk about this intelligently.

I'm browsing the wiki page and, without dedicating hours of time to read it all, maybe you can answer my question... 

What does this do to retail FX traders?  This is always my worry when these type of taxes and regulations pop up.  They have a tendacy to hurt the retail guys, while doing little to the multi-billion dollar banks.

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
niemivh
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July 04, 2011, 08:34:58 AM
 #15

The need for at least a 1% Tobin tax has long been overdue.  The amount of speculative money sloshing through the world markets is staggering and a speculative drain on the real economy.  In addition the advent of hyper-trading and flash-trading is another toxic poison to the real stock market of capital investors, entrepreneurs and businesses.  In addition, it is the most feasible way to shift the burden of closing the deficit from the backs of the pillaged and raped middle-class to the bailout taking parasites on Wall Street.

If you don't know about the Tobin Tax and how it could close the deficit and fix many problems of our existing system then please read up on it.

For those that have already done their homework and know the benefits that a Tobin tax would have please PM me.  I'm diving into doing more 'hard research' targeted specifically at this issue exclusively in order to build my website.

I need help: researching, making animated videos, website design, essay writing.

If you'd like to help please PM me and we can start a conversation.

Thanks.

 Smiley

Am I right in assuming you don't work in finance and have never done so? A 1% Tobin tax is utterly unthinkable. Ask the Swedish, who used far smaller Tobin taxes, what became of that experiment.

I'm assuming you have no idea what you're talking about quoting an article that brief and lacking in any detail.  Do you know what a Stock Market is supposed to represent?  What does it mean for a company to invest in your stock and then sell it and then buy it again once per nano-second?  What does that even mean?  Building algorithms that exploit market gyrations to get 0.01% profits over and over again provides no net benefit to the economy.  Nothing new gets built, no research is done, no productivity is increased, no new products are made, no jobs are created etc.  Please do some research on the automated trading networks and look up more than 1 page articles on 'how horrible' a Tobin Tax is.    If you think Goldman Sachs is providing a service to civilization by hyper-trading I'd love to hear the argument.

I'll keep my politics out of your economics if you keep your economics out of my politics.

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niemivh
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July 04, 2011, 08:47:35 AM
 #16

Speculators HELP the economy. Their buying and selling provides pricing information. They only profit when they provide good information concerning future demand.  They profit from volatility, but by competing with each other, they REDUCE volatility.



More than people that work?  More than people that invent?  More than people that create? 

Seems like there would be more of a public will to try and get back the bailout money that went to Wall St.  Many of the well known firms pay nearly no corporate tax, how better do you propose to tax them?  How do you reconcile the hyper-trading which is uber-short term parasitical speculation with what a stock market is supposed to be?  This is total short term investment to the extreme where the trader has 0 stake in the companies long term (anything beyond a few mirco-seconds) success. 

How that can be looked upon as favorable or acceptable is beyond me.  Please explain.

I'll keep my politics out of your economics if you keep your economics out of my politics.

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niemivh
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July 04, 2011, 08:51:44 AM
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I'd love for someone to tell my why speculation is bad.

I sense a thread derail coming, but yeah I don't see why speculation is so bad.

Apparently that's because both of you aren't aware of how much of it is going on, at least I hope that is the answer.  Before I write a 10 page history on this I'll test the waters: do you think that there is any amount of speculation that would be 'too much' or is it fine to have 50 times GDP of a country flowing in and out of that countries capital markets annually?

I'll keep my politics out of your economics if you keep your economics out of my politics.

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niemivh
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July 04, 2011, 09:00:17 AM
 #18

Maybe just ignore the kids with the black/white worldviews and no understanding of trading and the rest of us can talk about this intelligently.

I'm browsing the wiki page and, without dedicating hours of time to read it all, maybe you can answer my question... 

What does this do to retail FX traders?  This is always my worry when these type of taxes and regulations pop up.  They have a tendacy to hurt the retail guys, while doing little to the multi-billion dollar banks.

Question:  Are you hypertrading?
If the answer is no and you are actually using the market as it was originally intended and setup 100s of years ago then is a 1% fee on each transaction going to crush your profits?  Are you in for at least a mid-term investment or just a quick buck?

"They have a tendacy to hurt the retail guys, while doing little to the multi-billion dollar banks."

A Tobin Tax would do just the opposite as all the major banks and hedge funds are now using algorithmic trading, hence the large scale resistance to the Tobin Tax (check out the EU and the proposition of a Tobin Tax).  They say it will be the end of the world and liquidity will go to 0 and the sky will fall if they have to pay a 1% tax, this is nonsense.  There are many benefits that I won't cover here (too late at night, and too long to cover) in the direction of making markets more stable and other benefits beyond just the revenue - which would be immense!  I've heard estimates in the Trillions.  Do you want to be taxed to help pay off the national debt or do you what the Corporatocracy that has hijacked our government to pay for it?

I'll keep my politics out of your economics if you keep your economics out of my politics.

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July 04, 2011, 12:26:38 PM
 #19

Why not just impose a 30-day waiting period on currency transactions? People who need currency for 'legitimate' purposes will just need to plan ahead. Grin Seriously though,  what's stopping forex speculators from just using trading services based in countries with no such laws?

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July 04, 2011, 01:39:30 PM
 #20

I'd love for someone to tell my why speculation is bad.

I sense a thread derail coming, but yeah I don't see why speculation is so bad.

Apparently that's because both of you aren't aware of how much of it is going on, at least I hope that is the answer.  Before I write a 10 page history on this I'll test the waters: do you think that there is any amount of speculation that would be 'too much' or is it fine to have 50 times GDP of a country flowing in and out of that countries capital markets annually?


No, I don't think there is the concept of "too much".  Maybe you can explain why.  Even just a short summary.
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