Instead of Prisons?

[alan2here]

I think even if it's thought about differently in the future, even with different motivations for the population as a whole and even if used far less than at the moment, there will still need to be mechanisms for seperating groups of people.

I'm not talking about nationalism, I'm talking about what would today be called incarceration, but I don't consider it is a great solution so lets explore some others.

I'm going to use an example person who is not very typical but gives an example of a difficult case.

Jake is 30 and an academic studying the mind, his is politically fairly anarchist, mostly sociable and his thoughts largely revolve around his academic interests, he generally considers financial matters only enough to maintain the low maintenance lifestyle he is very happy with.

Jake however has mood swings and tends to start fights and injur strangers when he feels down.

There is an effective treatment for this, subtly taking into account the many small factors for his condition and carefully realigning only what needs to change, even taking the patients preferences into consideration. Jake however considers this aspect of his personality to be a part of himself and won't agree to the change.

Jake has been caught three times, the first time he received an official warning, the 2nd was a period of time in jail, this is the 3rd and he is given a choice of punishments:

1. Prison, some of which may be served as community service.
2. Accepting the treatment and a shorter time in Prison.
3. Exile to a suitable region, in his case it is much more anarchistic and contains a lot of people with severe mood swings, it's more dangerous that where he currently lives but no war zone and may be a better fit for him. Returning to many others regions would then require Jake to accept punishment 1 or 2.
4. Your own solutions that should be able to apply to a variety of crimes.

Discuss.

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[TECSHARE]

Why are punishments almost always centered around revenge rather than restitution for the victims? maybe Jake needs mandatory employment working for the victim until he works off a suitable sum in proportion to the damages caused? In the case of murder, in many states they take the life of the murderer. Why not take that life and put it to constructive use rather than just ending life in revenge?

[giantdragon]

Why are punishments almost always centered around revenge rather than restitution for the victims? maybe Jake needs mandatory employment working for the victim until he works off a suitable sum in proportion to the damages caused? In the case of murder, in many states they take the life of the murderer. Why not take that life and put it to constructive use rather than just ending life in revenge?

+1M
I would strongly vote for 3 variant (exile).

[Elwar]

Restitution to the victim.

It was found in icelandic law that if restitution could be transferrable it helped weaker victims who could not fight for their rights to sell their rights to restitution to someone who could.

Restitution was usually in the form of payments to the victim.

[randomcloud]

Why are punishments almost always centered around revenge rather than restitution for the victims? maybe Jake needs mandatory employment working for the victim until he works off a suitable sum in proportion to the damages caused? In the case of murder, in many states they take the life of the murderer. Why not take that life and put it to constructive use rather than just ending life in revenge?

Why does talk about punishment always have to devolve into self-righteous whining about revenge? That's literally what the state is FOR -- it's a centralized substitute *for* individual revenge. Deal with it.

[TECSHARE]

Why are punishments almost always centered around revenge rather than restitution for the victims? maybe Jake needs mandatory employment working for the victim until he works off a suitable sum in proportion to the damages caused? In the case of murder, in many states they take the life of the murderer. Why not take that life and put it to constructive use rather than just ending life in revenge?

Why does talk about punishment always have to devolve into self-righteous whining about revenge? That's literally what the state is FOR -- it's a centralized substitute *for* individual revenge. Deal with it.

Excuse me, but if anyone is wining here it is you. Even if you don't give a crap about the well being of criminals whatsoever, the fact still remains that society paid a great debt to bring that individual to adulthood, and will continue to pay huge debts to incarcerate them. Reparations are a substitute for revenge because the victim can profit from the labor of the perpetrator.

The existing criminal justice system is nothing but a machine designed to take good old American biblical eye for an eye blood lust and transform it into a corporate profit system that neither deters crime nor brings reparations to the victims. If you want to spend half of your paycheck paying to incarcerate alcoholics for being alcoholics, drug addicts for being drug addicts, and poor people for being poor that's fine - just don't expect the rest of society to help you. If you really think our country (taxpayers) can afford to keep incarcerating more than 2.5 million people and growing, you are truly ignorant. Go take your liberal bashing bullshit rhetoric to a liberal.

[worldinacoin]

How about learning from China, one bullet each

[PrintMule]

Why are punishments almost always centered around revenge rather than restitution for the victims? maybe Jake needs mandatory employment working for the victim until he works off a suitable sum in proportion to the damages caused? In the case of murder, in many states they take the life of the murderer. Why not take that life and put it to constructive use rather than just ending life in revenge?

Forced labor sounds constructive enough for me

I would like to have same prisons, but with people isolated inside those prisons, in single cells. No physical contact (in some cases verbal) with other inmates whatsoever. They can be of constructive use from inside there too.

[TECSHARE]

Why are punishments almost always centered around revenge rather than restitution for the victims? maybe Jake needs mandatory employment working for the victim until he works off a suitable sum in proportion to the damages caused? In the case of murder, in many states they take the life of the murderer. Why not take that life and put it to constructive use rather than just ending life in revenge?

Forced labor sounds constructive enough for me

I would like to have same prisons, but with people isolated inside those prisons, in single cells. No physical contact (in some cases verbal) with other inmates whatsoever. They can be of constructive use from inside there too.

They have those. It is called a maximum security SHU (Segregated Housing Unit).

[randomcloud]

Excuse me, but if anyone is wining here it is you. Even if you don't give a crap about the well being of criminals whatsoever, the fact still remains that society paid a great debt to bring that individual to adulthood, and will continue to pay huge debts to incarcerate them. Reparations are a substitute for revenge because the victim can profit from the labor of the perpetrator.

The existing criminal justice system is nothing but a machine designed to take good old American biblical eye for an eye blood lust and transform it into a corporate profit system that neither deters crime nor brings reparations to the victims. If you want to spend half of your paycheck paying to incarcerate alcoholics for being alcoholics, drug addicts for being drug addicts, and poor people for being poor that's fine - just don't expect the rest of society to help you. If you really think our country (taxpayers) can afford to keep incarcerating more than 2.5 million people and growing, you are truly ignorant. Go take your liberal bashing bullshit rhetoric to a liberal.

What you're arguing for is, can be, and would be used as a kind of revenge. Honestly, if I was someone looking for revenge, I'd *love* a system where someone I used the legal system to screw over would be forced to give me money and/or be my servant for a long time period. That'd be MUCH more humiliating than simply being sent to prison or punished in some other way. I'd LOVE to be able to emotionally abuse and bully them with no fear of recourse, with people like you supporting the abuse of the people you claim to protect 'cos you think it makes you look morally superior. Modern day indentured servitude for the win.

I actually dislike the American prison system too for the reasons you stated among many others, but ok.

[TECSHARE]

Excuse me, but if anyone is wining here it is you. Even if you don't give a crap about the well being of criminals whatsoever, the fact still remains that society paid a great debt to bring that individual to adulthood, and will continue to pay huge debts to incarcerate them. Reparations are a substitute for revenge because the victim can profit from the labor of the perpetrator.

The existing criminal justice system is nothing but a machine designed to take good old American biblical eye for an eye blood lust and transform it into a corporate profit system that neither deters crime nor brings reparations to the victims. If you want to spend half of your paycheck paying to incarcerate alcoholics for being alcoholics, drug addicts for being drug addicts, and poor people for being poor that's fine - just don't expect the rest of society to help you. If you really think our country (taxpayers) can afford to keep incarcerating more than 2.5 million people and growing, you are truly ignorant. Go take your liberal bashing bullshit rhetoric to a liberal.

What you're arguing for is, can be, and would be used as a kind of revenge. Honestly, if I was someone looking for revenge, I'd *love* a system where someone I used the legal system to screw over would be forced to give me money and/or be my servant for a long time period. That'd be MUCH more humiliating than simply being sent to prison or punished in some other way. I'd LOVE to be able to emotionally abuse and bully them with no fear of recourse, with people like you supporting the abuse of the people you claim to protect 'cos you think it makes you look morally superior. Modern day indentured servitude for the win.

I actually dislike the American prison system too for the reasons you stated among many others, but ok.

You are correct, it is a form of revenge. A form of revenge that produces constructive results for society helping to reconstruct the damage the loss that individual caused, as well as reducing the incentive to turn prisons into a commercial endeavor which drives arrest quotas. This as opposed to a system which is not only NOT constructive but creates even a further burden on society.

In your little scenario you assume a lot of things, like you would personally be overseeing the criminal that committed a crime against you. That is pretty moronic even by your standards. No one in their right mind would put the life of a human in your hands. As you pointed out sadistic individuals like yourself would commit further crimes abusing that individual, most likely leading to that person murdering you in your home because they cant take it any more. You make lots of assumptions about me and why I have the opinions I do. I will be the one to decide why I have an opinion thank you.

Funny how you skipped over the whole funding of 2.5 million people in prison part. I wonder why?

[semaforo]

   I've been working on an idea for a while, this seems like a chance to put it up for comment.

It's basically hybridizing the refuge camp and the prison. The idea is that if you group criminals together, they are going to become more criminal. If I hang out with southerners, eventually I am going to develop a drawl- peer group influences behavior. So criminals need contact with people who they can learn good habits from. The US accepts refugees all the time from places where there are wars or oppression going on, and the idea is to get these people working in small facilities on patches of land, say, a house with 8 bedrooms each with 2 to 4 bunk beds, a big communal kitchen and living area, a workshop and a farm. Maybe a few goats and cows, chickens, vegetables, corn and potatoes and some fruit trees, beehive and duck pond. Maybe a workshop for furniture, window frames, clothing. Take 10 low risk inmates selected for the program because of good behavior in prison, and 10 recent immigrants from Africa and Asia, and 4 -6 staff. The immigrants can get green cards based on good work results, and the inmates can get their sentence reduced.

    This way there is a majority of non-criminals in the work group, so the momentum of peer pressure in the groip will be towards non-criminal behavior. Since the immigrants and the criminals can both work for less than minimum wage to secure their early release or green card, the projects can be self sustaining. Currently eajch prisoner costs over 20k a year- a project like this could cost half that, since they would produce their own food, and the food and crafts could even be sold at a profit. In the mean time people would build relationships, learn work ethic, and learn non-criminal thinking. Bad behavior or violence would mean getting sent back to prison or having the visa revoked. Prisoners could be tracked with a tracking chip, so if they run off they would be easily found again. There would also be cultural exchange and people could learn about other parts of the world and maybe broaden their horizons.

    This would just be a way to reduce the number of people in prison and kind of decentralize the system.

[PrintMule]

One criminal can spoil a lot of non criminals in your scenario.

Also - who in their right mind would volunteer to stay beside that certain criminal in the first place?

[CasinoBit]

Courts are the Coliseums of 2013, they are full of demagogues that respond to the demands of the masses, thus people are being sent into a prison for punishment (and in fact it's not even remotely effective, as most of them return) instead of rehabilitation.

Chances are if Jake would be sent to a prison for starting a fight he would become a toughened up criminal when he leaves.

Of course in a neutral, anarchistic society violence would never exist to begin with (or at the very least not be as widespread as it is today).

[randomcloud]

You are correct, it is a form of revenge. A form of revenge that produces constructive results for society helping to reconstruct the damage the loss that individual caused, as well as reducing the incentive to turn prisons into a commercial endeavor which drives arrest quotas. This as opposed to a system which is not only NOT constructive but creates even a further burden on society.

In your little scenario you assume a lot of things, like you would personally be overseeing the criminal that committed a crime against you. That is pretty moronic even by your standards. No one in their right mind would put the life of a human in your hands. As you pointed out sadistic individuals like yourself would commit further crimes abusing that individual, most likely leading to that person murdering you in your home because they cant take it any more. You make lots of assumptions about me and why I have the opinions I do. I will be the one to decide why I have an opinion thank you.

Funny how you skipped over the whole funding of 2.5 million people in prison part. I wonder why?

So if it's a form of revenge then why all the "I'm above petty revenge" bullshit here? Why all the ad-homs? Why are you taking this so personally?

[TECSHARE]

You are correct, it is a form of revenge. A form of revenge that produces constructive results for society helping to reconstruct the damage the loss that individual caused, as well as reducing the incentive to turn prisons into a commercial endeavor which drives arrest quotas. This as opposed to a system which is not only NOT constructive but creates even a further burden on society.

In your little scenario you assume a lot of things, like you would personally be overseeing the criminal that committed a crime against you. That is pretty moronic even by your standards. No one in their right mind would put the life of a human in your hands. As you pointed out sadistic individuals like yourself would commit further crimes abusing that individual, most likely leading to that person murdering you in your home because they cant take it any more. You make lots of assumptions about me and why I have the opinions I do. I will be the one to decide why I have an opinion thank you.

Funny how you skipped over the whole funding of 2.5 million people in prison part. I wonder why?

So if it's a form of revenge then why all the "I'm above petty revenge" bullshit here? Why all the ad-homs? Why are you taking this so personally?

Perhaps it is because I never said those things, you are projecting them onto me, and making assumptions about my beliefs not based on what I said but your own twisted extrapolation of what you guess that I believe. You are making statements then attributing them to me when I said no such thing. That is just about equivalent with a personal attack in my book, certainly just as ignorant. Why don't you go find a democrat so you can work out your republican vs democrat asinine dualist rhetoric with someone who cares to participate in your red vs blue circle jerk.

[randomcloud]

Perhaps it is because I never said those things, you are projecting them onto me, and making assumptions about my beliefs not based on what I said but your own twisted extrapolation of what you guess that I believe. You are making statements then attributing them to me when I said no such thing. That is just about equivalent with a personal attack in my book, certainly just as ignorant. Why don't you go find a democrat so you can work out your republican vs democrat asinine dualist rhetoric with someone who cares to participate in your red vs blue circle jerk.

Well, you argued that the American prison system is bad because it's nothing but a form of biblical-style revenge, and in your first post you were complaining about punishments being centered around revenge and not restitution for the victims. You also think that I'm a Republican bible-basher with an unhealthy bloodlust, a perception that people who think the way you apparently do have, so it's pretty clear you do feel that way.

You never did answer my question, by the by. Why complain that a system is bad because it is based on revenge, and then advocate another system that's potentially worse because it's a more beneficial revenge in your eyes? Shouldn't all revenge be bad?

[giantdragon]

Why complain that a system is bad because it is based on revenge, and then advocate another system that's potentially worse because it's a more beneficial revenge in your eyes? Shouldn't all revenge be bad?

My personal opinion is 100% against revenge and for restitution. Implementing this system gives a sign of social progress and I will immediately move to the country who will introduce it first.

[TECSHARE]

Perhaps it is because I never said those things, you are projecting them onto me, and making assumptions about my beliefs not based on what I said but your own twisted extrapolation of what you guess that I believe. You are making statements then attributing them to me when I said no such thing. That is just about equivalent with a personal attack in my book, certainly just as ignorant. Why don't you go find a democrat so you can work out your republican vs democrat asinine dualist rhetoric with someone who cares to participate in your red vs blue circle jerk.

Well, you argued that the American prison system is bad because it's nothing but a form of biblical-style revenge, and in your first post you were complaining about punishments being centered around revenge and not restitution for the victims. You also think that I'm a Republican bible-basher with an unhealthy bloodlust, a perception that people who think the way you apparently do have, so it's pretty clear you do feel that way.

You never did answer my question, by the by. Why complain that a system is bad because it is based on revenge, and then advocate another system that's potentially worse because it's a more beneficial revenge in your eyes? Shouldn't all revenge be bad?

I would love to see the quote where I called you "a republican bible-basher with an unhealthy bloodlust". I did answer your question, you just ignored it and went on to play out your programming some more. You are arguing with points YOU created, attribute them to me, and knock them down like nice little easy to topple straw men. I think you have a problem with reading comprehension, so instead of reading it again and trying to understand what you are reading, you just fill in the blanks with your little warm fuzzy belivies to support your confirmation bias.

[randomcloud]

I would love to see the quote where I called you "a republican bible-basher with an unhealthy bloodlust".

If you want to spend half of your paycheck paying to incarcerate alcoholics for being alcoholics, drug addicts for being drug addicts, and poor people for being poor that's fine - just don't expect the rest of society to help you. If you really think our country (taxpayers) can afford to keep incarcerating more than 2.5 million people and growing, you are truly ignorant. Go take your liberal bashing bullshit rhetoric to a liberal.

In your little scenario you assume a lot of things, like you would personally be overseeing the criminal that committed a crime against you. That is pretty moronic even by your standards. No one in their right mind would put the life of a human in your hands. As you pointed out sadistic individuals like yourself would commit further crimes abusing that individual, most likely leading to that person murdering you in your home because they cant take it any more. You make lots of assumptions about me and why I have the opinions I do. I will be the one to decide why I have an opinion thank you.

Funny how you skipped over the whole funding of 2.5 million people in prison part. I wonder why?

Sorry man, but it's pretty clear you feel that way about me. When you saw my posts, you immediately flew off the handle and went into a rage because you clearly think that I feel that way, even though I stated I don't agree with the prison system for the reasons you stated, among many others.

Your hostility is keeping you from understanding what I was asking and talking about. I was talking about merely the revenge aspect of what you are proposing. Perhaps instead of immediately condemning and being hostile to people who are skeptical of your views, you could calm down and explain yourself more. I'm not trying to attack you nor did I intend to come off that way at all.

Now, as to my question. You did not answer it, you deflected it with hostility. In your first post in this thread, you said:

Why are punishments almost always centered around revenge rather than restitution for the victims? maybe Jake needs mandatory employment working for the victim until he works off a suitable sum in proportion to the damages caused? In the case of murder, in many states they take the life of the murderer. Why not take that life and put it to constructive use rather than just ending life in revenge?

Clearly you feel your system should NOT be used as a kind of revenge, but when I point out that it would in fact be so (and the way you describe it and considering the way reality works, the victim probably would be overseeing or controlling what happens to the prisoner to some degree), you tried to sell the idea as a kind of revenge. When I questioned you about the hypocrisy of it, you instead tried to change the subject. But this isn't about how either you or I are arguing, this is about my question.

If this working-for-the-victim-as-reparation system is a form of revenge (which you said it is) and that is clearly acceptable to you, then why would you complain about revenge at all? Why condemn one system for being revenge-based, but promote your own revenge-based system?

If you feel your system would be better than the status quo in other regards, what's the point of bringing up revenge?