0.25 BTC Bounty - Show me a Mt Gox USD Withdrawal :)

[Kouye]

Maybe because building up his own beliefs looks safer than drinking lies from a random homepage ?

[1714051370]

1714051370

[zeroblock]

It is impossible to know Mt.Gox's liquidity position at this moment, but there are things we know for certain:

1.) Mt.Gox's US entity, Mutum Signum had its accounts frozen.  More than likely a large portion of their USD revenue was tied up in that Dwolla account.  They may or may not get these funds back. I would expect they would have to get their Money transmitter license in all 50 states before these funds could be released.  That would take at least 12 months and $2M in fees/surety bonds(1)
2.) No one has gotten a wire out for almost a month, if they had they would have claimed the 0.75 BTC bounty.(2)
3.) Bitcoin holders are willing to take a 5-10% cut just to move their BTC out of Mt.Gox.  That's the reason why the spread is so large vs. Bitstamp.(3)(4)
4.) Legal defense is expensive.  They are fighting 2 fronts, one with Coinlab, and the other registering as an money transmitter in all 50 states.  They will lose the case against CoinLab for $75 MM.  Even if the outcome looked more positive, no bank would lend them money given the uncertainty of the outcome of the suit.(5) 
5.) Volume is at January lows, their trading revenue won't be enough to cover both legal fronts and operational costs.(5)
6.) Mt.Gox consistently releases confusing and contradictory information, so their "official" statements have no value. 
7.) Mt.Gox used to exchange liberty reserve dollars.  Any entity touching LR dollars has serious going concern.  I can assume they will have some legal issues with this as well.   

With that being said, there aren't many explanations that fit.  But even if Mt.Gox collapses, you still have rather large markets with Bitstamp, Coinbase, and Btc-e, which should be able to provide enough liquidity/volume until some US exchanges become compliant. 


(1) http://thegenesisblock.com/town-hall-discussion-with-gavin-andresen-and-patrick-murck/
(2) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=251895.0
(3) http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/
(4) http://thegenesisblock.com/bitcoin-mid-year-review-and-outlook/
(5) http://thegenesisblock.com/mt-gox-withdrawal-freeze-driving-significant-liquidity-concerns/

[Bigdaddyaz]

They did:
https://mtgox.com/press_release_20130620.html
https://mtgox.com/press_release_20130704.html

Specifically:

Over the past weeks Mt. Gox has experienced rising volumes of deposits and withdrawals from established and upcoming markets interested in Bitcoin. This increased volume has made it difficult for our bank to process the transactions smoothly and within a timely manner, which has created unnecessary delays for our global customers. This is especially so for those in the United States who are requesting wire transfer withdrawals from their accounts.

and:

Mt. Gox has now formed relationships with several new banking partners both in Japan and around the world, and we are still in the process of finalizing even more. This means that we will have increased stability and ability to transmit withdrawals going forward.

But why would people look for information on mtgox.com's front page when it is easier to spread rumors on this forum?

Not exactly. Neither of your quotes above state that MtGox is unable to fulfill withdrawal requests. If fact, the very first sentence of the most recent (7/4/13) press release states, "Mt. Gox is happy to announce that global account withdrawals have now fully resumed as of today, after several days of testing our new system for processing transactions. We want to keep you informed about our progress in this arena, and especially assure our customers that their funds are accessible."

Are you saying that this is the case, and that everything's fine and it's just random chance that nobody has been able to confirm a single withdrawal in the (nearly) two weeks since they released this statement?

It's one thing to say "withdrawals are slow but we're establishing new relationships to speed things up".

Entirely another to say "we're still not quite able to send withdrawals but we're taking the following steps, and will be ready shortly".

Lastly, who was your statement about "spreading rumors" referring to?

[Spaceman_Spiff]

Nice summary Zeroblock.

What makes you say they will lose against against CoinLab?  I haven't really followed that story much.

[Bugpowder]

It is impossible to know Mt.Gox's liquidity position at this moment, but there are things we know for certain:

1.) Mt.Gox's US entity, Mutum Signum had its accounts frozen.  More than likely a large portion of their USD revenue was tied up in that Dwolla account.  They may or may not get these funds back. I would expect they would have to get their Money transmitter license in all 50 states before these funds could be released.  That would take at least 12 months and $2M in fees/surety bonds(1)


(1) http://thegenesisblock.com/town-hall-discussion-with-gavin-andresen-and-patrick-murck/

Ha!  I was the guy that asked the question that got this answer. :-P

[Bugpowder]

Nice summary Zeroblock.

What makes you say they will lose against against CoinLab?  I haven't really followed that story much.

This suit will probably be settled for $1-2M.

[zeroblock]

I've done due diligence on over 370 MM worth of assets in the last 2 years.  Not saying i'm an attorney, but I can definitively tell you when there is a breach of contract.

Coinlab Vs. Mt.Gox

"On November 22, 2012 Mt.Gox and Coinlab entered into the Agreement to service the Bitcoin exchange market in a mutually beneficial manner that provided for stability and liquidity in the market."

"Pursuant to the Agreement, Defendants granted CoinLab an exclusive license in the North American market to use the Defendants' software and other intellectual property in providing digital currency exchange services (the "Licensed Materials")....Failure to comply with the exclusivity provisions of the Agreement is expressly specified to be a material breach of the Agreement."

"Defendants have breach the exclusivity provisions of the Agreement by directly servicing customers in the United States and Canada since the Agreement took effect...The Agreement provides that breach of the exclusivity provision of the Agreement alone provides for liquidated damages in the amount of $50,000,000.00 as a non-exclusive remedy.  The liquidated damages clause was defined at the time of the Agreement because of the uncertain nature of the Bitcoin exchange market and likely underestimates the actual damages incurred by Bitcoin as a result of Mt.Gox's breach of the exclusivity provision of the Agreement."

"Defendants have, in email and other written exchanges, and in public statements to the press, acknowledged that they have directly serviced customers in the United States and Canada since entering the Agreement."


You can read all of the other violations for yourself below.  Even if they settle for a fraction of the amount, they still wouldn't have nearly enough cash.  


http://www.scribd.com/doc/139160091/Coinlab-v-Mt-Gox

[notme]

They did:
https://mtgox.com/press_release_20130620.html
https://mtgox.com/press_release_20130704.html

Specifically:

Over the past weeks Mt. Gox has experienced rising volumes of deposits and withdrawals from established and upcoming markets interested in Bitcoin. This increased volume has made it difficult for our bank to process the transactions smoothly and within a timely manner, which has created unnecessary delays for our global customers. This is especially so for those in the United States who are requesting wire transfer withdrawals from their accounts.

and:

Mt. Gox has now formed relationships with several new banking partners both in Japan and around the world, and we are still in the process of finalizing even more. This means that we will have increased stability and ability to transmit withdrawals going forward.

But why would people look for information on mtgox.com's front page when it is easier to spread rumors on this forum?

Not exactly. Neither of your quotes above state that MtGox is unable to fulfill withdrawal requests. If fact, the very first sentence of the most recent (7/4/13) press release states, "Mt. Gox is happy to announce that global account withdrawals have now fully resumed as of today, after several days of testing our new system for processing transactions. We want to keep you informed about our progress in this arena, and especially assure our customers that their funds are accessible."

Are you saying that this is the case, and that everything's fine and it's just random chance that nobody has been able to confirm a single withdrawal in the (nearly) two weeks since they released this statement?

It's one thing to say "withdrawals are slow but we're establishing new relationships to speed things up".

Entirely another to say "we're still not quite able to send withdrawals but we're taking the following steps, and will be ready shortly".

Lastly, who was your statement about "spreading rumors" referring to?

They are sending withdraws, they are just backlogged.  They are able to fulfill withdrawal requests, it will just take time.  This is from further down in the same release:

The new system is just now getting under way, so there is still a back-log of withdrawals that we need to process. Our team is working hard to increase transaction speeds, but there is approximately a two-week back-log we need to overcome. It will take a few weeks to get back to normal, and we thank you for your patience during this time.

As for my "spreading rumors" statement, it is about 3/4 of the members of this forum who repeat things echo-chamber style and never look into the facts behind what they are repeating.  Don't take it personally.

[Nagle]

Someone needs to sue Mt. Gox. Now.

Since they have a registered agent in Delaware, they can be sued in Delaware. Small claims up to $15,000 can be brought in the Justice of the Peace court there.  There's even an interactive form for this.

You'll have to go to Delaware at least once.

Mt. Gox has to send someone to represent them, or they lose by default and you get a judgement against them.

You can enforce that judgement, even across national boundaries. There are international collection agencies.  They take a cut of what they recover, and don't charge you anything up front.

(Pay attention, suckers. You don't have to put up with this shit. You really can take steps which will eventually either get you paid or Mt. Gox out of business.)

[pyedpyper]

They did:
https://mtgox.com/press_release_20130620.html
https://mtgox.com/press_release_20130704.html

Specifically:

Over the past weeks Mt. Gox has experienced rising volumes of deposits and withdrawals from established and upcoming markets interested in Bitcoin. This increased volume has made it difficult for our bank to process the transactions smoothly and within a timely manner, which has created unnecessary delays for our global customers. This is especially so for those in the United States who are requesting wire transfer withdrawals from their accounts.

and:

Mt. Gox has now formed relationships with several new banking partners both in Japan and around the world, and we are still in the process of finalizing even more. This means that we will have increased stability and ability to transmit withdrawals going forward.

But why would people look for information on mtgox.com's front page when it is easier to spread rumors on this forum?

Not exactly. Neither of your quotes above state that MtGox is unable to fulfill withdrawal requests. If fact, the very first sentence of the most recent (7/4/13) press release states, "Mt. Gox is happy to announce that global account withdrawals have now fully resumed as of today, after several days of testing our new system for processing transactions. We want to keep you informed about our progress in this arena, and especially assure our customers that their funds are accessible."

Are you saying that this is the case, and that everything's fine and it's just random chance that nobody has been able to confirm a single withdrawal in the (nearly) two weeks since they released this statement?

It's one thing to say "withdrawals are slow but we're establishing new relationships to speed things up".

Entirely another to say "we're still not quite able to send withdrawals but we're taking the following steps, and will be ready shortly".

Lastly, who was your statement about "spreading rumors" referring to?

They are sending withdraws, they are just backlogged.  They are able to fulfill withdrawal requests, it will just take time.  This is from further down in the same release:

The new system is just now getting under way, so there is still a back-log of withdrawals that we need to process. Our team is working hard to increase transaction speeds, but there is approximately a two-week back-log we need to overcome. It will take a few weeks to get back to normal, and we thank you for your patience during this time.

As for my "spreading rumors" statement, it is about 3/4 of the members of this forum who repeat things echo-chamber style and never look into the facts behind what they are repeating.  Don't take it personally.

Do you work for Gox or just adulate them from afar?

Explain this:

Not sending wires for a month.
Refusing to refund funds not wired to the trading account.
Ignoring all requests for a clear explanation of what is going on.

Yeah everything's fine - they're just backlogged. Sure dude...

[notme]

Do you work for Gox or just adulate them from afar?

Explain this:

Not sending wires for a month.
Refusing to refund funds not wired to the trading account.
Ignoring all requests for a clear explanation of what is going on.

Yeah everything's fine - they're just backlogged. Sure dude...

I do not work for Gox.  I've just been around long enough to know that they don't move at the pace most people expect them to move.  Improvements could be made here.

You, however, are exaggerating.  The outage was 2 weeks.  There outage is over, but there is a large backlog of withdrawals that they are working through.  I have not seen any claims that cancelled wires were not made available to trade.  I have seen several claims of the converse (people cancelled withdrawals, bought btc, and then withdrew).  They have already clearly explained the situation with the press releases I linked.

It's been 7 business days (counting today) since withdrawals resumed, and when they resumed them they estimated it would take several weeks to work through the log.  You people have no patience.

[Bugpowder]

Do you work for Gox or just adulate them from afar?

Explain this:

Not sending wires for a month.
Refusing to refund funds not wired to the trading account.
Ignoring all requests for a clear explanation of what is going on.

Yeah everything's fine - they're just backlogged. Sure dude...

I do not work for Gox.  I've just been around long enough to know that they don't move at the pace most people expect them to move.  Improvements could be made here.

You, however, are exaggerating.  The outage was 2 weeks.  There outage is over, but there is a large backlog of withdrawals that they are working through.  I have not seen any claims that cancelled wires were not made available to trade.  I have seen several claims of the converse (people cancelled withdrawals, bought btc, and then withdrew).  They have already clearly explained the situation with the press releases I linked.

It's been 7 business days (counting today) since withdrawals resumed, and when they resumed them they estimated it would take several weeks to work through the log.  You people have no patience.

But...  wires were de facto suspended since at least 6/14, which was prior to the official suspension.  And nobody, NOBODY has posted to this thread with evidence that a single wire has gone thru since pre 6/14.  So we are over a month now.

[notme]

Do you work for Gox or just adulate them from afar?

Explain this:

Not sending wires for a month.
Refusing to refund funds not wired to the trading account.
Ignoring all requests for a clear explanation of what is going on.

Yeah everything's fine - they're just backlogged. Sure dude...

I do not work for Gox.  I've just been around long enough to know that they don't move at the pace most people expect them to move.  Improvements could be made here.

You, however, are exaggerating.  The outage was 2 weeks.  There outage is over, but there is a large backlog of withdrawals that they are working through.  I have not seen any claims that cancelled wires were not made available to trade.  I have seen several claims of the converse (people cancelled withdrawals, bought btc, and then withdrew).  They have already clearly explained the situation with the press releases I linked.

It's been 7 business days (counting today) since withdrawals resumed, and when they resumed them they estimated it would take several weeks to work through the log.  You people have no patience.

But...  wires were de facto suspended since at least 6/14, which was prior to the official suspension.  And nobody, NOBODY has posted to this thread with evidence that a single wire has gone thru since pre 6/14.  So we are over a month now.

Because this thread is an authoritative source of USD withdrawal records.  I'm done.  Continue to spread your FUD.  I won't interfere anymore.

[pyedpyper]

After a week of daily emails to Mt. Gox demanding that they refund my outstanding wires (from June 17) back to my trading account, I am pleased to announce that they have just done so. I have converted to coin and moved to Bitstamp. I am very happy for this resolution.

I saw a post on this forum of someone sitting with USD 40,000 sitting in limbo for 12 weeks without resolution. I feel for him...

[notme]

After a week of daily emails to Mt. Gox demanding that they refund my outstanding wires (from June 17) back to my trading account, I am pleased to announce that they have just done so. I have converted to coin and moved to Bitstamp. I am very happy for this resolution.

I saw a post on this forum of someone sitting with USD 40,000 sitting in limbo for 12 weeks without resolution. I feel for him...

And this is one reason why it takes them so long to respond.  People send daily emails which results in 10 times the volume to work through in their email queue.  I'm glad (but not surprised) to hear that your issue has been resolved.

[zeroblock]

I do not work for Gox.  I've just been around long enough to know that they don't move at the pace most people expect them to move.  Improvements could be made here.

You, however, are exaggerating.  The outage was 2 weeks.  There outage is over, but there is a large backlog of withdrawals that they are working through.  I have not seen any claims that cancelled wires were not made available to trade.  I have seen several claims of the converse (people cancelled withdrawals, bought btc, and then withdrew).  They have already clearly explained the situation with the press releases I linked.

It's been 7 business days (counting today) since withdrawals resumed, and when they resumed them they estimated it would take several weeks to work through the log.  You people have no patience.

What is happening with Mt.Gox is unprecedented, history is not an indicator of future performance as you are suggesting.  May I remind you that you are talking about a incompetent CEO who told authorities that his business neither exchanged currency nor was a money transmitter.  

"In particular, Karpeles answered no to two important questions: “Do you deal in or exchange currency for your customer?” and “Does your business accept funds from customers and send the funds based on customers’ instructions (Money Transmitter)?”

http://techcrunch.com/2013/05/16/mt-gox-dwolla-account-money-seizure/

I'm sure with his incredible leadership Mt.Gox can handle the avalanche of shit coming their way.  

[Pale Phoenix]

And this is one reason why it takes them so long to respond.  People send daily emails which results in 10 times the volume to work through in their email queue.  I'm glad (but not surprised) to hear that your issue has been resolved.

No offense, but you're starting to sound like Baghdad Bob.

Gox has been extremely derelict in communicating with the people to whom it owes hundreds of thousands of dollars. If they gave satisfactory answers to the first email, customers wouldn't need to pester them over weeks and months. To my knowledge, they never even issued an official statement about the Dwolla matter after the initial, "We don't know anything about it." The other "official" statements have been clear as mud.

Questioning the veracity of their claims is not FUD at this point, it is a legitimate inquiry into the risk of this situation by people with a lot of money on the line. Your suggestion of more "patience" has no place in the world of Bitcoin, because most know that where there is smoke, there is almost certainly fire.

[notme]

I do not work for Gox.  I've just been around long enough to know that they don't move at the pace most people expect them to move.  Improvements could be made here.

You, however, are exaggerating.  The outage was 2 weeks.  There outage is over, but there is a large backlog of withdrawals that they are working through.  I have not seen any claims that cancelled wires were not made available to trade.  I have seen several claims of the converse (people cancelled withdrawals, bought btc, and then withdrew).  They have already clearly explained the situation with the press releases I linked.

It's been 7 business days (counting today) since withdrawals resumed, and when they resumed them they estimated it would take several weeks to work through the log.  You people have no patience.

What is happening with Mt.Gox is unprecedented, history is not an indicator of future performance as you are suggesting.  May I remind you that you are talking about a incompetent CEO who told authorities that his business neither exchanged currency nor was a money transmitter.  

"In particular, Karpeles answered no to two important questions: “Do you deal in or exchange currency for your customer?” and “Does your business accept funds from customers and send the funds based on customers’ instructions (Money Transmitter)?”

http://techcrunch.com/2013/05/16/mt-gox-dwolla-account-money-seizure/

I'm sure with his incredible leadership Mt.Gox can handle the avalanche of shit coming their way.  

Unprecedented huh?
SEPA withdrawals were blocked/delayed for a month or more.
Dwolla withdrawals were blocked/delayed for a month or more (months before the account was finally closed).
They have had several banks accounts closed over the years, including one that lead to a very public court case in France.

And this is one reason why it takes them so long to respond.  People send daily emails which results in 10 times the volume to work through in their email queue.  I'm glad (but not surprised) to hear that your issue has been resolved.

No offense, but you're starting to sound like Baghdad Bob.

Gox has been extremely derelict in communicating with the people to whom it owes hundreds of thousands of dollars. If they gave satisfactory answers to the first email, customers wouldn't need to pester them over weeks and months. To my knowledge, they never even issued an official statement about the Dwolla matter after the initial, "We don't know anything about it." The other "official" statements have been clear as mud.

Questioning the veracity of their claims is not FUD at this point, it is a legitimate inquiry into the risk of this situation by people with a lot of money on the line. Your suggestion of more "patience" has no place in the world of Bitcoin, because most know that where there is smoke, there is almost certainly fire.

Don't worry, I'm not taking anything personally.  Call me whatever names you want.  I understand people are upset about their money.  That said, people should do their due diligence before giving so much money to anyone.  You can't just trust a business because it is a market leader.  Anybody who has investigated the history of MtGox will not be surprised by the recent delays.

This is not the first time there have been issues, and it will very likely not be the last.  Moving as much fiat as MtGox is very difficult to accomplish due to regulations (and worse, uncertainty about regulations).  Banks can't afford to run afoul of the law, so they tend to be very conservative.  Part of standard operating procedure is to set transfer limits for new accounts that can last months.

All threads like this do is create an environment of fear and increase the demand on both the withdrawal systems and the customer support systems.

[Slab Squathrust]

I have been having trouble even getting my account verified.  Definitely quite frustrating especially now that I hear people are having trouble getting their money out.  With the rates of their commissions, there is no way they should have a liquidity problem unless they were playing dirty trying to make a buck on swings, or if they have a large portion of their US reserves in their dwolla account that was seized.  Still you think they would have learned from the hack and crash of 2011 and keep some fiat in a form of cold storage in a trusted bank far from the grips of the US government, especially if there was any concern they may be violating certain money service laws.  All they would need to do then is move money to dwolla as needed.     

I really hope it truly is a backlog and not a pay off friends first as someone suggested earlier.  That has bad news written all over it. 

[zby]

It is impossible to know Mt.Gox's liquidity position at this moment, but there are things we know for certain:

1.) Mt.Gox's US entity, Mutum Signum had its accounts frozen.  More than likely a large portion of their USD revenue was tied up in that Dwolla account.  They may or may not get these funds back. I would expect they would have to get their Money transmitter license in all 50 states before these funds could be released.  That would take at least 12 months and $2M in fees/surety bonds(1)
2.) No one has gotten a wire out for almost a month, if they had they would have claimed the 0.75 BTC bounty.(2)
3.) Bitcoin holders are willing to take a 5-10% cut just to move their BTC out of Mt.Gox.  That's the reason why the spread is so large vs. Bitstamp.(3)(4)
4.) Legal defense is expensive.  They are fighting 2 fronts, one with Coinlab, and the other registering as an money transmitter in all 50 states.  They will lose the case against CoinLab for $75 MM.  Even if the outcome looked more positive, no bank would lend them money given the uncertainty of the outcome of the suit.(5) 
5.) Volume is at January lows, their trading revenue won't be enough to cover both legal fronts and operational costs.(5)
6.) Mt.Gox consistently releases confusing and contradictory information, so their "official" statements have no value. 
7.) Mt.Gox used to exchange liberty reserve dollars.  Any entity touching LR dollars has serious going concern.  I can assume they will have some legal issues with this as well.   

With that being said, there aren't many explanations that fit.  But even if Mt.Gox collapses, you still have rather large markets with Bitstamp, Coinbase, and Btc-e, which should be able to provide enough liquidity/volume until some US exchanges become compliant. 


(1) http://thegenesisblock.com/town-hall-discussion-with-gavin-andresen-and-patrick-murck/
(2) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=251895.0
(3) http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/
(4) http://thegenesisblock.com/bitcoin-mid-year-review-and-outlook/
(5) http://thegenesisblock.com/mt-gox-withdrawal-freeze-driving-significant-liquidity-concerns/

I believe they are trading the price difference between them and other exchanges - this is just one more rule to break.