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Author Topic: why CBOE and CME futures trading may LOWER / SLOW the price of bitcoin.  (Read 855 times)
thecodebear
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December 06, 2017, 01:16:24 PM
 #21

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/leverage.asp

Leverage is playing with money you dont have.

You just borrow it from the house and put it in some asset.

In a bear market, leverage is used to short positions quickly.

But as it happens with gold, the house need to hold the asset in custody so that shorting would affect its price.

Notice the constant pump recently, only green candles and no correction. This is not the behaviour of our usual whales.

This is the behaviour of someone who received a green light to buy and is covering a lot of positions, rising the price up. In other words, the hedge funds themselves are buying bitcoin to hold it in custody, as digital gold.

However, the difference here is that most gold is held in custody, by States, by banks and stock markets, whereas bitcoin is hodled by its users. Most of the bitcoins are not on the exchanges, and the limited supply keeps the price rising.

Now, lets imagine a hedge fund buy one million dollars of bitcoins in Bitstamp, for example (I dont know if it is the fund or CME itself who buys it, but lets suppose its the fund). They hold it in custody, then bet for a fall in CME, using 10x leverage, that is, they borrow 9 million dollars and bet on half the current price.

Then, they dump their coins in Bitstamp, for half the price they bought for. The weak hands panic and sell their coins, some hodlers get out of their hideouts and throw some of their coins too. The price drops to half, the fund win the bet, and get 10 million dollars. They can use one of these to buy bitcoin again, so the price will pump one more time, the same way its pumping now, only green candles.

Now, I doubt one million dollars would make a difference, but these funds have millions at their disposal.

I dont know if the whales know about such mechanisms, but people should be informed about what the sharks can do using their instruments. They can margin-trade with higher values than in any bitcoin exchange, and they will settle it in cash. However, someone needs to buy the supply. Limiting the supply might reduce the shorting effects, and those funds can lose their bets and get rekt, but for this people should be hodling, even in the face of a quick fall.







You supposition relies on the price crashing down to whatever the try to sell it at. It doesn't matter if they set a sell order at half the price, it has to go through the entire order book to get down that far. Or even if it did, people would buy it all up extremely quickly. As we've seen in the past two corrections, which came all the way back up to hitting ATHs after one week! Also you gloss over your point that they are selling their bitcoins for half price! So they're definitely losing money, in the hope (read: risk!) that they can crash the price enough to gain money on some leveraged futures contract (btw do these futures exchanges even offer leverage?) and if they fail guess what they don't just lose half the money they used on the bitcoin, they end up losing wayyy more money than they spent since in your example they leveraged 10x!

That would be an insane risk to take. Now what they might do is buy bitcoin, wait a while until they've made good profit, and then try this. But then still the price will keep going up since all these investors have to buy up and wait to make profit before trying this. Because if they fail they would want to at least have the profits from their bitcoin offset the losses from their futures failure.



And as far as your bolded part, judging by what coinbase has said, there's probably been well over a million new people who have gotten into bitcoin just in the past 5 weeks or so. You ever think that maybe the huge influx of new money coming in could be responsible for a lot of the huge rise in price? Not to mention the fact that your claim that it keeps on rising with no correction is entirely false as we've had two corrections in the past month!
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fabiorem
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December 06, 2017, 01:42:43 PM
Last edit: December 06, 2017, 01:58:56 PM by fabiorem
 #22

So they're definitely losing money, in the hope (read: risk!) that they can crash the price enough to gain money on some leveraged futures contract (btw do these futures exchanges even offer leverage?) and if they fail guess what they don't just lose half the money they used on the bitcoin, they end up losing wayyy more money than they spent since in your example they leveraged 10x!


No, because they are gambling that the price would go down, so they will receive 10x what they sell, which, if they sell for half of what they paid first, would actually be 5x of what they buy.

In leverage they borrow money from CME, and use it to speculate that the price will go down, in those kind of self-fulfilling "prophecies". If they are buying bitcoins right now, they just dump it right before the contract expires, take the damage from the bitcoins sold, and the profits from the contract, which is made entirely in cash.

But this will only affect the price if people panic, since most of the coins are not on the exchanges, contrary to gold which is held in custody by the government. Hence the need to inform people about the mechanism, so that they prepare psychologically for it.

I know there are many new users joining Coinbase, but we dont know if most of the money are coming from them or from those institutional investors, who are buying bitcoins to dump it and take profits from gambling in futures.

However, as they short it, they will pump it again, even more so this time because they will have even more leverage. They will rinse and repeat this process using borrowed money. So expect a rise to 25k in January, maybe 70k in March.
thecodebear
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December 06, 2017, 02:18:20 PM
 #23

So they're definitely losing money, in the hope (read: risk!) that they can crash the price enough to gain money on some leveraged futures contract (btw do these futures exchanges even offer leverage?) and if they fail guess what they don't just lose half the money they used on the bitcoin, they end up losing wayyy more money than they spent since in your example they leveraged 10x!


No, because they are gambling that the price would go down, so they will receive 10x what they sell, which, if they sell for half of what they paid first, would actually be 5x of what they buy.

In leverage they borrow money from CME, and use it to speculate that the price will go down, in those kind of self-fulfilling "prophecies". If they are buying bitcoins right now, they just dump it right before the contract expires, take the damage from the bitcoins sold, and the profits from the contract, which is made entirely in cash.

But this will only affect the price if people panic, since most of the coins are not on the exchanges, contrary to gold which is held in custody by the government. Hence the need to inform people about the mechanism, so that they prepare psychologically for it.

I know there are many new users joining Coinbase, but we dont know if most of the money are coming from them or from those institutional investors, who are buying bitcoins to dump it and take profits from gambling in futures.

However, as they short it, they will pump it again, even more so this time because they will have even more leverage. They will rinse and repeat this process using borrowed money. So expect a rise to 25k in January, maybe 70k in March.


No hey I get what you are saying. But no matter how much they leverage, they will only make money if they are able to crash it down to below whatever their futures short price is. If it even just barely misses the price of their short they lose a TON of money, especially if they're using leverage. And the rapidly increasing adoption of Bitcoin isn't gonna make it any easier for them to crash the price. Corrections recently have only lasted a couple of days before the price rebounds and hits new ATHs by a week after the start of the correction. Now sure you could say well that's because you think Wall St has been buying on the dips. Well they will still be buying on the dips when futures goes live because they are all gonna have different targets for shorting the price, different timelines, so they're gonna have to stock up consistently.

But I do agree with your last statement. Whether or not they attempt this strategy and whether or not they fail and lose a ton of money or succeed and make a lot of money, the price will just keep going higher. If they do try to do this if anything it would just make Bitcoin even more volatile than it's been! Which would be funny since people think futures would somehow make it less volatile.
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December 06, 2017, 02:19:36 PM
 #24

Quote
"The CME Group will, in the first few weeks of operations, be limited to initiating trades with an initial margin of 35 percent on its bitcoin futures exchange. It will use a daily price from the CME CF Bitcoin Reference Rate, which will use prices from various cryptocurrency exchanges, namely GDAX, Kraken, ItBit, and Bitstamp."

Hardly a concern in the first few weeks at least.
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December 06, 2017, 02:22:18 PM
 #25

And the rapidly increasing adoption of Bitcoin isn't gonna make it any easier for them to crash the price. Corrections recently have only lasted a couple of days before the price rebounds and hits new ATHs by a week after the start of the correction.

This is a phase. And all phases peter out eventually. There'll be peaks and troughs of hype. We're at the peakiest peak so far. There will be a run downhill eventually until the next one kicks off. Perhaps one day there will be an Eternal September but even then it'll be playable.
thecodebear
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December 06, 2017, 02:51:06 PM
 #26

And the rapidly increasing adoption of Bitcoin isn't gonna make it any easier for them to crash the price. Corrections recently have only lasted a couple of days before the price rebounds and hits new ATHs by a week after the start of the correction.

This is a phase. And all phases peter out eventually. There'll be peaks and troughs of hype. We're at the peakiest peak so far. There will be a run downhill eventually until the next one kicks off. Perhaps one day there will be an Eternal September but even then it'll be playable.


Who says we're at a peak right now?

And you think rapid adoption of Bitcoin is a phase? It's not a phase. It is the long term trend that has been going on since the first Bitcoin exchange. User adoption is still tiny on the global scale. This "phase" has a lonnnggggg way to go still. It will end when the market matures likely in the billions of bitcoin users.

I'm not saying they won't try to play. I'm saying with all the new money coming in all the time, its gonna be extremely hard to win the shorting game they may try to play. Sure they can win if they time everything correctly. But each investor isn't going to be able to control the market, because even if they buy a lot they will only have a very tiny amount of the market. This isn't like gold where banks already control the supply. And this isn't a mature market where growth is a few percent a year. Growth is exploding so to short Bitcoin they are going to have to fight against all that growth. If they try to short Bitcoin $2000 but it has appreciated $2000 since they bought their future short they're gonna have to fight against all those gains plus the amount they wanted to short, and in a market where people are all too eager to buy up a low current price that was a high price just a short time ago it's gonna be very dicey to try to short this game. And sure if the price happens to drop below their short price during a correction while their future contract is still open, they could try to trade it away to take their profits, but that involves having to sell it to someone who thinks the price is gonna keep falling, and anyone who watches the bitcoin market knows that is a surefire way to lose money so selling shorted contracts early is gonna be hard. It's gonna be hard to find the next greater fool to buy up a short from you on an exploding asset!

Also there are limits being put on traders of futures. There is a limit on how many futures each investor can hold at one time, which is intended to stop a big investor who wants to corner the market.
gentlemand
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December 06, 2017, 02:55:42 PM
 #27

Who says we're at a peak right now?

And you think rapid adoption of Bitcoin is a phase? It's not a phase. It is the long term trend that has been going on since the first Bitcoin exchange. User adoption is still tiny on the global scale. This "phase" has a lonnnggggg way to go still. It will end when the market matures likely in the billions of bitcoin users.

There will be a short term peak, even if this isn't it.

And 2014/15 certainly did not feel like a whole lot of adoption to me. It was a blip in the long run but it was a monster when we were in it. Professional shorters don't look at grander arcs nor do they care nor should they. They look at what they can play with in the immediate future.
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December 06, 2017, 03:52:32 PM
 #28

CBOE CEO Edward Tilly daring Jamie Dimon to take the short side of Bitcoin futures trading! Lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lyf7ybUNFU4

Also, I liked this quote:

Quote
"[after launch]... I think we will be building up liquidity in the days and weeks and months..."

 Shocked   Grin
thecodebear
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December 06, 2017, 04:08:39 PM
 #29

Who says we're at a peak right now?

And you think rapid adoption of Bitcoin is a phase? It's not a phase. It is the long term trend that has been going on since the first Bitcoin exchange. User adoption is still tiny on the global scale. This "phase" has a lonnnggggg way to go still. It will end when the market matures likely in the billions of bitcoin users.

There will be a short term peak, even if this isn't it.

And 2014/15 certainly did not feel like a whole lot of adoption to me. It was a blip in the long run but it was a monster when we were in it. Professional shorters don't look at grander arcs nor do they care nor should they. They look at what they can play with in the immediate future.


Well short term peaks happen all the time. I'm not arguing against that. Just since this spring there have been short term peaks leading into corrections in June, September, early November, late November. Of course they will continue. Recently these short term peaks have only lasted a week. I'm sure we'll get some longer ones of a month or two like we had earlier this year, but that is healthy for the market, doesn't mean the growth this year has just been a phase that will soon end.
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