Fees and payments

[thecodebear]

One of the big features of Bitcoin is that it is cheaper than paying with credit cards. Of course currently the Bitcoin fees are very high since it needs scaling so its only cheaper right now if you're buying a couple hundred dollars or more worth of stuff.

Anyways, businesses have hidden the credit card fees from consumers by pricing them in to products and eating the fees. With Bitcoin though, the sender pays the fee. Even if the fee is a lot lower than credit card fees, you're still spending more when using Bitcoin because the the sender pays the fee. This needs to change since businesses already price in fees. I've never bought anything with Bitcoin, so maybe this is already done by newegg and overstock, etc, but do you think retailers will subtract the fee paid from the price of the item when buying with Bitcoin? Do retailers do this now? If this doesn't happen, even if fees go way back down, this would be a terrible user experience if you have to pay a fee on top of the cost of a product when compared to paying with credit card where the fee included in that same sale price.

[jseverson]

It's a valid concern especially with fees being as high as they are. It's true that retailers typically "hide" a credit card charge on top of the item's price so they don't lose profit over credit card fees. It remains there even if you happen to pay with cash, so I presume it will also stay there when you use Bitcoin. In the end, you pay more than what you would have paid in cash or credit card, because they will not refund you the fees. I have honestly never looked at it this way.

The only solution I see is for the fees to drop enough such that paying it would be near negligible. Other than that, stores could offer a Bitcoin discount, similar to how some stores offer cash discounts. Either way, I'm sure the industry will be able to develop a practice everyone would be able to accept once paying with Bitcoin starts becoming widespread.

[illinest]

One of the big features of Bitcoin is that it is cheaper than paying with credit cards. Of course currently the Bitcoin fees are very high since it needs scaling so its only cheaper right now if you're buying a couple hundred dollars or more worth of stuff.

I disagree. I think that some businesses promoted cheap fees or free transactions as a primary feature of Bitcoin, and years ago, that was okay because Bitcoin's network was small and demand for confirmed transactions was low.

Now that network demand is high, Bitcoin's use as deflationary money trumps any desires for cheap payment systems. There are any number of those -- Venmo, Paypal, Square, credit cards. It's clear that investors are okay with increasing fees, and that's probably because most of them see Bitcoin as digital gold rather than the next Paypal.

I've never bought anything with Bitcoin, so maybe this is already done by newegg and overstock, etc, but do you think retailers will subtract the fee paid from the price of the item when buying with Bitcoin? Do retailers do this now? If this doesn't happen, even if fees go way back down, this would be a terrible user experience if you have to pay a fee on top of the cost of a product when compared to paying with credit card where the fee included in that same sale price.

Bitpay charges a network fee (usually ~ 0.0002 BTC) on top of the miners fee that consumers need to pay. They started doing that a couple months ago. It's annoying, but I suspect that consumers can live with it at a time when the price of BTC doubles in a matter of weeks.

[Turkish88]

Very big transaction fees for the moment. But this fees big if you sending little payments, and if you send some bitcoins transaction is truly low, because transaction in btc network dont depend on quantity of payment. transaction fees depend on transaction size in kb

[kryptqnick]

One of the big features of Bitcoin is that it is cheaper than paying with credit cards. ...
Anyways, businesses have hidden the credit card fees from consumers by pricing them in to products and eating the fees. With Bitcoin though, the sender pays the fee. Even if the fee is a lot lower than credit card fees, you're still spending more when using Bitcoin because the the sender pays the fee. This needs to change since businesses already price in fees. ..

That depends a lot on which credit cards you actually mean. In my country when you pay with credit card the fee can be from zero to 3%, I guess, whereas btc fees can go up to 5% or so.
If you mean the prices of products, though, then why are you saying the fee is already there? People who pay with cash also pay the fee you've mentioned, right? Yet it wouldn't make sense for them to compensate what credit card holders should pay.
Moreover, if some cryptocurrency gets highly adopted for everyday life (and I think it's pretty obvious that bitcoin will not) then taxes will be payed in it as well, just like with fiat.

[thecodebear]

One of the big features of Bitcoin is that it is cheaper than paying with credit cards. ...
Anyways, businesses have hidden the credit card fees from consumers by pricing them in to products and eating the fees. With Bitcoin though, the sender pays the fee. Even if the fee is a lot lower than credit card fees, you're still spending more when using Bitcoin because the the sender pays the fee. This needs to change since businesses already price in fees. ..

That depends a lot on which credit cards you actually mean. In my country when you pay with credit card the fee can be from zero to 3%, I guess, whereas btc fees can go up to 5% or so.
If you mean the prices of products, though, then why are you saying the fee is already there? People who pay with cash also pay the fee you've mentioned, right? Yet it wouldn't make sense for them to compensate what credit card holders should pay.
Moreover, if some cryptocurrency gets highly adopted for everyday life (and I think it's pretty obvious that bitcoin will not) then taxes will be payed in it as well, just like with fiat.

Maybe you're not getting what I'm saying. Since most people pay for things with credit cards, instead of adding the fee on top of the sale price when people use credit cards, they just hide the fee in the price of item itself. So you pay the fee whether you pay with CC, Cash, or anything else. But Bitcoin charges the sender a fee right, which would be on top of the CC fee thats already added to the price of the item. A big feature of Bitcoin is it has lower fees than credit cards. So the Bitcoin fee should likewise not be added on top of an item but included in the price itself. The way to do this would be at checkout a merchant could have a standard transaction fee that it subtracts from the price of the time, in that way with Bitcoin you still just pay the price of the item, with the fee built into that, instead of paying for the price of the item and adding a fee on top of that. If you add any fee on top of the price of an item for Bitcoin purchases then Bitcoin is literally more expensive to use than any other form of payment. The cheapness of it only makes sense when it is priced into the item. And there's no reason payment client software couldn't just add the fee into the normal sale price so there is no fee on top of it.

Obviously I'm talking about when Bitcoin achieves scaling so that fees go way back down. But I don't ever see Bitcoin being used much for payment unless this is addressed. Why would anyone pay extra to pay with Bitcoin? I certainly wouldn't. Even if the fee is back down to 10 cents, you do that for every single everyday purchase and over time that's gonna add up to a lot of money lost.

[thecodebear]

One of the big features of Bitcoin is that it is cheaper than paying with credit cards. Of course currently the Bitcoin fees are very high since it needs scaling so its only cheaper right now if you're buying a couple hundred dollars or more worth of stuff.

I disagree. I think that some businesses promoted cheap fees or free transactions as a primary feature of Bitcoin, and years ago, that was okay because Bitcoin's network was small and demand for confirmed transactions was low.

Now that network demand is high, Bitcoin's use as deflationary money trumps any desires for cheap payment systems. There are any number of those -- Venmo, Paypal, Square, credit cards. It's clear that investors are okay with increasing fees, and that's probably because most of them see Bitcoin as digital gold rather than the next Paypal.

I've never bought anything with Bitcoin, so maybe this is already done by newegg and overstock, etc, but do you think retailers will subtract the fee paid from the price of the item when buying with Bitcoin? Do retailers do this now? If this doesn't happen, even if fees go way back down, this would be a terrible user experience if you have to pay a fee on top of the cost of a product when compared to paying with credit card where the fee included in that same sale price.

Bitpay charges a network fee (usually ~ 0.0002 BTC) on top of the miners fee that consumers need to pay. They started doing that a couple months ago. It's annoying, but I suspect that consumers can live with it at a time when the price of BTC doubles in a matter of weeks.

Right it is clear that investors are fine with large fees right now because we're not using Bitcoin for payments. I'm talking about when Bitcoin has scaling solutions in place and fees go back down (or just using the fees of second layer solutions). I'm specifically talking about using Bitcoin for payment, so using it not for payment (just investing in it) doesn't have anything to do with this. I'm talking about the user experience and fees related to buying things with bitcoin. I'm not talking about the high fees we have right now.

[LeGaulois]

One of the big features of Bitcoin is that it is cheaper than paying with credit cards. Of course currently the Bitcoin fees are very high since it needs scaling so its only cheaper right now if you're buying a couple hundred dollars or more worth of stuff.

Anyways, businesses have hidden the credit card fees from consumers by pricing them in to products and eating the fees. With Bitcoin though, the sender pays the fee. Even if the fee is a lot lower than credit card fees, you're still spending more when using Bitcoin because the the sender pays the fee. This needs to change since businesses already price in fees. I've never bought anything with Bitcoin, so maybe this is already done by newegg and overstock, etc, but do you think retailers will subtract the fee paid from the price of the item when buying with Bitcoin? Do retailers do this now? If this doesn't happen, even if fees go way back down, this would be a terrible user experience if you have to pay a fee on top of the cost of a product when compared to paying with credit card where the fee included in that same sale price.

The fees from credits have never been hidden, it's something everyone is aware of, or at least they should be. You can't expect to go to the supermarket to buy tomatoes and see the price listed with the fees, VAT, origin, etc. Imagine:
3 kilo of tomatoes 5$
5.10$ if you pay with a card
5.20$ if you pay with a cheque
5.05$ if you pay with a banknote

it's to totally not doable.
The fees to process a payment using a card is still far cheaper than the Bitcoin fees, it's just some cents usually.

[mjnick01]

The time will come when electricity, home and water bills will come
bitcoin can be compensated
You will not get tired of going to the store or branch just to pay
to btc just link and get the code instant paid for it
it is easy to use
more bitcoin to come

[Thanasis]

One of the big features of Bitcoin is that it is cheaper than paying with credit cards. Of course currently the Bitcoin fees are very high since it needs scaling so its only cheaper right now if you're buying a couple hundred dollars or more worth of stuff.

Anyways, businesses have hidden the credit card fees from consumers by pricing them in to products and eating the fees. With Bitcoin though, the sender pays the fee. Even if the fee is a lot lower than credit card fees, you're still spending more when using Bitcoin because the the sender pays the fee. This needs to change since businesses already price in fees. I've never bought anything with Bitcoin, so maybe this is already done by newegg and overstock, etc, but do you think retailers will subtract the fee paid from the price of the item when buying with Bitcoin? Do retailers do this now? If this doesn't happen, even if fees go way back down, this would be a terrible user experience if you have to pay a fee on top of the cost of a product when compared to paying with credit card where the fee included in that same sale price.

For now the bitcoin transaction fee is high but the transaction fee was decreased by good rate when compared to few years back so in couple of years the transaction fee will be decreased much more so then we can afford it to pay for buying products since the credit card purchases having hidden fee so it is okay to pay little fee for bitcoin transaction.

[thecodebear]

One of the big features of Bitcoin is that it is cheaper than paying with credit cards. Of course currently the Bitcoin fees are very high since it needs scaling so its only cheaper right now if you're buying a couple hundred dollars or more worth of stuff.

Anyways, businesses have hidden the credit card fees from consumers by pricing them in to products and eating the fees. With Bitcoin though, the sender pays the fee. Even if the fee is a lot lower than credit card fees, you're still spending more when using Bitcoin because the the sender pays the fee. This needs to change since businesses already price in fees. I've never bought anything with Bitcoin, so maybe this is already done by newegg and overstock, etc, but do you think retailers will subtract the fee paid from the price of the item when buying with Bitcoin? Do retailers do this now? If this doesn't happen, even if fees go way back down, this would be a terrible user experience if you have to pay a fee on top of the cost of a product when compared to paying with credit card where the fee included in that same sale price.

The fees from credits have never been hidden, it's something everyone is aware of, or at least they should be. You can't expect to go to the supermarket to buy tomatoes and see the price listed with the fees, VAT, origin, etc. Imagine:
3 kilo of tomatoes 5$
5.10$ if you pay with a card
5.20$ if you pay with a cheque
5.05$ if you pay with a banknote

it's to totally not doable.
The fees to process a payment using a card is still far cheaper than the Bitcoin fees, it's just some cents usually.

You seem to be thinking I'm saying the exact opposite of what I'm actually saying. I'm not saying the cost is different depending on how you pay. I'm saying the cost ISN'T different no matter how you pay. It's always the same cost. Because merchants have priced the fees of credit cards into the sale price. But with Bitcoin the cost IS different, because you have to pay a fee on top of the cost. So I'm saying payment software for Bitcoin should incorporate the fee into the price instead of having to pay the fee on top of the price. So that you don't get a situation where you pay $5 with anything except Bitcoin, but with Bitcoin you pay $5 plus however much the transaction fee is.

When you buy $5 of something with a credit card the merchant loses ~3% of that to the credit card company. It should be the same for Bitcoin. When you buy $5 of something you should pay a transaction fee on top of that, the merchant should just lose the transaction fee to the bitcoin miners, so that you still are only paying $5. Obviously for small purchases this isn't possible until Bitcoin figures out its scaling solutions. Because then the fee should be way less than the ~3% credit card fee, which is why Bitcoin will be good for businesses because they will lose less money on each purchase. Even now with average transaction fees of $3-$6 dollars as long as you're paying >$200 it would still be cheaper for the merchant than paying with a credit card. Though of course right now the merchant doesn't pay the fee the user does, and that is a terrible experience for the user! Because then Bitcoin users are just paying more for everything!

[LeGaulois]

So I'm saying payment software for Bitcoin should incorporate the fee into the price instead of having to pay the fee on top of the price

You forgot to consider that, basically with Bitcoin, you are supposed to set the fees yourself. How do you want a software knows what fees you agree to pay? If the fees were fixed then, for example, merchants could include the fees into the sales, let's 0.05 fees included (0.001BTC).
However what if the buyer is ready to purchase an item but he wants to pay 0.0005BTC because it may be enough

[SamReomo]

It is very sad but true. if someone is trying to buy something low priced then the Bitcoin fees are way more than credit card fees. However, if you someone is trying to buy something high priced then Bitcoin fees are way cheaper than the credit card fees. When it comes to Bitcoin, the consumer is the one who will pay the fees even if the seller is negotiable.

Bitcoin should deduct less fees in order to be more usable, and it will be even more great if the fees become less than 1% overall. Who knows that in future there might not be such high fees as of today, and there might be chances when someone could buy low-priced things with Bitcoins without rethinking about the fees.

[rockyfeller]

One of the big features of Bitcoin is that it is cheaper than paying with credit cards. Of course currently the Bitcoin fees are very high since it needs scaling so its only cheaper right now if you're buying a couple hundred dollars or more worth of stuff.

Anyways, businesses have hidden the credit card fees from consumers by pricing them in to products and eating the fees. With Bitcoin though, the sender pays the fee. Even if the fee is a lot lower than credit card fees, you're still spending more when using Bitcoin because the the sender pays the fee. This needs to change since businesses already price in fees. I've never bought anything with Bitcoin, so maybe this is already done by newegg and overstock, etc, but do you think retailers will subtract the fee paid from the price of the item when buying with Bitcoin? Do retailers do this now? If this doesn't happen, even if fees go way back down, this would be a terrible user experience if you have to pay a fee on top of the cost of a product when compared to paying with credit card where the fee included in that same sale price.

Most of the transactions now are getting bigger and fees from blockchain is competitive enough I tjough we're going to have a low fees. Eventually the price of btc is going up. That's whay I have it when btc hits 20k or more coz the fees are getting higher

[ClarksonI]

it's the fees and duration of transactions that will prevent bitcoin from evolving I think

[Youghoor]

False, credit cards are usually taking 0% fees of whatever you buy, the only "fee" that you have to pay is the Anual Maintenance, and yes, that is extremely expensive.

The same applies if you go to an international ATM to withdraw some money, they will fuck your ass with their five dollars fees.

One of the big features of Bitcoin is that it is cheaper than paying with credit cards.

And bitcoin fees are high too,  but if you are usually sending more than 10 payments a day to different people, tell me, would it be profitable for you as a bussiness? I think that it would not.

[thecodebear]

So I'm saying payment software for Bitcoin should incorporate the fee into the price instead of having to pay the fee on top of the price

You forgot to consider that, basically with Bitcoin, you are supposed to set the fees yourself. How do you want a software knows what fees you agree to pay? If the fees were fixed then, for example, merchants could include the fees into the sales, let's 0.05 fees included (0.001BTC).
However what if the buyer is ready to purchase an item but he wants to pay 0.0005BTC because it may be enough

Well I mean that stuff would be set there right when you are making the transaction. So if it's online presumably the website would set the fee based on what the average fees are at that time, and it could deduct the fee from the price so the fee is incorporated into the price, just like with credit card fees.

[pooya87]

right now bitcoin is not exactly considered a payment method aka a currency. it doesn't matter what the fees are, even when they were 1 US cent it was not considered as a currency by majority of people.
that is sad because the only reason why bitcoin has value is because it is a currency, but since bitcoin price continues rising people want it more as an investment than a  currency. nobody cares about the high fees when they make a lot of profit every day. when you buy $100 worth of bitcoin and your $100 is worth $130 in a couple of weeks, you don't mind paying a $4 fee even for purchases.

additionally the merchants mostly have bitcoin as a secondary option that is not used that often.
maybe in a couple of years with more stability, hopefully some solution for scaling and more adoption we can see shops and people treat bitcoin more as a currency. only then you can start thinking about the "hidden fees" you mentioned here and do some different calculation, so for example those who pay with bitcoin receive some sort of discount.

[ir.yance]

One of the big features of Bitcoin is that it is cheaper than paying with credit cards. Of course currently the Bitcoin fees are very high since it needs scaling so its only cheaper right now if you're buying a couple hundred dollars or more worth of stuff.

Anyways, businesses have hidden the credit card fees from consumers by pricing them in to products and eating the fees. With Bitcoin though, the sender pays the fee. Even if the fee is a lot lower than credit card fees, you're still spending more when using Bitcoin because the the sender pays the fee. This needs to change since businesses already price in fees. I've never bought anything with Bitcoin, so maybe this is already done by newegg and overstock, etc, but do you think retailers will subtract the fee paid from the price of the item when buying with Bitcoin? Do retailers do this now? If this doesn't happen, even if fees go way back down, this would be a terrible user experience if you have to pay a fee on top of the cost of a product when compared to paying with credit card where the fee included in that same sale price.

The current transaction cost is huge. But this fee is great if you send a little payment.

[Boybugwal760820]

Fees using bitcoin is much minimal compared as compared to using banks in sending large amount of money, fees is just nothing compared to the benefits you got in bitcoin such as sending large amount of money in any place in the world free from tax and with great anonymity outside the prying eyes of government authority.