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Author Topic: Had a conversation with my Democrat friend today.  (Read 4190 times)
Sovereign
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July 04, 2011, 02:18:21 PM
 #41

I explained Bitcoin to my 72 year old father several weeks ago.

His response?

He bought 1000 of them.

Dude, if you could make a youtube vid explaining bitcoin to people, that'd be great.

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MoonShadow
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July 04, 2011, 02:24:28 PM
 #42

I explained Bitcoin to my 72 year old father several weeks ago.

His response?

He bought 1000 of them.

Dude, if you could make a youtube vid explaining bitcoin to people, that'd be great.

Better yet, have him help you make a vid explaining bitcoin to his generational peers.  Retirees control an outsized amount of investement income as compared to the Internet generation that dominates this forum. 

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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July 05, 2011, 11:33:04 AM
 #43

Programmers may be force multiplier and harbringer of extreme efficiency, but we have to relies on auto mechanics, laundrymat owner, and nail saloon for our girlfriends.
We bitcoiners are specialist in bitcoin but will be ignorant about pretty much anything else, except perhaps programming and some entrepeneurship.

True but if you present "us" with something new we will try to understand it so we are not as ignorant anymore.

The stupid masses on the other hand will look at a topic, shake their head because it so complicated/does not fit into their reality  and listed to another idiot who will explain the issue to them. Problem is that the "other idiot" tends to have ulterior motives so stupid people  will stay ignorant.
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July 05, 2011, 12:21:19 PM
 #44

I explained bitcoins to my mother. Smiley

I have been ordered to run 2 GHash for her Angry

She might not get the freedom side of it but she sure hates banks. Grin


Every friend of mine (that has a GPU) is now installing GUIMiner and some that don’t are just having a dabble for fun trying to buy high sell low and doing a good job of it atm lol bad time to start playing with it I guess.

I fell down that dam rabbit hole and I didn’t look for it. I'm sure as hell going to drag as many as I can down it with me.

Gold a silver yep that what all the others seem to think that I talk to ouside of my close freinds.

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July 08, 2011, 05:54:06 AM
 #45

There are three things backing the US dollar:
1. Trade in oil.  Need to have dollars to buy it (although that's now less so than in the recent past)
2. USA is the world's largest economy.  You'll get dollars for your goods.
3. Guns.  Lots of guns.  With nukes on top.  World's best military buys a lot of respect.

I would say that ultimately reason #3 is the part that is holding all together. Without the army the dollar would collapse. Oil is still sold in dollars because the USA has the biggest military, and the USA economy is still working after so much abuse only because it has the world reserve currency that again is thanks to the military. There is a reason why the USA has bases all over the world and the rest of the countries dont.

Legal tender law creates a monopoly for the dollar. The law is enforced by guns. You are correct.

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July 08, 2011, 08:07:54 AM
 #46

for the most part, i am a democrat (and a social democrat at that). that said, i also have some veiws that are considered conservative (heavily pro gun and pro defense), and i believe in a few libertarian principles as well (im against eminent domain and against criminalization of victimless crimes)


but none of this has anything to do with BTC.

no single political veiwpoint has a monopoly on the truth or on BTC.

that is all.

Welcome in the rabbit hole brother. First goes the current monetary system, then comes monetary reform, then you abandon all hope that government will ever not sell out to the banking system. Then goes gun law, then goes eminent domain, then goes the war on drugs, then the one on terror.

Eventually you understand the pricing mechanism and how a the truly free parts of the market are what builds things like cars and develops medicines and assigns resources more efficiently than any central plan could over the long run and the final vestiges of socialism appear to you as nothing more than envy based ranting.

I'll see you when you get there Smiley

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Sjalq
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July 08, 2011, 08:23:23 AM
 #47

I just want to lulz at you Americanos for a bit. I'm not even from your country and I've seen what the federal government's finances look like.

Social security is broke and broken as are the medical programs. The official debt in your country is now so high that if the interest rates were to begin to rise the total federal tax income could soon be spend on nothing but interest payments, no cops, no military, no nothing else. Your politicians seem like children playing with matches on top of a mountain of dynamite.

You folks need to snap out of calling each other names before you start a nuclear war with yourselves as your government turns on itself and on your people! The situation is EXTREMELY dire!

Cheesy mine mine mine mine mine mine mine Cheesy
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July 08, 2011, 08:27:13 AM
 #48

I just want to lulz at you Americanos for a bit. I'm not even from your country and I've seen what the federal government's finances look like.

Social security is broke and broken as are the medical programs. The official debt in your country is now so high that if the interest rates were to begin to rise the total federal tax income could soon be spend on nothing but interest payments, no cops, no military, no nothing else. Your politicians seem like children playing with matches on top of a mountain of dynamite.

You folks need to snap out of calling each other names before you start a nuclear war with yourselves as your government turns on itself and on your people! The situation is EXTREMELY dire!

Yup, yup...

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hugolp
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July 08, 2011, 08:36:52 AM
 #49

I just want to lulz at you Americanos for a bit. I'm not even from your country and I've seen what the federal government's finances look like.

Social security is broke and broken as are the medical programs. The official debt in your country is now so high that if the interest rates were to begin to rise the total federal tax income could soon be spend on nothing but interest payments, no cops, no military, no nothing else. Your politicians seem like children playing with matches on top of a mountain of dynamite.

You folks need to snap out of calling each other names before you start a nuclear war with yourselves as your government turns on itself and on your people! The situation is EXTREMELY dire!

While the situation of the USA government is bad, the affirmation that the income tax will all go into paying the debt is heavily misleading. In fact that is not a problem at all. WHAT?!?!? Yes, its not a problem and its easy to understand why: The bigger holder of USA gov debt is the Federal Reserve. And the interests payed to the Fed are returned to the government, so in reality those interest dont matter. The government pay them and then gets them back. No big deal. The interests that you have to look at are the rest of the interests (always discounting the interest payed to the Fed).

The federal government wont default. As long as the government can keep printing money (the fed monetizing the government debt) it wont default. Its impossible. What will happen is that the monstruous monetization that is needed to wash up the debt will create heavy price inflation. The people will pay the government debt by higher prices.
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July 08, 2011, 08:59:07 AM
 #50

I just want to lulz at you Americanos for a bit. I'm not even from your country and I've seen what the federal government's finances look like.

Social security is broke and broken as are the medical programs. The official debt in your country is now so high that if the interest rates were to begin to rise the total federal tax income could soon be spend on nothing but interest payments, no cops, no military, no nothing else. Your politicians seem like children playing with matches on top of a mountain of dynamite.

You folks need to snap out of calling each other names before you start a nuclear war with yourselves as your government turns on itself and on your people! The situation is EXTREMELY dire!

While the situation of the USA government is bad, the affirmation that the income tax will all go into paying the debt is heavily misleading. In fact that is not a problem at all. WHAT?!?!? Yes, its not a problem and its easy to understand why: The bigger holder of USA gov debt is the Federal Reserve. And the interests payed to the Fed are returned to the government, so in reality those interest dont matter. The government pay them and then gets them back. No big deal. The interests that you have to look at are the rest of the interests (always discounting the interest payed to the Fed).

The federal government wont default. As long as the government can keep printing money (the fed monetizing the government debt) it wont default. Its impossible. What will happen is that the monstruous monetization that is needed to wash up the debt will create heavy price inflation. The people will pay the government debt by higher prices.

I mention your interest payments to tax income situation because if it were to return to its historical level it will break you. It will not because as you say the fed will credit the government. It is already doing this for about 33% of the entire budget! Why are you not terrified!? Funding 33% (then 50% then 90%) of all government spending will not lead to heavy price inflation, it will lead to a total loss of confidence and hyperinflation.

Social security payments go to fund federal expenditure items. Social security holds an astronomical amount of treasury debt as a result. The govt can not pay social security in worthless devalued dollars (1/10th to 1/1000th its current value) without a very adverse reaction.

The government has lost control and it must bow out and let the economy fix itself. If it is not going to go willingly then you must not be under the impression that something unpleasant of historical proportions is about to happen.

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hugolp
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July 08, 2011, 09:35:47 AM
 #51

I mention your interest payments to tax income situation because if it were to return to its historical level it will break you. It will not because as you say the fed will credit the government. It is already doing this for about 33% of the entire budget! Why are you not terrified!? Funding 33% (then 50% then 90%) of all government spending will not lead to heavy price inflation, it will lead to a total loss of confidence and hyperinflation.

Social security payments go to fund federal expenditure items. Social security holds an astronomical amount of treasury debt as a result. The govt can not pay social security in worthless devalued dollars (1/10th to 1/1000th its current value) without a very adverse reaction.

The government has lost control and it must bow out and let the economy fix itself. If it is not going to go willingly then you must not be under the impression that something unpleasant of historical proportions is about to happen.

1. Im not from the USA.

2. You are 100% right in this second comment. The problem is not the debt payment, because that can and will be monetized, the problem is the price inflation that will produce (and the possibility of hyperinflation, although I think it wont happen). This is exactly what I wanted to point out.
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July 08, 2011, 12:06:29 PM
 #52

I mention your interest payments to tax income situation because if it were to return to its historical level it will break you. It will not because as you say the fed will credit the government. It is already doing this for about 33% of the entire budget! Why are you not terrified!? Funding 33% (then 50% then 90%) of all government spending will not lead to heavy price inflation, it will lead to a total loss of confidence and hyperinflation.

Social security payments go to fund federal expenditure items. Social security holds an astronomical amount of treasury debt as a result. The govt can not pay social security in worthless devalued dollars (1/10th to 1/1000th its current value) without a very adverse reaction.

The government has lost control and it must bow out and let the economy fix itself. If it is not going to go willingly then you must not be under the impression that something unpleasant of historical proportions is about to happen.

1. Im not from the USA.

2. You are 100% right in this second comment. The problem is not the debt payment, because that can and will be monetized, the problem is the price inflation that will produce (and the possibility of hyperinflation, although I think it wont happen). This is exactly what I wanted to point out.

Cool then we are agreed.

Hyperinflation however is a loss of confidence event when currency becomes a hot potato no-one wants to hold.

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July 09, 2011, 12:02:27 AM
 #53

three types of deefault:

1 Hard default where the load is simply repudiated. not paid back at all.
2. Soft default where the loan is involuntarily restructured and lender takes some kind of haircut.
3. Stealth default where the debt is monetized and therefor expensive dollars (or whatever) are repaid with cheap dollars.

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SmokeAndMirrors
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July 09, 2011, 12:12:14 AM
 #54

I'd just like to say I guess I'd be a libertarian if I had to label myself and don't really buy into the left right paradigm of things. 

Anyways I brought up the topic of bitcoins to her and she said she's heard of it but its not a viable currency because there is nothing backing it. 

I asked her what was backing up the dollar and she said gold. lol.  She was amazed when I said.. um no its not.

This is someone who is hardcore into the democratic party in minnesota, her mom is in the congress there. 
 
I just thought it was interesting how oblivious some people are about the money system, even the ones who are totally immersed in it.

That is all.

I had a similar experience this weekend. I was talking to my brother about bitcoin, when my grandparents overheard us and asked about it. After a brief explanation they decided it was a scam, since nothing was backing it. I ask them what they think is backing our currency. Their response - gold...

I love how the response seems to always be gold. Like we're living in the middle ages... Bitcoin is supposed to be our way out.

Help Bitcoins by buying clothes, technology, books, etc. through people/stores that accept BTC. This will increase overall value of BTC as well as mitigate unnecessary bank transaction fees.

My address -
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July 09, 2011, 12:23:22 AM
 #55

People might be weakened and beaten but they are usually never stupid.

Amen.  I can honestly say that I've known very few truely stupid people, but truely ignorant people are f'ing everywhere I go.

It is not a crime to be ignorant.

In fact, most of humanity is ignorant of programming. Programmers may be force multiplier and harbringer of extreme efficiency, but we have to relies on auto mechanics, laundrymat owner, and nail saloon for our girlfriends.

We bitcoiners are specialist in bitcoin but will be ignorant about pretty much anything else, except perhaps programming and some entrepeneurship.

He never said it was a crime to be ignorant and all you did was prove that everyone is indeed ignorant in some way. The thing is though that people shouldn't be ignorant of something that they put so much of their life's and trust into.

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July 09, 2011, 02:00:50 PM
 #56

Bitcoin has no FDIC equivalent.  The disadvantages of a centralized currency are largely mitigated by the fact someone's looking over your shoulder for up to $100,000 in deposits per FDIC-insured institution.  If someone hacks the personal-I'm-my-own-bank or your house burns down with all of your backups, you're owned.  If someone copies your wallet and manages to drain your account, no cops come to help, no federal investigation.  You're screwed because you got outsmarted.  Who offers bitcoin wallet insurance?  Answer: no competent businessman.

I personally love watching huffy-tuffy anti-fed libertarians whine when someone runs off with $1000s of their bitcoins and then state "O DER WILL BE FEDERAL INVESTIGATION & I GONNA CALL POLICE" - LOL!!! YOU are your own security.  YOU are your own FDIC with bitcoin.  That's one of the major unappealing components of bitcoin that makes us more mainstream people that invest in equities, mutual funds, property, bonds, etc. kind of shy away from bitcoin. And, regardless of how secure bitcoin is, if you're hacked, there's no recourse.  No fed to help.  No Big Brother to rescue you.  No insurance company that would willingly cover your wallet. The coins are just... gone.  That's why it's BETA, and that's why any of you putting more than a fraction of a percentage of your net worth into the current version of bitcoin, designed for 2-5 cent valuations per coin, are clueless when it comes to asset management.  I don't care how secure transactions are - that component of bitcoin is great. The actual logical coin storage application is so poorly-designed and so insecure that it's hard to see this as more than a beta.

Libertarians forget that Big Brother watches over you in a good way 99% of the time. The system is designed to help you out when shit goes down. You can't deny it.  Someone steals your cash?  Call the cops.  They're here to help.  Someone murders your significant other?  You've got one hell of a system behind you to find the perpetrator. Your bank account gets screwed up?  $100k in guaranteed FEDeral insurance (yeah, let me rub that in.. FED FED FED FED - imagine if Allinvain had kept his assets in USD in three different bank accounts - 100% of his assets recovered).  Granted, there are some minor problems with our system (helped not by libertarian morons fighting any regulations whatsoever) like a corrupt healthcare system (we have fantastic doctors - I made a trip to the ER just a few days ago and they had their shit together - but I was lucky with my health insurance coverage, the average guy would pay $5k for what happened to me because Liberdumbs and Republidumbs fight the logic that is a public healthcare system), and a corrupt military-industrial complex that feeds propaganda to the GOP in order to sustain itself.  Systems are a good thing.  Regulations are fantastic and prevent things like a bank signing off on a home loan to you with your crappy credit and fraudulent application (LMAO@ libertarians whining about foreclosure or job issues due to the recession.... a recession created entirely as a consequence of deregulation of the futures, commodities, CDO, CDS, and MBS market).

Damn I love this anti-libertarian tangent I'm on!
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July 09, 2011, 03:43:38 PM
 #57

Ok, Ill answer the troll:

Bitcoin has no FDIC equivalent.  The disadvantages of a centralized currency are largely mitigated by the fact someone's looking over your shoulder for up to $100,000 in deposits per FDIC-insured institution.  If someone hacks the personal-I'm-my-own-bank or your house burns down with all of your backups, you're owned.  If someone copies your wallet and manages to drain your account, no cops come to help, no federal investigation.  You're screwed because you got outsmarted.  Who offers bitcoin wallet insurance?  Answer: no competent businessman.

There are no Bitcoin banks yet, so there can be no insurance for leaving your bitcoins in the bank. You got that one right... in a way. In the future we will see.

I wonder what happens with the dollar if you get robbed in the street. Oh yeah, you loose them. The dollar is so useless...  Roll Eyes

Quote
I personally love watching huffy-tuffy anti-fed libertarians whine when someone runs off with $1000s of their bitcoins

No shit, libertarians are against theft?!?!?! This must be new or something.

Quote
and then state "O DER WILL BE FEDERAL INVESTIGATION & I GONNA CALL POLICE"

Yes, the federal government imposes a monopolly on justice and security, and libertarians have no option but to use that monpolly tfor security and justice. Are you propposing that the government should not provide justice and security and there should be private companies doing it?

Quote
- LOL!!! YOU are your own security.  YOU are your own FDIC with bitcoin.  That's one of the major unappealing components of bitcoin that makes us more mainstream people

Oh, we are talking with more mainstream people. Ohhhh.... How does it feel to be as mainstream as you? Im sure you get all the girls.

Quote
that invest in equities, mutual funds, property, bonds, etc. kind of shy away from bitcoin. And, regardless of how secure bitcoin is, if you're hacked, there's no recourse.  No fed to help.  No Big Brother to rescue you.  No insurance company that would willingly cover your wallet.

This is poor quality trolling. The previous trolls were better.

Quote
The coins are just... gone.  That's why it's BETA, and that's why any of you putting more than a fraction of a percentage of your net worth into the current version of bitcoin, designed for 2-5 cent valuations per coin, are clueless when it comes to asset management.  I don't care how secure transactions are - that component of bitcoin is great. The actual logical coin storage application is so poorly-designed and so insecure that it's hard to see this as more than a beta.

You have a point in the last part, but the solution is almost ready.

Quote
Libertarians forget that Big Brother watches over you in a good way 99% of the time.

Keep sucking the man cock, youll like the reward.

Quote
The system is designed to help you out when shit goes down. You can't deny it.

You can get a song out of this.

Quote
Someone steals your cash?  Call the cops.  They're here to help.  Someone murders your significant other?  You've got one hell of a system behind you to find the perpetrator. Your bank account gets screwed up?  $100k in guaranteed FEDeral insurance (yeah, let me rub that in.. FED FED FED FED - imagine if Allinvain had kept his assets in USD in three different bank accounts - 100% of his assets recovered).

Actually, you got this one wrong. FDIC takes care if your bank goes bankrupt, not if your bank screws with you.

Quote
Granted, there are some minor problems with our system (helped not by libertarian morons fighting any regulations whatsoever) like a corrupt healthcare system (we have fantastic doctors - I made a trip to the ER just a few days ago and they had their shit together - but I was lucky with my health insurance coverage, the average guy would pay $5k for what happened to me because Liberdumbs and Republidumbs fight the logic that is a public healthcare system), and a corrupt military-industrial complex that feeds propaganda to the GOP in order to sustain itself.  Systems are a good thing.  Regulations are fantastic and prevent things like a bank signing off on a home loan to you with your crappy credit and fraudulent application (LMAO@ libertarians whining about foreclosure or job issues due to the recession.... a recession created entirely as a consequence of deregulation of the futures, commodities, CDO, CDS, and MBS market).

Damn I love this anti-libertarian tangent I'm on!

Sorry I got tired of answering your trolling but you are low quality. Try again.
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