Nemesis - the open source intellectual property system

[vintagetrex]

Some people have come to believe that owning bitcoins is the same as owning "a piece of the internet."  Don't fall victim to this propaganda.  Bitcoin is M1 pure currency.  The service provided by Bitcoin is a transaction system of credits, that is all.  There are a few neat features but it is fundamentally an unbacked currency.  Bitcoin is pure currency while Nemesis is a cipher-space hosting corporation.  

Nemesis is backed by information, and the demand for viewing that information.  While Bitcoin may not be traditionally fiat because the amount of coins in the original Bitcoin system is limited, there is nothing preventing people from printing as many Bitcoin systems as they want.  The only non fiat part of Bitcoin is the mining network.  Nemesis retains these non fiat aspects and adds non fiat information.  Yes, the information can be infinitely reproduced, but the generation of new, useful information is rooted in the logic and creativity of mankind.  If the logic and creativity of mankind were infinite we wouldn't be humans.  

I don't want to dog Bitcoin.  I respect the developers and the breakthroughs of Satoshi.  It has done a great job paving the way of the future.  They built a great infrastructure that Nemesis will utilize too (wallets, anonymity, demand, lots of people understanding the abstract concept, mining networks).  

[1714891601]

1714891601

[Joe_Bauers]

This is one of the most interesting ideas I've seen on here in a long time. We shall watch your career with great interest 

[vintagetrex]

What on earth is this?

The result of too much acid?

This is the result of rejecting your prescribed role in society.  Imagine finding out you have great capabilities with logic and creativity, but your memory isn't that good.  You do a little better than average in school because your grades are mostly affected by your memory.  You invent great things only to learn that invention is not rewarded in today's society, so you decide to invent a way to get paid for your inventions.  

This is one of the most interesting ideas I've seen on here in a long time. We shall watch your career with great interest  

thank you

[vintagetrex]

A Proposed Solution to the Illegal Content Problem

• someone will submit something stupid to Nemesis
• hopefully it won't get stored long term but we have to be willing to face a reality where it will
• giving someone the authority to censor Nemesis' information would completely undermine the entire concept
• Nemesis will not censor its content but it will arrange them into different levels of filters
• assume there are 5 levels that look something like this:
• level one: comparable to google's safe search, no explicit content (PG)
• level two: profanity included (PG 13)
• level three: violence included (PG 13)
• level four: sexually explicit content included (R)
• level five: everything included (illegal)

this way, someone can view the content they want to see without being forced to assume an ethical or legal risk

I wish we didn't have to worry about someone submitting illegal content but its best to be prepared for it to happen

[vintagetrex]

If you're suggesting a proof-of-storage mechanism, it's not going to work.

Enlighten me on proof of storage I've never heard of it.  

I don't think thats what I'm proposing.  

Proof of storage is basically where you would be paid for storing information, rather than doing work.

My first priority is a crypto ledger that replaces the role of government money and government intellectual property.  

Proof of storage looks pretty awesome, I wasn't sure it existed, but I think it could be a good piece of the puzzle.  Thank you.  

You should be credited for your submission

So why can't it work?

Could the proof of storage, be an encrypted message, where the sender sets the price?  

Only the sender can decrypt for free. Everyone else has to pay with POW, or POStake.

It can't work because there's no easy way to verify it. Look at Bitcoin's proof of work. It's very hard to find a block, because it takes a ridiculous number of hashes to do so on average, but it takes only one hash to verify that someone has a correct block. Similarly, proof of storage would have to be the same way, that is, easy to verify. However, how do you do it? If you just ask for a hash of the data the node is being paid for storing, then that node can just store the hash of the data and keep getting paid. The only way to verify that a node is storing something is to have the data yourself and have that node send it to you, every byte, and compare it against what you have. Therefore, you have to do the same work as the node to verify the node is doing what it's supposed to.

proof of storage is definitely doable.  It is only a matter of deciding whether to make it privately verifiable or publicly verifiable.  I had previously proposed a privately verifiable POS system.  I removed it from the thread to save readers time when I came up with a better publicly verifiable POS system.  

Here's a paper on publicly verifiable POS (it will make your eyes bleed): <http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~ateniese/papers/pos.pdf>

[vintagetrex]

First, I don't think you've solved the original problem with proof of storage that I mentioned. Anyone who wants to verify that the miner has a copy of the information must have the same information. If you have solved this, please explain.

Second, you haven't solved the illegal content problem. Governments will try to shut it down because there is illegal content on there, even if people can choose not to view it. (although no content should be illegal anyway...)

I'm glad someone is checking my work!

1 - You were correct that I had not "solved" POS in the traditional CS definition of the word at this point! There was a better solution than privately verifiable POS. It was publicly verifiable POS.  Publicly verifiable POS allowed the complexity of the POS protocol to be sufficiently reduced to a single hash.  

2 - Since Nemesis is hosted by an anonymous distributed network of miners, the government can try and shut it down, but they will have a very hard time.  I am looking to the community for more feedback, input, and ideas, but I have posted my own belief of how the problem can be minimized.  Obviously, there is a lot of work needed to be done creating and implementing the filters.  


For publicly verifiable POS, you break the message up into blocks and create a challenge (another block of data) to go with each message block.  Performing a hash of a corresponding message block and challenge block produces an outcome say a string of zeros 00000000.  You can basically ask a person claiming to store the message by sending them a challenge block and asking them to produce the correct answer of hashing it with the desired message block.  You can change up your challenge blocks (even throw in a few the won't produce a string of zeros 1101011111) to verify that the storer is actually storing that portion of the message.  

[vintagetrex]

A decision by the feds to outlaw the mining of Nemesis will only result in a derivation of the game theory gap concept.  That is: there will be an equilibrium between prices where mining costs say $5 per coin and the coins sell for $20 each (just an example)

[vintagetrex]

First, I don't think you've solved the original problem with proof of storage that I mentioned. Anyone who wants to verify that the miner has a copy of the information must have the same information. If you have solved this, please explain.

Second, you haven't solved the illegal content problem. Governments will try to shut it down because there is illegal content on there, even if people can choose not to view it. (although no content should be illegal anyway...)

A more concise response to your first question...

Yes, someone has to store the information to prove that someone else is storing it.  However,  100000000000 servers can have their storage of information checked against 1 single storage.  
This is a very huge solution to a problem.  Its hard for me to even hold all the elements in my head.  You have to draw out a diagram of how the information moves through a path of servers and returns to the original server to see what the communication complexity is like.  If you can tell me how to post pictures on this forum I will post a picture of my diagram.  
(referring to privately verified POS)


I will try to think of another way to do POS that wouldn't involve sending the entire message M around, in order to try to reduce communication complexity.  (publicly verified POS, shown later)

[Juan Taun]

And remember kids, don't use drugs.

And stay in school.

[vintagetrex]

The breakthrough we've all been waiting for

(Publicly verifiable proof of storage)


Inputs X and Y are hashed together to produce a digest

Input X can be a message M or an encryption and key of message M

Input Y is the randomly generated challenge

The proof is when the hash of X and Y produce a digest with an output of zeroes I.E. 00000000000

A storer must find an input Y that satisfies a digest requirement of a string of zeroes I.E. 0000000000 by randomly generating numbers to use as input Y.  

The proof of storage is a proof of work on information.  The information must be stored to perform work with it.  The storage of the information can be easily proved by checking that the requirement of a string of zeroes was satisfied.  

[vintagetrex]

The breakthrough we've all been waiting for

(Publicly verifiable proof of storage BECAUSE I'M A SUPERFREAK)


Inputs X and Y are hashed together to produce a digest

Input X can be a message M or an encryption and key of message M

Input Y is the randomly generated challenge

The proof is when the hash of X and Y produce a digest with an output of zeroes I.E. 00000000000

A storer must find an input Y that satisfies a digest requirement of a string of zeroes I.E. 0000000000 by randomly generating numbers to use as input Y.  

The proof of storage is a proof of work on information.  The information must be stored to perform work with it.  The storage of the information can be easily proved by checking that the requirement of a string of zeroes was satisfied.  

The storer can lie about the hash, making one up if the checker doesn't have the information the storer has to make sure that the hash is really produced by that data, right?

Not if the network of miners are the ones checking that the work was performed and at least 51% agree on what the message was.  Its the same function as Bitcoin's proof of work hash except performed on a message with utility rather than a random string. The only difference is the being hashed is randomly encrypted rather than simply using a random string of numbers.  

Of course someone has to have the message to check that it is being stored by someone else.

(Message ### challenge) = 00000000000001

If someone produces a challenge and claims it works, but everyone says "hey i tried your challenge with the message u claimed it worked for and it totally didn't work" then everyone rejects that falsely produced challenge.  It is very easy to check which allows everyone to check the validity of a solution

[int3ractivodular]

Watching with interest...

[vintagetrex]

The publicly verifiable POS I proposed will work.  it proves storage of a message over a period of work, rather than over a period of time.  
I.E. this message was stored while 100382 hashes were performed with random numbers.  

Ideally, it will be implemented with a cryptographic hash function that has a high (time/work) ratio to isolate the storage portion of the process.  
I.E. this message was stored while (2870432 hashes were performed) * (1 second / .01 hashes) = 287043200 seconds

I'll try and find out if a strong hash function like this exists.  It probably isn't necessary I just figured it would be nice if everyone didn't have to purchase specialized hashing hardware like ASIC miners in order to efficiently store information.  Obviously, its not worth trading security for this.  

Maybe a better way to propose this question is this: is there a hash function that is unaffected by CPU processing power/speed?

[vintagetrex]

Sounds like it should work, although the only people that could check would be those that have the information in the first place.

Yes, the other miners who are already storing the information.

[jackyrozario]

Nemesis Airsoft on toistaiseksi lopettanut sekä Tampereen myymälän että nettimyymälän. ProAirsoft toimii nyt Tampereen liiketiloissa.

[vintagetrex]

I am now looking for developers and contributors for Nemesis.  Here's the developer recruitment page:

<https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=338080.new>

[vintagetrex]

Project GitHub (new info)

https://github.com/vintagetrex/Nemesis-Project/blob/master/README.md

Someone please find out how to embed the advertisements in the proof of storage file. 

[vintagetrex]

bump

datacoin has launched.  The concept seems to be largely based on the ideas presented in this thread.  YAY!!

the people should demand a coin that rewards each individual for his/her specific contribution of information.  It will be the long term market winner, eventually overtaking Bitcoin.

[vintagetrex]

A considerable amount of the ideas in this datacoin thread are also represented in this thread.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=338480.100


now accepting datacoins:

D86uHZ94hGYbNbA1GePZ2avFqEhRGz2TYv

[cryptrol]

A considerable amount of the ideas in this datacoin thread are also represented in this thread.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=338480.100


now accepting datacoins:

D86uHZ94hGYbNbA1GePZ2avFqEhRGz2TYv

Yes, DTC is a nice experiment, also following it.