"I don't vote"... "it's beneath me"??

[johnyj]

I feel that those who are weak tends to like vote

[1714605674]

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How's that different from being a bum?*  Expand.

*Let's see...  Don't vote? Check.  Don't pay taxes?  Check.  Avoid the military all work? Check.  No licence?  Check.  Disregard censorship?  Ignore prohibition?  Drink & swear, check & check.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but my dictionary defines "bum" as either backside or a lazy person.  If you meant the latter, you are mistaken, because real bums are those who want to be fed by welfare (stolen from their more competetive neighbors) instead of working.  We, on the other hand, are prepared to rely on no one's but our own work to survive and to prosper, and would rather prefer not being robbed, constrained and humiliated.

If your dictionary tells you that bums want to be fed by welfare (stolen from their more competetive neighbors), it's junk, toss it out.  You've been robbed, most likely by a fellow anarcap.  
Neither my dictionary nor reality imply any such thing.  If your similarities to gutter drunks elude you, please see footnote above.

If your mom & dad ask you to cut the lawn, your arguing "I don't care 'bout the damn lawn!  If you want it cut, do it yourself, Ah gots mah freedomz!" simply ain't going to fly -- cut the lawn or GTFO.  The state finds your "don't tax me, brah!" arguments equally lulzy.  

If you'd like to live tax-free, without leaching off your neighbors [governments simply raise taxes to compensate for non-payers -- your neighbors have you to thank for being broke, you steal from them, not the gob'ment], feel free to vote with your feet.  

[hazek]

"I don't vote" -- could somebody please explain this attitude which seems very pervasive among An-Caps and Libertarians & Co.?

This video explains it perfectly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lz2ZMYUn3Uk

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EDIT: by the way I found the bug in the current version of democracy. In parliamentary elections if 100% of people vote and some party gets 50% of the vote, they get 50% of seats in parliament. If 50% of people vote and 50% of that 50% vote for that party, they still get 50% of the seats. Same with 10%, 5%, 0.1%. At which point does the absurdity become too self-evident?

Proposed fix to bug: give parties a % of seats based on the % of all possible votes. This way if 50% of people vote and 50% of those vote for Party X, the party gets 25% of available seats of parliament. 50% of seats will remain empty in such a scenario. This way, if there is less than 50% participation, formation of government is not possible. This actually takes into account the sentiment of people who don't want to be governed, but who have no way of expressing their preference under the current system.

Don't be surprised if your patch doesn't make it -- by your logic, 50% of the user total on this forum need to vote in its favor, and not just those who vote.

Or we could just skip all that bullshit and graduate to anarchy, but I guess that's a bit too fast for most people. They like their dehmukracy.

Nah.  They may not like democracy, they're probably just milking you for the lulz.  If you're not a fan, you're free to fight it, ignore it, or just continue providing lulz with your insightful posts.  
How does that go again?
First they laugh at you, then they laugh at you, and then they pee their pants laughing at you?

[FoBoT]

this write up explains many of your questions, i agree with most of the ideas presented
http://fubarandgrill.org/node/1172

[countryfree]

I'm in the group of people who are not allowed to vote, so it's easy for me. I'm not even allowed to register. When you vote, besides making a choice between people you've never met, you also say that you belong to some territory. I guess I could vote where I was born but when I'm going back there, it just doesn't feel like home anymore. And when I talk with people, as I've become so different from all the experiences I've had in many different places of the world, the local people that should be my friends see me as a foreigner.

I don't think I will vote ever again, and yes, it's beneath me, because I don't think I have any connections with the people voting, or the people who want to be elected. Nor most of the time about the issues which are big with either group.

[Strange Vlad]

If your mom & dad ask you to cut the lawn, your arguing "I don't care 'bout the damn lawn!  If you want it cut, do it yourself, Ah gots mah freedomz!" simply ain't going to fly -- cut the lawn or GTFO.

I've chosen "GTFO" long time ago (and I wish i did it even earlier, and will kick my own children out ASAP), and I wish I could do the same with government.  But unlike parents, the government(s) wouldn't simply let me out.  The best thing I could do is emigrate, but outside of my government there are only another governments, most of them are even worse one way or another (especially those which would let me in easily).  That's why the right to secede is probably the most important of my goals as a political activist.

this write up explains many of your questions, i agree with most of the ideas presented
http://fubarandgrill.org/node/1172

Thanks, this is a nice article.  I also agree with most of it, if not all.


P.S.  On my avatar there is this label:  "VOTE NOBODY // Nobody represents the people"
Too bad it has to be scaled down so badly, it's almost unreadable.  I should have probably chosen a better one, but was too lazy to search again.

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If your mom & dad ask you to cut the lawn, your arguing "I don't care 'bout the damn lawn!  If you want it cut, do it yourself, Ah gots mah freedomz!" simply ain't going to fly -- cut the lawn or GTFO.

I've chosen "GTFO" long time ago (and I wish i did it even earlier, and will kick my own children out ASAP), and I wish I could do the same with government.  But unlike parents, the government(s) wouldn't simply let me out.  The best thing I could do is emigrate, but outside of my government there are only another governments, most of them are even worse one way or another (especially those which would let me in easily).  That's why the right to secede is probably the most important of my goals as a political activist.

You already won three internets for staying consistent.  But a problem with your last sentence.  Don't tune out -- this is shorter than it looks

When you decided to GTFO of your parent's, you didn't get to take your room with you -- it was an integral part of your parents' house.  
Your new place [apartment, friend's house] had rules too.  
Just like GTFO of your country will land you in *another* country with lawns to cut.  The analogy holds.

It's hard to tell just what you mean when you say "[your] right to secede," then.  
You admit that your government will allow you to emigrate, what more do you want?  You can't fault it for the world outside of its borders.  No more than your parents are at fault for the world outside their house sucking & the rent being expensive.  Agreed?

Just how exactly do you wish to "secede"?  Keep in mind some very basic concerns:  
When you "own" an apartment, you can't "opt out" of maintenance costs for the building (think tax), nor can you take your walls and ceilings with you if you leave -- those walls are *also other people's walls,* a structural part without which the whole building will fall apart.

Is something like this your idea of "seceding" ?  You want more stuff to take with you?  Otherwise, the world is your oyster!  Earth's taken, not sure about the moon, but the rest of the universe is yours for the taking!  Go forth and live free amongst the starz!

[hazek]

Just like GTFO of your country will land you in *another* country with lawns to cut.  The analogy holds.

Except my parents own their house, no one owns the entire land mass that is named America. Only some psychopaths claim they do, and not just it, but you as well.

[phillipsjk]

Quoted from recent correspondence:

Strategic voting leads to a two-party system like the have in the US.

As long as less than 50% (66% in a two party system) of eligible voters actually vote, the "non-voters" have the power to change the government by voting for a third party. Strategic voting is essentially voting for one of two parties you explicitly don't agree with because you think one is actually worse than the other.

I am of the opinion that people who don't support *any* of the available candidates should mark an X beside all of them. This spoils their ballot (which is technically illegal, but enforcement is tough due to secrecy) but is counted in the statistics released by Elections Canada. If the number of spoiled ballots equaled the number of ballots for the person actually elected, that would send a strong message about the choices people feel they have to choose from. When I checked, less than 1% of ballots are spoiled (may even be 0.1%). That low level can almost be written off as user error.

-james

PS: I decided long ago that I am never voting for a party that advocates strategic voting. The essentially means I never vote Liberal. Though, lately the NDP has been toying with the "strategic voting" message.

With the electronic "voting" systems in the US, I am not sure if it is actually possible to cast a non-vote. I know the Australian e-voting system (with a paper trail!) allows an "informal ballot" (I believe voting is required by law).

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Just like GTFO of your country will land you in *another* country with lawns to cut.  The analogy holds.

Except my parents own their house, no one owns the entire land mass that is named America. Only some psychopaths claim they do, and not just it, but you as well.

Well, your parents may own the house itself, and possibly the rights to the minerals beneath the plot of land they own, but land "ownership" is just a colorful phrase.  The land is subject to all the local (think zoning laws) and federal (can't serve blow to underage hookers).  Finally, the gob'ment can take your land by eminent domain or some other term if you're not in US.  Justlikethat.

As far as psychopathic claims, there are plenty of those going around.

[ErisDiscordia]

Don't be surprised if your patch doesn't make it -- by your logic, 50% of the user total on this forum need to vote in its favor, and not just those who vote.

Voting sucks anyway. I'm just providing the lulz. Want some more?

Democracy via Facebook! Everybody gets to create proposals for law. Just like you can create events and fanpages. Then people get to "like" the proposals. If 50%+ people like the proposal, it gets implemented and everybody has to follow it. PURE direct dehmukracy, none of that representative shit they peddle today. I wonder how long it would take for people to get fed up with having to follow any stupid shit which gets enough likes?

The ways of peeing your pants laughing at duhmukrazy are countless indeed and I shall continue to provide them until the age of bureaucracy collapses upon itself in a glorious blaze of whatever.

[dotcom]

"I don't vote" -- could somebody please explain this attitude which seems very pervasive among An-Caps and Libertarians & Co.?

I vote, not that it matters in the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_WBo4sfmi4

Media and vote-count manipulation are the tools of a plutocratic system based on money and power. Democracy in the modern age is an illusion, and elections a puppet-show.

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Don't be surprised if your patch doesn't make it -- by your logic, 50% of the user total on this forum need to vote in its favor, and not just those who vote.

Voting sucks anyway. I'm just providing the lulz. Want some more?

Democracy via Facebook! Everybody gets to create proposals for law. Just like you can create events and fanpages. Then people get to "like" the proposals. If 50%+ people like the proposal, it gets implemented and everybody has to follow it. PURE direct dehmukracy, none of that representative shit they peddle today. I wonder how long it would take for people to get fed up with having to follow any stupid shit which gets enough likes?

Bah!  You say democracy, i say Mob Rule.  Even the Greeks were smart enough to qualify just who these demos were -- no women, no slaves.  
Think of democracy as a euphemism for "we'll pretend to care about what you think if you pretend to believe us & don't sharpen your pitchforks."  
The powers that be are trying to be polite -- don't spoil it for everyone

The ways of peeing your pants laughing at duhmukrazy are countless indeed and I shall continue to provide them until the age of bureaucracy collapses upon itself in a glorious blaze of whatever.

"A glorious blaze of blazers' sounds pretty apocalyptic.

[phillipsjk]

Which is all fine and dandy, you might say.  Except when it comes to government, for the second method I mentioned is, literally, illegal.

Since 2001, organizing a successful boycott is considered "Economic terrorism." Witness the Occupy Wallstreet protesters being arrested for trying to peacefully close their bank-accounts.

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Which is all fine and dandy, you might say.  Except when it comes to government, for the second method I mentioned is, literally, illegal.

Since 2001, organizing a successful boycott is considered "Economic terrorism." Witness the Occupy Wallstreet protesters being arrested for trying to peacefully close their bank-accounts.

They were charged with "peaceful  closing of bank accounts"   Those arrestors aught to be arrested is what I think!

[phillipsjk]

They were charged with "peaceful  closing of bank accounts"   Those arrestors aught to be arrested is what I think!

Bank of America won't let protesters close their accounts

For some reason the YouTube video is set to "private".

[Strange Vlad]

You already won three internets for staying consistent.  But a problem with your last sentence.  Don't tune out -- this is shorter than it looks

When you decided to GTFO of your parent's, you didn't get to take your room with you -- it was an integral part of your parents' house.  
Your new place [apartment, friend's house] had rules too.  
Just like GTFO of your country will land you in *another* country with lawns to cut.  The analogy holds.

It's hard to tell just what you mean when you say "[your] right to secede," then.  
You admit that your government will allow you to emigrate, what more do you want?  You can't fault it for the world outside of its borders.  No more than your parents are at fault for the world outside their house sucking & the rent being expensive.  Agreed?

Just how exactly do you wish to "secede"?  Keep in mind some very basic concerns:  
When you "own" an apartment, you can't "opt out" of maintenance costs for the building (think tax), nor can you take your walls and ceilings with you if you leave -- those walls are *also other people's walls,* a structural part without which the whole building will fall apart.

Is something like this your idea of "seceding" ?  You want more stuff to take with you?  Otherwise, the world is your oyster!  Earth's taken, not sure about the moon, but the rest of the universe is yours for the taking!  Go forth and live free amongst the starz!

First of all, comparing a house with a state is a bad analogy.  There are millions of houses to rent a room in, and anyone can build a new house if he has enough money.  And there are only about 200 countries, and common people cannot build a new one, no matter how much money they have (spacesteading and seasteading is another topic, in two words: unfairly expensive).

But if you insist on comparing a state with a house, let's speak about 2-family house.  Let's imagine my family owns a large 2-family house, where I live in one half and my parents in another half (not my actual situation, but I bet such families exist).  When time comes, I take a loan and buy my half of the house.  Now that it's mine, I can do what I want with it.  I can change the lock so that my parents wouldn't be able to enter without my permission.  My mom used to insist that I keep my half-house clean and tidy, but now that it's my property I no longer give a flick about her opinion.  I can invite friends and hookers and do what I want in my half unless it doesn't harm anyone outside of it.  Their rules work only on their half, and my rules on my half.  The government, however, insists on its stupid rules over my property even after I buy it.  I can have my own rules over my land, but the government rules take precedence.  And the government feels free to invade my property and demand its "taxes" even though I've already paid for the land.  See the difference?  I'm not allowed to own any land entirely, I can actually only buy a permission to use it subject to it's owner (government) rules.  Which is super-stupid and annoys the hell out of me.  I would agree to pay more to be able to TRULY OWN the land with no strings attached, like in sovereignty over my land.  In other words, I would like to pay as much as needed to take 0.00000006% of my country's land and found a new state within this land.  By the way, I represent 0.0000007% of my country's population and ready to pay for the land 0.0000012% of its GDP, as you see both shares are significantly higher than a portion of land I would be happy to buy.  But of course they won't sell me the land with sovereignty, no matter how expensive.  And no other country will.  That's the point.

Well, your parents may own the house itself, and possibly the rights to the minerals beneath the plot of land they own, but land "ownership" is just a colorful phrase.  The land is subject to all the local (think zoning laws) and federal (can't serve blow to underage hookers).  Finally, the gob'ment can take your land by eminent domain or some other term if you're not in US.  Justlikethat.

See?  You understand it yourself!  Why do you argue then?!  Isn't it outrageous that gov't defines what is 'underage' for example?  People are perfectly adult at 14 or even 13, both physically and mentally.  Why those "government" gangsters push their shit about 18 years old and stuff?!  What happens if people fuck at 17, do they like explode and kill everybody?!  I DARE SAY THAT IT'S OKAY TO FUCK AT 15, now come and jail me, idiots.  What's all this shit about drug prohibition?!  If people are stupid, let them do stupid things and die early, it's better for our gene pool.  Why do adult responsible people get restrained even if we don't even hurt anybody?!  Why weapon ban?!  It's super stupid, how do we even defend ourselves against armed bandits?!  Oh I forgot, it's armed bandits themselves who prohibit guns, isn't it?!  Why do I need to be forced to use those fucking seatbelts?  Let me die in that crash if I'm that car accident, I don't care!  No, I do use seatbelts, but not because of government, but because I actually care for myself, I AM NOT A FUCKING CHILD!  Why do they ban gays?  Okay, they don't ban gays in US or Europe, but here in Russia they do.  I am straight myself, but I've got a few gay and lesbian friends, and some of them were already beaten on the streets.  HUNDREDS OF LGBT CHILDREN COMMIT SUICIDES AND GET KILLED because of those STUPID laws!  And now they force religion on me also!  What if I'm satanist (not really), why should I be OK if they derive their stupid laws from Orthodox Christianity and INSIST that I don't dare say ANYTHING that MIGHT make some of them feel bad?!  So all atheists go to JAIL!!!  You have PRISM in US, we have SORM, pretty much the same shit, why should I be OK with those police dogs eavesdropping my Internetz?!  And they ban websites too, a lot of them.  THIS IS FUCKING IRAN OR WHAT?!  Of course I can use VPN and Tor, but they might ban it too...

DUDE, statism is ugly, ultimate evil, the most dirty thing in the world.  I hate them all so much that I don't hate anything else.  I LOVE THE WHOLE WORLD EXCEPT GOVERNMENTS, because ALL my HATE is just CONCENTRATED AT THEM.

Sorry for emotional post.

[ErisDiscordia]

Bah!  You say democracy, i say Mob Rule.

How about Dem Mob Krazy?

[DoomDumas]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bTbLslkIR2k#t=0s

Why would I vote ?