Project Invictus Vs. Project Holy Grail

[jimbobway]

Right now there seems to be two efforts that I know of working on a P2P Exchange.  It seems like Project Holy Grail is much further along than Project Invictus.

Project Invictus: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=229315.0
Project Holy Grail: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=225954.0

I just wanted to hear your thoughts about why Project Invictus would succeed over Project Holy Grail or vice versa.

Project Invictus is still working on gathering requirements with little or no direction in coding.  The lead seems to tackle the problem from a business perspective.

Project Holy Grail already has bounties in place for the coding of the exchange with screenshots of some of the GUI components.

What I really want to know is why the lead of Project Invictus will succeed over project Holy Grail, since the latter has a larger head start.  Are you there?

[bytemaster]

Project Invictus just formed Invictus Innovations, Inc and is very well capitalized.   I am the CTO and have just started full time development and we are in the process of looking to hire the best tallent in the Bitcoin community for 2 or 3 more full time positions.    If you have skills and experience in C++ / bitcoin please contact me.

At the moment we have 3 people working on this full time and have an order of magnitude more funding than Project Holy Grail.     We will be making more announcements in the near future with multiple product releases scheduled over the next 6 months.

[greBit]

Does Project Invictus include the creation of the Bitshares alt-coin, or is this separate?

Is there a mailing list / irc chat room for the project? or is it in stealth mode?

cheers

[bytemaster]

We are not trying to operate in stealth mode.  We have been working 80 hours / week in planning, etc.   

The latest white paper is here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RLcjSXWuU9vBJzzqLEXVACSCdn8zXKTTJRN_LfoCjNY   and we would like as much help / feedback from the community as possible.

We have registered our domain names and are looking to work with the community to develop this entirely in the open.    We post here in these forums on a regular basis and collect the contact info of everyone interested in the project.   

We are looking for a good web developer / admin to setup and maintain a dedicated forum, mailing list, and website. 

In the mean time if you would like to help make this project a success we are looking for feedback on a new system to keep mining decentralized and minimized via Proof of Minimal Work.     We are paying tips to people who prove helpful.   

Anyone who wishes to be actively involved and contributing can start working with us immediately and if your contributions prove valuable and we have the capital we would be looking to hire the best, most passionate developers.    If you have something to contribute let us know!

[greBit]

So just to clarify, Project Invictus = Bitshares, correct?

[bytemaster]

Project Invictus = Invictus Inovations, Inc
Our mission is to provide decentralized solutions to centralized problems.

BitShares is one our first products out of many in the pipe.

[nomailing]

Right now there seems to be two efforts that I know of working on a P2P Exchange.  It seems like Project Holy Grail is much further along than Project Invictus.

Project Invictus: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=229315.0
Project Holy Grail: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=225954.0

I just wanted to hear your thoughts about why Project Invictus would succeed over Project Holy Grail or vice versa.

Project Invictus is still working on gathering requirements with little or no direction in coding.  The lead seems to tackle the problem from a business perspective.

Project Holy Grail already has bounties in place for the coding of the exchange with screenshots of some of the GUI components.

What I really want to know is why the lead of Project Invictus will succeed over project Holy Grail, since the latter has a larger head start.  Are you there?

You are talking about a P2P Exchange, right? I personally would not call Open-Transactions a P2P protocol, but a system of federated servers.
So in terms of P2P-Exchange I would say Project Invictus is more likely to succeed. But obviously it's a matter of opinion if you define federated servers as P2P...
If you want to argue that OpenTransactions is decentralized, so it is sort of P2P, then I would say that this is at the moment purely theoretical reasoning. So I wouldn't say that Project Holy Grail has a larger head start. Project Invictus has a larger head start because it builds on top of a similar P2P protocol like Bitcoin while OT is very different to Bitcoin and hasn't proven itself in practical applications yet.

[bytemaster]

This is why we spent so much time defining the criteria of the ideal exchange.   OT fails almost all of the criteria.

1) It is based upon trust in issuers
2) The model of broadcasting price information via BitMessage is not a valid means of establishing a market price.
3) Operating an OT server is like operating a mini centralized exchange.
4) Issuers are creating bearer bonds (illegal)
5) No dividends / financial incentive for *everyone* to use the system.

All of that said, I still believe that there is a place for OT servers as high-frequency trading hubs and *trusted* banks for digital cash.   OT needs to be marketed at current exchanges as a far more secure, audit-able, and accountable system.  If Mt. Gox or BitStamp implemented an OT api for managing your account it would be a major selling point.

[charleshoskinson]

Insert Quote
Right now there seems to be two efforts that I know of working on a P2P Exchange.  It seems like Project Holy Grail is much further along than Project Invictus.

Project Invictus: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=229315.0
Project Holy Grail: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=225954.0

I just wanted to hear your thoughts about why Project Invictus would succeed over Project Holy Grail or vice versa.

Project Invictus is still working on gathering requirements with little or no direction in coding.  The lead seems to tackle the problem from a business perspective.

Project Holy Grail already has bounties in place for the coding of the exchange with screenshots of some of the GUI components.

What I really want to know is why the lead of Project Invictus will succeed over project Holy Grail, since the latter has a larger head start.  Are you there?

When I first started Project Invictus it was with a totally neutral stance on existing projects. Our first goal was to properly define a p2p decentralized exchange whose purpose was to allow for faster and more global fiat to crypto-currency transactions without the need for trust and a better escrow system than apparent with current incumbents. So why did we want to do this? To make your Bitcoins better by reducing market volatility and significantly increasing liquidity.

So it all started with the Invictus thread and I had an opportunity to meet a lot of the brightest minds in the Bitcoin community; however, one in particular stood out as especially unique and forward thinking- Bytemaster. Daniel developed the kernel of what was necessary to accomplish my original goal and was willing to invest his own money and time in correcting misconceptions about his own designs prior to ever meeting me. That's a rare quality and it told me we could work together to transform BitShares into the system capable of what was needed.

Over the many 80 hour weeks, we've grown considerably from just a collection of hopes and ideas to a fully VC funded corporation in the state of Virginia that is now actually writing the source code to implement our new ecosystem. While we have no intention to operate in silent mode, we have to be careful about expectation management and also refine our launch strategy for this revolutionary (and it really is) open sourced protocol. Thus we'll be scare on the details for now, but both Daniel and I will be presenting our protocol and some of its source code to the world in October at C3 where we are invited speakers. Until then enjoy the whitepaper- which you'll notice has evolved quite a bit- and hang tight.

I will say a few more things before I leave:
BitShares is not an altcoin competing with Bitcoin, but rather a metacurrency to support a new kind of digital asset.
BitShares does not seek to replace conventional Bitcoin exchanges, but rather link them together and significantly enhance their functionality.
BitShares will allow for easy person to person trading similar to Local Bitcoins, but much faster and safer
BitShares is very altcoin friendly and will eventually allow other currencies like Litecoin and Feathercoin to trade without the need of a central exchange.
BitShares will be like crack for Wall Street and drive significant mainstream adoption of crypto-currencies to the financial sector benefiting all CC in the regulatory and legal spectrum.
Those that use BitShares are not to the best of our knowledge using bearer bonds or acting as money transmitters.

Stay tuned for our many bounty campaigns coming soon.

Charles
CEO of Invictus Innovations Inc.
Decentralized Solutions to Centralized Problems  

[marcus_of_augustus]

I will say a few more things before I leave:
BitShares is not an altcoin competing with Bitcoin, but rather a metacurrency to support a new kind of digital asset.
BitShares does not seek to replace conventional Bitcoin exchanges, but rather link them together and significantly enhance their functionality.
BitShares will allow for easy person to person trading similar to Local Bitcoins, but much faster and safer
BitShares is very altcoin friendly and will eventually allow other currencies like Litecoin and Feathercoin to trade without the need of a central exchange.
BitShares will be like crack for Wall Street and drive significant mainstream adoption of crypto-currencies to the financial sector benefiting all CC in the regulatory and legal spectrum.
Those that use BitShares are not to the best of our knowledge using bearer bonds or acting as money transmitters.

Wow! Sounds awesome! Like it can do anything you might want it to ...

[charleshoskinson]

Wow! Sounds awesome! Like it can do anything you might want it to ...

Which is why we obtained VC funding so quickly. Daniel really knocked this one out of the park.

[bytemaster]

We are actively seeking feedback on this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253120.msg2693133#msg2693133   

This is a new alternative proof of work system that will result in even less inflation and guarantee that mining will be even more decentralized and secure than any CPU-only algorithm could ever hope to accomplish.   

[marcus_of_augustus]

Wow! Sounds awesome! Like it can do anything you might want it to ...

Which is why we obtained VC funding so quickly. Daniel really knocked this one out of the park.

Satoshi should have presented his paper for VC funding on that logic ....

[jimbobway]

charleshoskinson and bytemaster, thanks for responding to my thread with much detail and it is greatly appreciated.  I have read most of the threads and some of the whitepaper.

Also, remember to take breaks from the 80 hour weeks.  I don't want you guys to burn out. :-)

[bytemaster]

Wow! Sounds awesome! Like it can do anything you might want it to ...

Which is why we obtained VC funding so quickly. Daniel really knocked this one out of the park.

Satoshi should have presented his paper for VC funding on that logic ....

We are benefiting from the work that Satoshi did to prove the concept of block chains and the viability of a crypto-currency as a store of value.   Without the past 4 years success of Bitcoin the idea of Bitshares and the rapid recognition of its value by VC firms would not have been possible.

Satoshi had the benefit of being anonymous... we have the benefit of funding.  Time will tell which is more valuable to living a long and prosperous life!

[bytemaster]

charleshoskinson and bytemaster, thanks for responding to my thread with much detail and it is greatly appreciated.  I have read most of the threads and some of the whitepaper.

Also, remember to take breaks from the 80 hour weeks.  I don't want you guys to burn out. :-)

This project is our passion and (for me at least) gives my life a purpose far beyond simply making money.   This is the first step of many on my journey to see freedom for all in my lifetime.

[charleshoskinson]

Satoshi should have presented his paper for VC funding on that logic .... Wink

Satoshi has over a million Bitcoins so I suspect he's doing ok That said, imagine trying to sell the Internet to a VC in 1993. This was your average customer:



Great ideas take time to mature and evolve. We are profoundly grateful to have the past four years and the resulting community to draw from. We hope we can continue the tradition of innovation and help Bitcoin and its community continue to enjoy its rapid growth for another 4 years and beyond.

[greBit]

Out of interest what are you going to be offering investors?

I saw this thread a while ago...

Some ideas that we are considering:

1) We could pre-sell CPU hours on machines that are designed to be the most cost-effective miners and the value to the investor would be not having to manage mining hardware, software, utilities, overheating, etc.   The advantage to the company is that it isn't actually selling BitShares for cash, it is selling CPU time for cash.    Any unsold CPU hours would be used by the company for its own mining.    The profits from selling CPU time could then be rolled into development.

2) We could launch a mining pool in parallel and give investors a cut of the fees from being the first/only/most trusted mining pool.

3) We could waive fees on the mining pool for investors and charge higher fees for non-investors until a competing mining pool could get set up.   The default client would be configured to use our mining pool. 

I will be following this project closely!

[charleshoskinson]

Out of interest what are you going to be offering investors?

I saw this thread a while ago...

We will have a major announcement in October and I personally will be travelling to a lot of the larger Bitcoin meetup groups around the United States to discuss both BitShares and how you can become an early adopter.

We will also be launching a website in the coming months with both a forum and a Q&A system to build a community around our ecosystem. There will many opportunities over the next 24 months to be an innovator and a supporter of what we are building.

To pull a Steve Jobs, It will be totally magical and amazing and you're just going to have to wait

[bytemaster]

Out of interest what are you going to be offering investors?

I saw this thread a while ago...

Some ideas that we are considering:

1) We could pre-sell CPU hours on machines that are designed to be the most cost-effective miners and the value to the investor would be not having to manage mining hardware, software, utilities, overheating, etc.   The advantage to the company is that it isn't actually selling BitShares for cash, it is selling CPU time for cash.    Any unsold CPU hours would be used by the company for its own mining.    The profits from selling CPU time could then be rolled into development.

2) We could launch a mining pool in parallel and give investors a cut of the fees from being the first/only/most trusted mining pool.

3) We could waive fees on the mining pool for investors and charge higher fees for non-investors until a competing mining pool could get set up.   The default client would be configured to use our mining pool. 

I will be following this project closely!

We are looking for ways to get people involved, but due to the level of interest from multiple big investors we don't currently have a plan for handling many small investors.  

Here is how I think small investors can profit:

1) Start using the network on day one and buy the bitshares as soon as the chain is launched.
2) Invest in BitShare related startup ideas / businesses.   For example, lay the ground work for the first BitStore that takes BitUSD in exchange for goods and services and work with us to launch it on day one.
3) Propose a bitshares related startup business and we may help provide seed money to bootstrap your business.  You will profit based upon the success of your initiative and we all benefit by the growing ecosystem.  

BitShares is an entire ecosystem that works with bitcoin and we will not and cannot own it all.   So make a claim on some area and go for it!

Of course, none of what I said above should be interpreted as a commitment to any particular plan on our part.

Our commitment not to pre-mine is our primary investment option for early adopters and small investors.