Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

[UncleBobs]

Here is an interesting article by a Bitcoin-aware author that encapsulates where I think our economies are going for the masses.  Of course, the Bitcoin economy will be separate, and to some extent in open opposition, which is, in my view, exactly what it should be. 

http://simulacrum.cc/2013/07/10/three-trends-that-push-us-towards-an-unconditional-basic-income/

Discussion on HN is here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6025999

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[Ekaros]

We are moving towards time when this is possible.

We currently have system that don't intensive working while at same time does provide basic survival. Basic income would allow people to choose to work for their own benefit. It might increase labour costs on some sectors, but that balances out on long run...

[Hawker]

http://ftalphaville.ft.com/2013/11/21/1697992/guest-post-the-precariat-needs-a-basic-income/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+seriouslywallstreet+%28Wall+Street%29

Another well written argument for the same concept. 

[Spendulus]

Here is an interesting article by a Bitcoin-aware author that encapsulates where I think our economies are going for the masses.  Of course, the Bitcoin economy will be separate, and to some extent in open opposition, which is, in my view, exactly what it should be. 

http://simulacrum.cc/2013/07/10/three-trends-that-push-us-towards-an-unconditional-basic-income/

Discussion on HN is here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6025999

Hmm, I saw a large number of factual errors, unqualified assumptions and questionable premises in that article.  Almost as if he wrote it to support the desired conclusion.

But he's certainly right that a lot of people like free stuff.

[interlagos]

I think it's a good news.

We are a moving away from "compete for survival" game
more towards "cooperate for prosperity" kinda game.

ET races have always wondered "why do you have to pay to live on your own planet?".
Now we start seeing the problem with that as well.

[niothor]

Let me know how long this model will last:

"Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on.  The only condition is citizenship and/or residency.

You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional."

When my country will send around 1 million gypsy your way.
There are people in villages near my town who refuse to work for 500 euros because they can get half that amount from social welfare and do nothing. And to be sure they get that they make around 5-8 kids /generation.

[interlagos]

Let me know how long this model will last:

"Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on.  The only condition is citizenship and/or residency.

You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional."

When my country will send around 1 million gypsy your way.
There are people in villages near my town who refuse to work for 500 euros because they can get half that amount from social welfare and do nothing. And to be sure they get that they make around 5-8 kids /generation.

It would take a small percent of population to engineer and operate the machinery/robots, that would produce most of the things that society needs. Add to this almost free and clean energy sources and you will understand that "you need to work to survive" mantra will soon fade away.

Or do you suggest that most of the human population needs to die in poverty, while robots do all the job?

[niothor]

Let me know how long this model will last:

"Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on.  The only condition is citizenship and/or residency.

You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional."

When my country will send around 1 million gypsy your way.
There are people in villages near my town who refuse to work for 500 euros because they can get half that amount from social welfare and do nothing. And to be sure they get that they make around 5-8 kids /generation.

It would take a small percent of population to engineer and operate the machinery/robots, that would produce most of the things that society needs. Add to this almost free and clean energy sources and you will understand that "you need to work to survive" mantra will soon fade away.

Or do you suggest that most of the human population needs to die in poverty, while robots do all the job?

Let me tell you this , I am not racist , but living here I have to see the facts clearly...
The gypsy population exploded , more than doubling in the last 15 years. They all  live on social welfare in the best case scenario , the worst is.... (people living in western Europe have found out).
This guaranteed minimum wage has been exploited so much that we end up paying the same amount for those people compared to all retirement funds.
And the balance is going down by the minute.

People have begun to get lazy  , during the heavy rainfall and snow the soldiers tried to unblock the roads and get people out of their houses while the already rescued neighbors stand by with a bottle of alcohol and joke around.

I saw this failing so bad in my country , and you westerners will see it also.
Wait till you get hit by a wave of Romanians and Bulgarians.

[interlagos]

Let me know how long this model will last:

"Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on.  The only condition is citizenship and/or residency.

You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional."

When my country will send around 1 million gypsy your way.
There are people in villages near my town who refuse to work for 500 euros because they can get half that amount from social welfare and do nothing. And to be sure they get that they make around 5-8 kids /generation.

It would take a small percent of population to engineer and operate the machinery/robots, that would produce most of the things that society needs. Add to this almost free and clean energy sources and you will understand that "you need to work to survive" mantra will soon fade away.

Or do you suggest that most of the human population needs to die in poverty, while robots do all the job?

Let me tell you this , I am not racist , but living here I have to see the facts clearly...
The gypsy population exploded , more than doubling in the last 15 years. They all  live on social welfare in the best case scenario , the worst is.... (people living in western Europe have found out).
This guaranteed minimum wage has been exploited so much that we end up paying the same amount for those people compared to all retirement funds.
And the balance is going down by the minute.

People have begun to get lazy  , during the heavy rainfall and snow the soldiers tried to unblock the roads and get people out of their houses while the already rescued neighbors stand by with a bottle of alcohol and joke around.

I saw this failing so bad in my country , and you westerners will see it also.
Wait till you get hit by a wave of Romanians and Bulgarians.

I see that these things might not have worked in the past, but eventually they will work.
It's not about arbitrary choice of one ideology over another, it's just going to be a natural transition process and Bitcoin will play an important role in it.

The profit motive will start to fade away slowly, as people realize that they don't have to pay any interest on the money they use. People will see more value in contributing to their society, than turning a quick buck to be on time paying interest on their debt.

We are a moving away from "compete for survival" game
more towards "cooperate for prosperity" kinda game.

The world you imagine requires forced labor and mass extermination.  How long before you are sterilizing people you don't like because there isn't enough to go around?  I'll take productive competition thank you very much.

Quite the opposite. It is in the current model that you are forced to work to survive and with the advent of new tech most of the jobs will become obsolete leading to mass poverty and eventual extermination. So the transition to the new model will be natural, as it would make more and more sense as we go along with it.

I see human colonies on Mars in a decade or so... and you are talking about "not having enough for everyone", come on!

[kamant]

I'm very active in private charities, the only real charities. Redistribution of wealth is slavery, along with welfare.

[niothor]

I see that these things might not have worked in the past, but eventually they will work.
It's not about arbitrary choice of one ideology over another, it's just going to be a natural transition process and Bitcoin will play an important role in it.

So , things that have failed in the past and are falling right now , will work in the future because.... badgers will blossom?

[herzmeister]

Cross-post from another current thread:

Basic income is also discussed in Germany (esp. by the Pirate Party), although not that high in amount by far (maybe ~ EUR 800-1000 a month).

It would be economically viable if it would replace all other forms of already existing subsidies and would therefore dramatically reduce the related bureaucracy (if that would actually happen in practice is another question).

They made surveys and almost everybody said they would still go to work, so the argument "no one would work" is not viable.

It would take away existential fears, and people would prefer the work they actually would love to do, resulting in a boost of productivity.

None other than Milton Friedman proposed a negative income tax, which is a similar model.

It makes sense in a more and more automated society; production is unfortunately already quite centralized and controlled by a few corporations, and their profit and wealth does not easily flow back into society. Stock markets are corrupted, laymen cannot easily have their (literal) shares of this wealth.

The problem I see is, of course, the centralization that would be required to manage the collection and distribution of wealth, and the corruptible bureaucracy that would almost certainly come with that. States (and central banks) can't even manage money supply, as we all know.

Maybe a more libertarian-compatible approach would be to try this model in several independent city states (for which inhabitants would simply own shares) and see how it would work out.

An alternative might be a more syndicalist model: People own shares of the means of production directly, similar to how it's done at Mondragón: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-obHJfTaQvw

[niothor]

Wait till the gypsy population explodes in Germany also.
Tell those guys to work , because it's fun.

UBI failed for 20 years in Romania and that with 100 euros /month.
It will fail so hard at 800 euros/month those promoting it should eat s*** to mask the smell of the nonsense they sprout.