Criminal Lawsuit against BFL in Germany [in progress]

[Moogle]

I cant release all details yet. BFL got a german version of their website and through  that their german sales apply to german laws. They get busted in germany if they have the ass to fly over to the court.

If you can't release any details why did you start this topic now? Why not when you can and have thongs to show?
I for one am glad to see this happening though! Hope this ain't just hot air!

[candoo]

She is not the only one who prepares a lawsuit against bfl.

[PsychoticBoy]

She is not the only one who prepares a lawsuit against bfl.

Who is the second loser? uhhh loser of the (future, but I highly doubt it will ever come that far) Lawsuit.

[Pinwheel]

What you mean ? We can take back our money from bfl

How? As far as I know they dont refund anymore nor do they deliver

I got my BFL 60ghs miner today

[papaminer]

I think it is about time that someone takes up on this...

i am getting sick on these pre-orders...

if u have stuff stocked... sell it... if not.. don't sell it...

[SgtSpike]

I think it is about time that someone takes up on this...

i am getting sick on these pre-orders...

if u have stuff stocked... sell it... if not.. don't sell it...

If you don't like pre-orders, don't buy them.  Some people like/want pre-orders though.

What you mean ? We can take back our money from bfl

How? As far as I know they dont refund anymore nor do they deliver

I got my BFL 60ghs miner today

Likewise, I received my two a couple days ago.  They do deliver.

[papaminer]

seriously?

I was a customer of bfl as well... I have 6 fpga... so my conscience of bashing them is clean...

I did not do "2012" pre-order any asics for some trust reason... but these pre-orders really need to stop...

They are trying to manipulate here... it is very obvious that they are the ones getting rich here...

they get to do whatever they wants...

1) GET MONEY from preorders...

2) build miners...

3) Mine with them first until people gets mad and really want their orders...

4 ) deliver a few orders (so consumers gets some hype and buys MORE PRE-ORDERS)

5 ) Repeat step 1-4



I mean avalon did the right thing in their "FIRST BATCH"... now they're trying to do the same as what is BFL is doing...

One thing i really want to happen is.. have at least 5 companies manufacturing miners...

that way they'll have to compete to get the consumers business.... and not abuse their capability to build these miners...

[erk]

seriously?

I was a customer of bfl as well... I have 6 fpga... so my conscience of bashing them is clean...

I did not do "2012" pre-order any asics for some trust reason... but these pre-orders really need to stop...

They are trying to manipulate here... it is very obvious that they are the ones getting rich here...

they get to do whatever they wants...

1) GET MONEY from preorders...

2) build miners...

3) Mine with them first until people gets mad and really want their orders...

4 ) deliver a few orders (so consumers gets some hype and buys MORE PRE-ORDERS)

5 ) Repeat step 1-4



I mean avalon did the right thing in their "FIRST BATCH"... now they're trying to do the same as what is BFL is doing...

One thing i really want to happen is.. have at least 5 companies manufacturing miners...

that way they'll have to compete to get the consumers business.... and not abuse their capability to build these miners...

What has this got to do with the OP?

You realize it's a myth that you can make more money per hour mining with an ASIC than you can selling it?

If BFL ship 100 Jalapenos a day, that's around 300BTC worth, try mining 300BTC with 100 Jalapenos, it will take weeks, it's much more profitable to keep selling the units.

[SgtSpike]

seriously?

I was a customer of bfl as well... I have 6 fpga... so my conscience of bashing them is clean...

I did not do "2012" pre-order any asics for some trust reason... but these pre-orders really need to stop...

They are trying to manipulate here... it is very obvious that they are the ones getting rich here...

they get to do whatever they wants...

1) GET MONEY from preorders...

2) build miners...

3) Mine with them first until people gets mad and really want their orders...

4 ) deliver a few orders (so consumers gets some hype and buys MORE PRE-ORDERS)

5 ) Repeat step 1-4

I mean avalon did the right thing in their "FIRST BATCH"... now they're trying to do the same as what is BFL is doing...

One thing i really want to happen is.. have at least 5 companies manufacturing miners...

that way they'll have to compete to get the consumers business.... and not abuse their capability to build these miners...

I still don't quite understand what your complaint is.

If you don't like BFL, don't order from them.  If you don't like Avalon, don't order from them.  If you don't like pre-orders, don't pre-order anything.

Your steps 1-4 are not at all obvious, and simply conjecture based upon the little evidence you can see from looking at the company as an outsider.  There is no proof of your accusations.

[WuLabsWuTecH]

Most of this thread is FUD to try and gain a competitive advantage for other ASIC miners.

Realistically, the only laws I have seen BFL possibly break so far, that they could actually get in trouble for, is the refusal to refund, as Kansas, where BFL are located, has some reasonably strict consumer laws about that kind of thing. But you would have to file a complaint in Kansas, not Germany!

Yeah, it seems that some people here either need a basic geography or basic law lesson.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if this never gets past the filing stage because the German courts rule that they don't have jurisdiction.  In order for any entity to be charged criminally, it has to be subject to the criminal statutes of the jurisdiction the court presides over.  Filing criminal charges in Germany for something that happened in the US would get thrown out very quickly.

OP, think of it this way.  You are in Germany, and decide to steal a car.  Here in the US, the DA of NY decides to file Grand Theft Auto charges against you in the NY District Court.  Does this make any sense to you?

[WuLabsWuTecH]

I think it is about time that someone takes up on this...

i am getting sick on these pre-orders...

if u have stuff stocked... sell it... if not.. don't sell it...

Pre orders are not the problem.  I do a pre order every day at the deli counter for my sandwich.  I pay the cashier and about 5-15 minutes later, I get my sandwich.  Anytime you order a Pizza online and pay for it before you go pick it up or it gets delivered is a pre-order.  I have a pre-order out at gamestop for GTA V.  Many of my friends have Preorders for the PS4 (was going to say xbox one but then I realized no one preordered the xbox one... :p )

The problem is a pre-order that fails to meet the date of delivery by more than a small margin of error.  If my sandwich take an extra 5 minutes, I might be grumpy, but I'm not mad.  But with the ASIC pre orders, the problem is both not being able to meet their own timelines and poor customer service.  Back to the sandwich analogy, we're at the equivalent of me waiting about 3 hours for my sandwich that was promised in 15 minutes now.  But even that's not the problem.  If the cashier is honest with me and says, "hey, our oven broke and we're not going to get your order out for an hour, would you like a refund?" I would either decide that the sandwich was worth waiting for, or take my money and go elsewhere.

The problem is no pre-orders, it's the fact that you have a bunch of people with no business or interpersonal skills trying to sell a product that has had some glitches, and no one has enough PR savvy to diffuse the situation.

[papaminer]

I think it is about time that someone takes up on this...

i am getting sick on these pre-orders...

if u have stuff stocked... sell it... if not.. don't sell it...

Pre orders are not the problem.  I do a pre order every day at the deli counter for my sandwich.  I pay the cashier and about 5-15 minutes later, I get my sandwich.  Anytime you order a Pizza online and pay for it before you go pick it up or it gets delivered is a pre-order.  I have a pre-order out at gamestop for GTA V.  Many of my friends have Preorders for the PS4 (was going to say xbox one but then I realized no one preordered the xbox one... :p )

The problem is a pre-order that fails to meet the date of delivery by more than a small margin of error.  If my sandwich take an extra 5 minutes, I might be grumpy, but I'm not mad.  But with the ASIC pre orders, the problem is both not being able to meet their own timelines and poor customer service.  Back to the sandwich analogy, we're at the equivalent of me waiting about 3 hours for my sandwich that was promised in 15 minutes now.  But even that's not the problem.  If the cashier is honest with me and says, "hey, our oven broke and we're not going to get your order out for an hour, would you like a refund?" I would either decide that the sandwich was worth waiting for, or take my money and go elsewhere.

The problem is no pre-orders, it's the fact that you have a bunch of people with no business or interpersonal skills trying to sell a product that has had some glitches, and no one has enough PR savvy to diffuse the situation.

at first I would have agreed on your point... however.. I remember those thread here about them "MINING" with customers miners...
(yep... there were proof/images/screenshots that both BFL/AVALON DID MINE using customers miners)

and "THEM"... telling something else... like they have some problem in this area, in that area, and etc... while still mining and delaying the delivery...

now that changes the whole "pre-order is not the problem"....

in short...

they took the customers money... build a product... and "burn test" that product and somewhere in the road that burntest  btc goes into their wallet... so nope... that's no longer a pre-order scheme...

if you pre-order a pizza:
company takes your money via phone or internet...
they make a pizza... (both parties wait for it to be done)
deliver the pizza... (both parties wait for it to be done)
end of transaction...

Question: Should the company that makes the pizza takes/eats a slice of a pizza before they deliver it?
Answer: "NO! at the time the product was done... it should already be considered CUSTOMERS PROPERTY! SO DON'T TOUCH!"

[SgtSpike]

(yep... there were proof/images/screenshots that both BFL/AVALON DID MINE using customers miners)

Care to share said proof?  I remember seeing rather blatant proof of Avalon doing it (dusty fans, etc), but not BFL, at least beyond testing prototypes and doing the 24 hr burn-in.

[papaminer]

(yep... there were proof/images/screenshots that both BFL/AVALON DID MINE using customers miners)

Care to share said proof?  I remember seeing rather blatant proof of Avalon doing it (dusty fans, etc), but not BFL, at least beyond testing prototypes and doing the 24 hr burn-in.

there were a few threads...

I do not have them bookmarked... so yeah I cannot just give the link...

but from inside my mind...

here it goes..
========================================================
BFL
========================================================
there was a thread talking about BFL mining with customers miner...

showing a heat map around the globe - texas... showing it was the most/heavily (dnt really remember the exact words).. but showing that in BFL's office/hq has the highest ghz/TH in terms of mining...

disclaimer:
sorry if that is very confusing... lol... I am just trying to put up whats inside my head... but I can assure you.. there was a few threads about that... I just don't have the time to search for it... but i know "I READ IT"... and from what i understood they mined with customers miners...


========================================================
AVALON
========================================================
there was a thread in one of avalon's customer...

the person got his miner.. and there was a setting in the miner... it mined a "FEW HUNDRED" bitcoins... and that wallet address was tracked and found to have a few more...

if you burn test a miner it should only generate few bitcoins... like 1 or 10 or atleast less than 20 bitcoins? NOT 100+ bitcoins...

disclaimer:
sorry if that is very confusing... lol... I am just trying to put up whats inside my head... but I can assure you.. there was a few threads about that... I just don't have the time to search for it... but i know "I READ IT"... and from what i understood they mined with customers miners...

[shitaifan2013]

i never thought i would defend bfl, but i think you got confused there.

wasn't that big node on this network globe only showing the pool(eligius?) operated in that area?

still doesn't rule out the possibility of costumer asics running there too, but it is no real proof.

[SgtSpike]

========================================================
BFL
========================================================
there was a thread talking about BFL mining with customers miner...

showing a heat map around the globe - texas... showing it was the most/heavily (dnt really remember the exact words).. but showing that in BFL's office/hq has the highest ghz/TH in terms of mining...

disclaimer:
sorry if that is very confusing... lol... I am just trying to put up whats inside my head... but I can assure you.. there was a few threads about that... I just don't have the time to search for it... but i know "I READ IT"... and from what i understood they mined with customers miners...

Did you know that Josh hosts customer rigs, and had a pool hosted as well (eligus)?  It's not BFL mining on customer rigs - it's customer rigs being hosted at a given pool.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showwiki.php?title=FAQ:MiniRig+SC+and+Single+SC+Hosting

When ordering equipment from Butterfly Labs, you have the option of hosting your equipment locally with one of our affiliate data centers. While BFL does not host equipment directly, we do work with local providers to place your equipment.

Currently, we work with a company called J. Morgan and Associates, which will host your equipment at their facilities. The current cost structure for hosting is:

    MiniRig SC: $625 per month, per rig
    50 GH/s, 60 GH/s $100 per month, per unit

[Pinwheel]

(yep... there were proof/images/screenshots that both BFL/AVALON DID MINE using customers miners)

Care to share said proof?  I remember seeing rather blatant proof of Avalon doing it (dusty fans, etc), but not BFL, at least beyond testing prototypes and doing the 24 hr burn-in.

my single was not even tested, I know very well how new electronics smells when fired first time. That was just new.
Some people searching for shit everywhere, if they not able to find any they will produce some. Culture of BS.

[WuLabsWuTecH]

I think it is about time that someone takes up on this...

i am getting sick on these pre-orders...

if u have stuff stocked... sell it... if not.. don't sell it...

Pre orders are not the problem.  I do a pre order every day at the deli counter for my sandwich.  I pay the cashier and about 5-15 minutes later, I get my sandwich.  Anytime you order a Pizza online and pay for it before you go pick it up or it gets delivered is a pre-order.  I have a pre-order out at gamestop for GTA V.  Many of my friends have Preorders for the PS4 (was going to say xbox one but then I realized no one preordered the xbox one... :p )

The problem is a pre-order that fails to meet the date of delivery by more than a small margin of error.  If my sandwich take an extra 5 minutes, I might be grumpy, but I'm not mad.  But with the ASIC pre orders, the problem is both not being able to meet their own timelines and poor customer service.  Back to the sandwich analogy, we're at the equivalent of me waiting about 3 hours for my sandwich that was promised in 15 minutes now.  But even that's not the problem.  If the cashier is honest with me and says, "hey, our oven broke and we're not going to get your order out for an hour, would you like a refund?" I would either decide that the sandwich was worth waiting for, or take my money and go elsewhere.

The problem is no pre-orders, it's the fact that you have a bunch of people with no business or interpersonal skills trying to sell a product that has had some glitches, and no one has enough PR savvy to diffuse the situation.

at first I would have agreed on your point... however.. I remember those thread here about them "MINING" with customers miners...
(yep... there were proof/images/screenshots that both BFL/AVALON DID MINE using customers miners)

and "THEM"... telling something else... like they have some problem in this area, in that area, and etc... while still mining and delaying the delivery...

now that changes the whole "pre-order is not the problem"....

in short...

they took the customers money... build a product... and "burn test" that product and somewhere in the road that burntest  btc goes into their wallet... so nope... that's no longer a pre-order scheme...

if you pre-order a pizza:
company takes your money via phone or internet...
they make a pizza... (both parties wait for it to be done)
deliver the pizza... (both parties wait for it to be done)
end of transaction...

Question: Should the company that makes the pizza takes/eats a slice of a pizza before they deliver it?
Answer: "NO! at the time the product was done... it should already be considered CUSTOMERS PROPERTY! SO DON'T TOUCH!"

I agree they they shouldn't eat your pizza or any slice of it first, and this is where the analogy does not match 100%.  By eating the pizza, they have altered your pizza.  By mining with your machine, they really haven't altered it that much.  Yeah, yeah, they put a little bit of wear and tear on it, but in the long run, not really that much.  I sell some little asic usb erupters on the side, and I test every single one of them for 24 hours before sending b/c I don't wanna deal with sending bad ones out and having returns.  Does this mean I'm eating some of my customer's pizza?  It's a fine line for sure, but I personally don't think I'm doing anything wrong.

[greyhawk]

By eating the pizza, they have altered your pizza. 

I have altered your pizza. Pray I do not alter it further.

[WuLabsWuTecH]

By eating the pizza, they have altered your pizza. 

I have altered your pizza. Pray I do not alter it further.

Still post stalking me I see!

I promised to keep my hands off of you!  You should keep your hands off my pizza! :p