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Author Topic: Bitcoin as Store of Value - Not Sustainable  (Read 406 times)
ulhaq (OP)
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January 23, 2018, 06:18:42 PM
 #21

the idea is by the time all is mined, mining would be based on tx fees ... in the future if 7B people use it ... there would always be transactions even if 90% are holding .. 10% of 7B people would transact thus giving miners an income to operate.

This is wishful thinking. How do we know that there would be enough transaction fees (not just transactions) to give miners enough income to operate? No one so far as been able to give any hard numbers. In fact, someone published a paper demonstrating that mathematically, the fees-only model cannot support itself.
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imapessimist
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January 23, 2018, 06:21:58 PM
 #22

I don't see how the 21million cap can possibly be kept to.  If people want Bitcoin to be the main crypto currency then it would be impossible.  There will be a few people controlling the whole global economy.  Though maybe there is now.  So it will be the same only with different people.  I don't think Bitcoin can survive unless it changes drastically. But nobody can say for sure.
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January 24, 2018, 08:01:15 AM
 #23

I don't see how the 21million cap can possibly be kept to.  If people want Bitcoin to be the main crypto currency then it would be impossible.  There will be a few people controlling the whole global economy.  Though maybe there is now.  So it will be the same only with different people.  I don't think Bitcoin can survive unless it changes drastically. But nobody can say for sure.
It won't be impossible with a 21 million dollar cap. You do know that the coin can get spent in decimals? That's a lot of numbers.

 
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January 24, 2018, 08:16:03 AM
 #24

I think that if there were to be more than 21 million, minus what ever has been lost forever over the years it would have a detrimental affect to the value of bitcoin. Yes hodling isn't the answer either as for bitcoin to truly flourish as a currency it has to be spent and not just transactions from trading.

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January 24, 2018, 12:47:05 PM
 #25

I hear more and more by people that they consider bitcoin more of a store of value (eg, gold replacement) than as a currency, especially as the transaction fees go up. I have also heard many people say that even if bitcoin is only used as a store of value, and not as a currency, it has utility.

But this is not sustainable. Imagine bitcoin prices continue to increase and eventually all the coins are mined. There are not many transfers because people are mainly hoarding. Thus not much transaction fees, which is the only source of income for miners. Hash power reduces dramatically, and so network security deteriorates.

It seems to me that the only solution would be for bitcoins to be perpetually made available (no limit at 21 million).

If your saying increasing the supply is the solution(correct me if I am wrong, that won't be happening. First, the Bitcoin was set to only be 21M and Second, increasing the supply will mean decreasing the value of it in the market which I think all of the investors will not agree with.

You have it backwards. If it is ONLY used as a store of value, and the supply is limited to 21 million, then the value on the market will decrease, possibly going to zero. The only way that bitcoin can survive is to increase their supply. Read the above posts in this thread. What people think is going to happen if they increase the supply is irrelevant. The market wins in the end.

Of course it is always important to consider what people would think if the "VALUE" would decrease because of the increase in supply. This had been proposed long before but the public have not accepted because it will surely undermine the market value of BTC.
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January 24, 2018, 12:58:45 PM
 #26

You're starting with the assumption that everyone would be using Bitcoin purely as a store of value. This, in my opinion, is extremely unlikely to happen on such a large scale that it woulds massively impact the number of transactions being sent with Bitcoin.

Even if Bitcoin was mainly used as a store of value, you'd still have people using it either for short term or for long term storage.
If used for short term storage, there would still be enough transactions to pay for mining fees.

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January 25, 2018, 01:50:41 AM
 #27

I agree with you on the problem you raise, but not on the solution. Bitcoin as a store of value is a temporary madness which cannot last forever. The reason which makes this madness "normal" is that the mainstream finance has become even more mad and even more disconnected from reality. Therefore Bitcoin is a sort of "lesser madness" compared with the fantasyland of mainstream finance. Both of them cannot last forever. It is not clear which would collapse first though. As for the solution you propose, making more Bitcoins is not necessary, since there are more an more new altcoins which cover the function of "more bitcoins", supplying more assets that can be used as a store of value.

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January 25, 2018, 02:22:04 PM
 #28

The problem with changes is acceptance just look what happened to segwit and segwit2x.
ulhaq (OP)
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January 25, 2018, 04:56:04 PM
 #29

You're starting with the assumption that everyone would be using Bitcoin purely as a store of value. This, in my opinion, is extremely unlikely to happen on such a large scale that it woulds massively impact the number of transactions being sent with Bitcoin.

Yes, I am starting with that assumption, which I did not come up with, but was responding to.


Even if Bitcoin was mainly used as a store of value, you'd still have people using it either for short term or for long term storage.
If used for short term storage, there would still be enough transactions to pay for mining fees.

And the basis of this is what? According to this paper https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~smattw/CKWN-CCS16.pdf transaction fees are not going to be enough to support the network.
I agree with you on the problem you raise, but not on the solution. Bitcoin as a store of value is a temporary madness which cannot last forever. The reason which makes this madness "normal" is that the mainstream finance has become even more mad and even more disconnected from reality. Therefore Bitcoin is a sort of "lesser madness" compared with the fantasyland of mainstream finance. Both of them cannot last forever. It is not clear which would collapse first though. As for the solution you propose, making more Bitcoins is not necessary, since there are more an more new altcoins which cover the function of "more bitcoins", supplying more assets that can be used as a store of value.

I disagree with this because if altcoins turn out to be superior to bitcoin in terms of store of value, then people will shift out of bitcoin, not buy altcoins in addition to bitcoin.
I hear more and more by people that they consider bitcoin more of a store of value (eg, gold replacement) than as a currency, especially as the transaction fees go up. I have also heard many people say that even if bitcoin is only used as a store of value, and not as a currency, it has utility.

But this is not sustainable. Imagine bitcoin prices continue to increase and eventually all the coins are mined. There are not many transfers because people are mainly hoarding. Thus not much transaction fees, which is the only source of income for miners. Hash power reduces dramatically, and so network security deteriorates.

It seems to me that the only solution would be for bitcoins to be perpetually made available (no limit at 21 million).

If your saying increasing the supply is the solution(correct me if I am wrong, that won't be happening. First, the Bitcoin was set to only be 21M and Second, increasing the supply will mean decreasing the value of it in the market which I think all of the investors will not agree with.

You have it backwards. If it is ONLY used as a store of value, and the supply is limited to 21 million, then the value on the market will decrease, possibly going to zero. The only way that bitcoin can survive is to increase their supply. Read the above posts in this thread. What people think is going to happen if they increase the supply is irrelevant. The market wins in the end.

Of course it is always important to consider what people would think if the "VALUE" would decrease because of the increase in supply. This had been proposed long before but the public have not accepted because it will surely undermine the market value of BTC.

You mean the bitcoin public have not accepted it, not the general public. But the bitcoin community is very insulated in terms of economics and exposure to any ideas outside of crypto. It "surely" does not undermine the market value of BTC.
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