Donation to help ButterflyLabs to ship faster

[mah87]

Mod edit: removed address. Begging is not allowed here.

Donate! Donate!

So it's gonna come quicker!

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[polarhei]

It depends what you have sent, and the purpose. If using bitcoin for more bitcoin, then this may be possible that there is no way to blast the company.

[mah87]

They lied several time about release date.
They lied about power consumption.
They lied about shipping order.


That's a lot.

[mgio]

I think people are waiting until they've received their hardware to sue. No reason to sue a company, have them go out of business, and not get anything in return.

If you can prove that they didn't actually believe that they would ship in a few weeks back in October and again back in Jan/Feb when they actually announced a shipping date, then you would have a decent claim of fraud against them. Proving that is not completely though. They can play dumb and say they actually believed it would be done in time. Maybe since they didn't actually even have prototype ASICs at that point you'd have a good case. I expect there may be some class action lawsuits starting around the time they finish shipping their pre-orders or when it looks like they have stopped shipping altogether, whichever happens first.

[worldinacoin]

No point at all, you may get nothing from them even if you win and the litigation fees will kill u

[mah87]

No point at all, you may get nothing from them even if you win and the litigation fees will kill u

that's why we could attempt common attack

[hayek]

You do realize that if you ordered from them they will, effectively, be using your money to hire their defense/legal time and fight you.


You will literally be paying for both sides. The only one who wins is the government.


Want to get back at them? Don't buy their shitty products anymore. Yeah, that stings. It stings me too. But I feel good knowing anything that Jody asshole does in the bitcoin community for the rest of his life will be black balled. That's a fate worse than getting sued

[HermesConrad]

That would only be true if it weren't as easy as starting a new handle... If you guys have actual names/actual incorporated businesses I'd say go for it, you should all start individual claims in small claims court which is both easy and affordable, that or get enough of you burned folks together with a lawyer and discuss a percentage the lawyer would take in the event of a win.. This way the lawyer would do the actual case for free, though this might be more tricky. Either way the best thing to do right now is wait.. Give them a few more months, if you are dead certain they aren't going to send you shit ever then pull the trigger.

[philipma1957]

I have 2 orders on order just jalapenos. total of 4. older orders but still not that old.  As a complete order person of only jalapenos I would be inclined to want to sue anyone that sues that does not have jalapenos on order.  ie a singles little singles and or mini rig guy.  

 

  Not being an assh@le  but from the viewpoint of some one that cancelled all orders except jalapeños when bfl still allowed orders to be cancelled. My case would be you knew that they were only producing jallepenos they let you know this and they offered you the chance to bail.  This is a fact. I bailed on all but the jalapenos. So you decided not to bail and lost. So now you are looking to f up bfl for all of us that bailed on all but the jalapenos. Since the fact exists beyond any question that BFL gave you the chance to bail and they did do this in Apr/May. MY guess is you would a lose a lawsuit against bfl and anyone that fails to get a jalapeño due to your lawsuit would win a lawsuit against you for filing a frivolous lawsuit.

 If  you understand a bit of law my premise could win.  Once again it shows that BFL is really smart at the ins and outs of the law.  Right now customers are in two camps. Those with all jalapeños or enough and those with no  jalapeños or to few.  
  So they have divided the customer base into winners like me that a did more then 1 separate order of gear.  I did 4 orders 2 with jalapenos and 2 with  little singles . I further cancelled the little singles  when given the chance.    The court will look on those that did not do what I did  as not doing due diligence and would find against the lawsuit.

I know this sounds like I am saying you guys all f'd up and were not as smart as I was. I am not but I think a court would find that way. BFL gave everyone a chance to cancel everyone back in apr or may. So those that did not cancel f'd up. Your best chance of suing now is waiting until you get gear and hoping it is a pos you can sue for that in small claims court.

[mah87]

I have 2 orders on order just jalapenos. total of 4. older orders but still not that old.  As a complete order person of only jalapenos I would be inclined to want to sue anyone that sues that does not have jalapenos on order.  ie a singles little singles and or mini rig guy.  

 

  Not being an assh@le  but from the viewpoint of some one that cancelled all orders except jalapeños when bfl still allowed orders to be cancelled. My case would be you knew that they were only producing jallepenos they let you know this and they offered you the chance to bail.  This is a fact. I bailed on all but the jalapenos. So you decided not to bail and lost. So now you are looking to f up bfl for all of us that bailed on all but the jalapenos. Since the fact exists beyond any question that BFL gave you the chance to bail and they did do this in Apr/May. MY guess is you would a lose a lawsuit against bfl and anyone that fails to get a jalapeño due to your lawsuit would win a lawsuit against you for filing a frivolous lawsuit.

 If  you understand a bit of law my premise could win.  Once again it shows that BFL is really smart at the ins and outs of the law.  Right now customers are in two camps. Those with all jalapeños or enough and those with no  jalapeños or to few.  
  So they have divided the customer base into winners like me that a did more then 1 separate order of gear.  I did 4 orders 2 with jalapenos and 2 with  little singles . I further cancelled the little singles  when given the chance.    The court will look on those that did not do what I did  as not doing due diligence and would find against the lawsuit.

I know this sounds like I am saying you guys all f'd up and were not as smart as I was. I am not but I think a court would find that way. BFL gave everyone a chance to cancel everyone back in apr or may. So those that did not cancel f'd up. Your best chance of suing now is waiting until you get gear and hoping it is a pos you can sue for that in small claims court.

OK , let's say you were smart enough to anticipate BFL abuse strategy. You are smart, really smart, "genius" is more appropriate actually.

Oh wait did I say abuse ? All I see is that you support BFL for being good at scamming. Your post is dumb, selfish an irrelevant.

[wlwesq]

I'm an attorney, but I don't practice in the area of commercial litigation like this, so I don't want to comment on a topic I'm not qualified to discuss.

But here is another thought: You might be better off marshaling your forces to file complaints with the Federal Trade Commission and your state attorney general offices that have consumer protection/fraud divisions. There's no cost to doing so. The FTC or state AG can opt to not do anything (they get A LOT of fraud complaints each day and have to figure out how to best use their limited resources).

The only point of suing BFL would be to recover money from them. If BFL has been running a scam, then the money is probably long gone. You could end up with a nice judgment that's worth the paper it's printed on. I have several clients with judgments that we'll never be able to collect. It can be a waste of time and money.

Also, don't waste your time suing BFL in small claims court unless it's in the jurisdiction where BFL is. They are located in Kansas. If I sued them here in Indiana, I could get a default judgment against them, but then I need to find a way to get that judgment registered in Kansas so it becomes a Kansas judgment.

I understand the desire to go after BFL for what appears to be a scam (maybe it is, maybe it isn't). Just be aware of the practical problems with doing it before making the commitment to launch a lawsuit.

[mah87]

I'm an attorney, but I don't practice in the area of commercial litigation like this, so I don't want to comment on a topic I'm not qualified to discuss.

But here is another thought: You might be better off marshaling your forces to file complaints with the Federal Trade Commission and your state attorney general offices that have consumer protection/fraud divisions. There's no cost to doing so. The FTC or state AG can opt to not do anything (they get A LOT of fraud complaints each day and have to figure out how to best use their limited resources).

The only point of suing BFL would be to recover money from them. If BFL has been running a scam, then the money is probably long gone. You could end up with a nice judgment that's worth the paper it's printed on. I have several clients with judgments that we'll never be able to collect. It can be a waste of time and money.

Also, don't waste your time suing BFL in small claims court unless it's in the jurisdiction where BFL is. They are located in Kansas. If I sued them here in Indiana, I could get a default judgment against them, but then I need to find a way to get that judgment registered in Kansas so it becomes a Kansas judgment.

I understand the desire to go after BFL for what appears to be a scam (maybe it is, maybe it isn't). Just be aware of the practical problems with doing it before making the commitment to launch a lawsuit.

We are well aware that it won't be easy but how much time should we wait being fucked like that ?
Thank you for your support and information. Please feel free to post anything useful.

[wlwesq]

We are well aware that it won't be easy but how much time should we wait being fucked like that ?
Thank you for your support and information. Please feel free to post anything useful.

I hope I didn't sound like I was suggesting people wait. My hope was to explain that filing a lawsuit may not accomplish much, but seeking help from the FTC and state attorneys general might be a bit more productive. For example, although the regulators might not be able to get any money back, they can ask for orders that prohibit the individuals involved in BFL from ever being owners of similar businesses in the future (depending on the laws in your particular jurisdiction).

As for timing, I would think you should file any complaints with regulatory agencies sooner rather than later.

No legal approach here is going to be entirely satisfying, but I think if you're going to act you should focus energy in ways that may accomplish more in the end.

I should also state here that I'm not representing anyone, not providing legal advice, and you should be aware that there are laws that can limit your rights to file a lawsuit if not filed within a certain time. Filing complaints with FTC or attorneys general will not extend the deadlines the law imposes. (I hate sounding like a lawyer, but my malpractice carrier would crap if I didn't say that stuff.)

[cdog]

I have an idea, how about instead of spending time and money trying to get them out of business, we wait until they deliver our products.

Just an idea.

[wlwesq]

I do have one question (not arguing, just asking).

How certain is it that BFL is a scam? The reason I ask is that they are paying for advertising on various BTC-related sites still. Part of me thinks that if they were a scam, they wouldn't continue to advertise. (On the other hand, by advertising a scammer can look legit--I know, it cuts both ways).

I'm not disputing anyone's feelings or conclusions about BFL. Just asking rhetorical questions that could come up in a court case.

[Kinetic915]

No offense to anyone here, but I aalllllmoooossttt bought BFL products back in April.  So so glad I didnt.

[mah87]

No offense to anyone here, but I aalllllmoooossttt bought BFL products back in April.  So so glad I didnt.

you did well.

[GodHatesFigs]

No offense to anyone here, but I aalllllmoooossttt bought BFL products back in April.  So so glad I didnt.

+1

[tonto]

I got my Jalapeño yesterday.  I had to chase down the postman because my work was closed (had it shipped to work).  The postman was cool, too.
 
I have another Jalapeño on order that I placed a month after this one, so hopefully I'll see it "soon."  My single I ordered I probably won't see for a while. 
 
I'm slightly miffed I missed the bitcoin boom once the Avalon asics hit the network, but oh well, I maybe can finally "retire" my Radeon 7970s and start gaming again

[Ridicuss]

 I am not as versed in BTC as most around here, so forgive me if my next statement is ignorant.
So you sue BFL and win. What do you get?
As stated above they defend themselves with your money.
But whats to keep them from not keeping all their monies in fiat. It could all be dispersed into the great bitcoin universe where you will never see anything.
Company files Chapter whatever.?.
Closes doors..
Big cheese at BFL may now have a small fortune of BTC to draw from over time i.e. comfortable life forever.  You get nothing..
How far off base am I?