Carrying Hardware Wallets When Traveling Internationally

[stevegee58]

Send your wallet.dat by email. This way you don't need to carry anything

OMFG.  What horrible advice.

[Fancyax]

You don't have to declare that you have bitcoin on you because the laws still unclear. And you can avoid to carry a hardware wallet when you're travelling if there are potential risks, you can put a paper wallet in a book or just android wallet in you phone.

[AGD]

Send your wallet.dat by email. This way you don't need to carry anything

OMFG.  What horrible advice.

Explain.

[stevegee58]

Send your wallet.dat by email. This way you don't need to carry anything

OMFG.  What horrible advice.

Explain.

No problem.  Your wallet.dat contains your secret keys.  Your secret keys are the keys to your Bitcoin wealth and need to be protected.  The best protection is a paper wallet or a whole-drive encrypted computer - preferably Linux.

If your wallet.dat file is sitting in your inbox on some server it is *extremely* vulnerable to being found and copied.  Then it's game over.
You have absolutely no way of knowing how protected the mail server is or how honest the sysadmin is.  It's a crap shoot.

[Decoded]

My Nano Ses have hundreds of thousands of dollars stored in it. Would I travel overseas with them? No.

What I would do is deposit say $2000 into Poloniex, trade a little there, but use that as a spending wallet overseas. You are never carrying anything with you that can be taken or siezed besides your login.

Plus, poloniex's withdrawal fees are only 0.0001 BTC.

[bitart]

Send your wallet.dat by email. This way you don't need to carry anything

OMFG.  What horrible advice.

Explain.

What about sending it in a password protected zip file with a really strong password? Using a really common file name like IMG_0001.zip?  If sysadmin has luck and can spot that the zip file doesn't cointain a real picture but a wallet.dat, he won't be able to brute force the password soon. Just an idea

[squatter]

Are there many of you who travel internationally?  If you do, obviously you have your laptop as well for many people.  But i assume most of you travel with your nano ledger or trezor as well?  If so, i assume you don't have to declare you have over 10k on you right since its not a currency but an asset.  But also you aren't carrying bitcoin because the nano ledger is basically like your bank card which has money in it?  Has anyone been asked about it when flying internationally?

There's no legal precedent yet. Many people have taken the position that a bitcoin wallet doesn't establish possession of value (cash equivalent). Rather, that value is stored on the blockchain. What they possess is access to private keys that can move BTC on the blockchain.

It's a very interesting legal conundrum. A bitcoin address is not an "account" that is tied to a legal name or entity. For example, what happens if you hardware wallet has access to a private key that is also accessible by someone else? What if both of you are boarding the same flight? You can't both be carrying the USD cash equivalent of that BTC at the same time!

I'm sure that regulators will opine on this, though. The SEC recently said that cryptocurrency should be treated like cash, but that doesn't speak to this directly. In any case, I don't like to announce that I'm carrying cryptocurrency. Better to have an encrypted wallet on USB or something.

[AGD]

Send your wallet.dat by email. This way you don't need to carry anything

OMFG.  What horrible advice.

Explain.

No problem.  Your wallet.dat contains your secret keys.  Your secret keys are the keys to your Bitcoin wealth and need to be protected.  The best protection is a paper wallet or a whole-drive encrypted computer - preferably Linux.

If your wallet.dat file is sitting in your inbox on some server it is *extremely* vulnerable to being found and copied.  Then it's game over.
You have absolutely no way of knowing how protected the mail server is or how honest the sysadmin is.  It's a crap shoot.

How about encrypting the wallet with a strong password? You have so many posts, but you don't know, that you can protect your wallet with on board encryption, or if you want a second layer you put a GPG encryption on top. With that your knowledge EVERY of your wallets is at risk. You should immediately encrypt your wallet, because NOBODY will be able to take your Bitcoins then. Not even a sysadmin or a hacker or anybody else.
I can send you my filled wallet.dat and you will not be able to do more than 'view only'.

I can even post it here if you want. We can make a bet: If you can't get the private key of a wallet with 2 BTC within a certain time frame, you pay me 1 BTC. Deal?

[stevegee58]

Send your wallet.dat by email. This way you don't need to carry anything

OMFG.  What horrible advice.

Explain.

No problem.  Your wallet.dat contains your secret keys.  Your secret keys are the keys to your Bitcoin wealth and need to be protected.  The best protection is a paper wallet or a whole-drive encrypted computer - preferably Linux.

If your wallet.dat file is sitting in your inbox on some server it is *extremely* vulnerable to being found and copied.  Then it's game over.
You have absolutely no way of knowing how protected the mail server is or how honest the sysadmin is.  It's a crap shoot.

How about encrypting the wallet with a strong password? You have so many posts, but you don't know, that you can protect your wallet with on board encryption, or if you want a second layer you put a GPG encryption on top. With that your knowledge EVERY of your wallets is at risk. You should immediately encrypt your wallet, because NOBODY will be able to take your Bitcoins then. Not even a sysadmin or a hacker or anybody else.
I can send you my filled wallet.dat and you will not be able to do more than 'view only'.

I can even post it here if you want. We can make a bet: If you can't get the private key of a wallet with 2 BTC within a certain time frame, you pay me 1 BTC. Deal?

Come now, let's not engage in personal attacks and dick measuring contests.

There are 2 main problems with the OP of this thread: Preventing your Bitcoin from being stolen and avoiding being detained at the border.
If you're looking for maximum security (and minimizing LE interaction) it's common knowledge that a layered approach is best:

• Why are you carrying all your Bitcoin with you internationally?  Are you planning on using it all?  If you're planning on using *some* Bitcoin, only take as much with you as you need.  Don't carry your entire hoard with you at all times.
• Your main Bitcoin hoard should be stored in an offline wallet.  If you think you might need to spend some of it, move some BTC to a hot wallet.  If it's stolen (or seized) at least the damage is limited.
• When you cross borders, especially into the US, you're subject to search.  This includes your phone and computer and yes, you'll be required to unlock it for the officer to poke around.  It's best to have *nothing* interesting on the phone/computer at all.
• Of course you can store an encrypted wallet.dat on a cloud server.  Is there evidence of your cloud storage on your compter?  If so the customs officer could require you to open that and explain what's there.  Yes, it sound unfair and a violation of your rights but almost anything goes at the border.
• Do you know how you'll answer customs questions about how much money you're carrying, or if you have Bitcoin?  Plausible deniability is the key.  If you lie but there's a Bitcoin client on your computer then you could be held at the border.  Better to have *nothing* that might raise questions on your computer and then deny all knowledge of Bitcoin.  Do not underestimate customs officers.  They are basically like police, trained to tell when people are honest, lying, or hiding something.  If they can't figure out something on your computer and you're being evasive, you *will* be detained while an IT inspector is brought in to look at your computer.

[buwaytress]

A lot of assumptions and a lot of suggestions. Probably the most important thing is to just practise good safety and security that you understand. Seen so many people already having problems using what they felt were secure options only to lose access because they didn't understand how to use/recover/restore.

If you're travelling and you need access to coins, then hardware isn't even the best option, I'd say. For coins I always use and need to be mobile, I use online services, as some people have also posted above. Yes, they're not that secure, yes, you still have to trust an intermediary, but for the convenience of access and low fees (someone said Polo only has 10k withdrawal fee, I also use similar services with standard low fees). They're easy to access, will save a lot in long term, and since I only risk a small amount, it's a risk I can live with.

For more significant amounts, for me that's in the thousands, simple seed can restore a wallet from anywhere I need to access them. Personally, hardware wallets are for permanent storage. Coins you want to hold and keep safe and secure, unlikely to be touched often. Why would you want to carry that around with you?

[AGD]

Send your wallet.dat by email. This way you don't need to carry anything

OMFG.  What horrible advice.

Explain.

No problem.  Your wallet.dat contains your secret keys.  Your secret keys are the keys to your Bitcoin wealth and need to be protected.  The best protection is a paper wallet or a whole-drive encrypted computer - preferably Linux.

If your wallet.dat file is sitting in your inbox on some server it is *extremely* vulnerable to being found and copied.  Then it's game over.
You have absolutely no way of knowing how protected the mail server is or how honest the sysadmin is.  It's a crap shoot.

How about encrypting the wallet with a strong password? You have so many posts, but you don't know, that you can protect your wallet with on board encryption, or if you want a second layer you put a GPG encryption on top. With that your knowledge EVERY of your wallets is at risk. You should immediately encrypt your wallet, because NOBODY will be able to take your Bitcoins then. Not even a sysadmin or a hacker or anybody else.
I can send you my filled wallet.dat and you will not be able to do more than 'view only'.

I can even post it here if you want. We can make a bet: If you can't get the private key of a wallet with 2 BTC within a certain time frame, you pay me 1 BTC. Deal?

Come now, let's not engage in personal attacks and dick measuring contests.

There are 2 main problems with the OP of this thread: Preventing your Bitcoin from being stolen and avoiding being detained at the border.
If you're looking for maximum security (and minimizing LE interaction) it's common knowledge that a layered approach is best:

• Why are you carrying all your Bitcoin with you internationally?  Are you planning on using it all?  If you're planning on using *some* Bitcoin, only take as much with you as you need.  Don't carry your entire hoard with you at all times.
• Your main Bitcoin hoard should be stored in an offline wallet.  If you think you might need to spend some of it, move some BTC to a hot wallet.  If it's stolen (or seized) at least the damage is limited.
• When you cross borders, especially into the US, you're subject to search.  This includes your phone and computer and yes, you'll be required to unlock it for the officer to poke around.  It's best to have *nothing* interesting on the phone/computer at all.
• Of course you can store an encrypted wallet.dat on a cloud server.  Is there evidence of your cloud storage on your compter?  If so the customs officer could require you to open that and explain what's there.  Yes, it sound unfair and a violation of your rights but almost anything goes at the border.
• Do you know how you'll answer customs questions about how much money you're carrying, or if you have Bitcoin?  Plausible deniability is the key.  If you lie but there's a Bitcoin client on your computer then you could be held at the border.  Better to have *nothing* that might raise questions on your computer and then deny all knowledge of Bitcoin.  Do not underestimate customs officers.  They are basically like police, trained to tell when people are honest, lying, or hiding something.  If they can't figure out something on your computer and you're being evasive, you *will* be detained while an IT inspector is brought in to look at your computer.

No dick contest, but simple facts. Send your encrypted wallet.dat to your own email address and feel free to do whatever you want. It is as secure as you want it to be and there will be no questions at all at any border.

[Lipe490]

I'd rather having my wallet.dat or my private key in a secure cloud service encripted. I do not own a ledger nano and I would be paranoid in carrying it like I carry my mobile to wherever I went. I stake some coins in my laptop and I have access to it from my work desktop and I check it twice a day. Even if you take all the safe measures you think you are not protected from hackers, I understand your point.

[stevegee58]

No dick contest, but simple facts. Send your encrypted wallet.dat to your own email address and feel free to do whatever you want. It is as secure as you want it to be and there will be no questions at all at any border.

I probably didn't express myself clearly enough.  You're right, a sufficiently well-encrypted wallet.dat file is safe.  But doing this alone is not a panacea to your security problems.  And your assertion "there will be no questions at all at any border" is only speculation.  If you're a European who's used to crossing European borders all the time then maybe you're right.  Entering the US is a whole different matter and can be downright draconian.  Making assumptions about US Customs is a big mistake.

[mOgliE]

Hi,

Good question.
Indeed I have travelled a lot in my life (and will do it again I guess), but such concern never reached my mind..

I actually think this is not important... for the moment. Because currently, if you are asking what you carry it is to avoid carrying "real" money (thus preventing drug dealers and others to easily clean up their money abroad). As far as I know, for individuals travelling this is just a basic information asked to avoid big scams.

Don't worry about your bitcoin for now! (But if you have the legal answer to such question, I really am interesed!)

[Gmk44]

Are there many of you who travel internationally?  If you do, obviously you have your laptop as well for many people.  But i assume most of you travel with your nano ledger or trezor as well?  If so, i assume you don't have to declare you have over 10k on you right since its not a currency but an asset.  But also you aren't carrying bitcoin because the nano ledger is basically like your bank card which has money in it?  Has anyone been asked about it when flying internationally?


Then again if you have a bitcoin wallet on your computer such as electrum or any similar ones, wouldn't that be the same thing as a nano ledger or trezor?  But the thing is the nano ledger looks like a keychain or usb but the trezor looks a bit different?  And also when you carry it, do you generally carry it as is or you put it in a box?

Why would you have to declare it, the nano ledger s and/or trezor is giving you access to the blockchain where your coins are stored.
You don't need to declare the ammount of fiat you have in the bank because you can log into your bank via your laptop either.

[whisee]

Are there many of you who travel internationally?  If you do, obviously you have your laptop as well for many people.  But i assume most of you travel with your nano ledger or trezor as well?  If so, i assume you don't have to declare you have over 10k on you right since its not a currency but an asset.  But also you aren't carrying bitcoin because the nano ledger is basically like your bank card which has money in it?  Has anyone been asked about it when flying internationally?


Then again if you have a bitcoin wallet on your computer such as electrum or any similar ones, wouldn't that be the same thing as a nano ledger or trezor?  But the thing is the nano ledger looks like a keychain or usb but the trezor looks a bit different?  And also when you carry it, do you generally carry it as is or you put it in a box?

Hardware wallet is amazing technology for who have more than 1 bitcoin

they can easy have more than 100,000$ with them daily without be worry

[shezu007]

Send your wallet.dat by email. This way you don't need to carry anything

Its very dangerous that carrying the hardware wallet when traveling internationally, because there is chance of the lost of your wallet and also there is chance that some body thief your wallet and you lost your all income in the wallet, Instead of it if you have crypto currency in your crypto wallet then the chance of the lost of the money and the chance of the thief of the money is go down to zero.

[PossibilityMiner]

I would not carry a hardware wallet though customs for sure and wouldn't want to take it through security either.  Who knows what some customs official or screener would make of it.    These aren't exactly the best and brightest.  I would (and have) however traveled with wallets encrypted on my phone or laptop. 

If either is stolen or seized your cryptos are still safe behind encryption.  Just make sure it is stout and resistant to sustained attack and obviously have backups at home.  Most importantly all some official or screener would know is that you have something encrypted on your phone or laptop vs a hardware wallet that almost certainly contains crypto.  Better seize that and make sure its not money laundering!

[btcjoin14]

I would not carry a hardware wallet though customs for sure and wouldn't want to take it through security either.  Who knows what some customs official or screener would make of it.    These aren't exactly the best and brightest.  I would (and have) however traveled with wallets encrypted on my phone or laptop. 

If either is stolen or seized your cryptos are still safe behind encryption.  Just make sure it is stout and resistant to sustained attack and obviously have backups at home.  Most importantly all some official or screener would know is that you have something encrypted on your phone or laptop vs a hardware wallet that almost certainly contains crypto.  Better seize that and make sure its not money laundering!

If they don't seize the hardware wallet then the person that owns the hardware wallet faces the risk of getting the information on that device deleted when it goes through an xray.

[AGD]

No dick contest, but simple facts. Send your encrypted wallet.dat to your own email address and feel free to do whatever you want. It is as secure as you want it to be and there will be no questions at all at any border.

I probably didn't express myself clearly enough.  You're right, a sufficiently well-encrypted wallet.dat file is safe.  But doing this alone is not a panacea to your security problems.  And your assertion "there will be no questions at all at any border" is only speculation.  If you're a European who's used to crossing European borders all the time then maybe you're right.  Entering the US is a whole different matter and can be downright draconian.  Making assumptions about US Customs is a big mistake.

Tell me what the US Customs would be able to do against that? Force you to reveal ALL of your emailadresses with passwords, because you COULD have a Bitcoin wallet in one of them? How would they do this? If they find a computer or storing device, they can do that, but without you carrying anything they will have a very hard time. It's just like forcing someone to reveal a possible existing Brainwallet. No chance, mate.