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Author Topic: PrimeCoin; What's the deal?  (Read 2282 times)
usahero
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July 19, 2013, 03:58:02 PM
 #21

Coin was initially interesting, because:

1. was created by established developer
2. announced on time with fair start for everyone
3. it was supposedly rewarding to early adopter
4. it was mined on cpu's. You could concurrently mine with gpu and cpu.
5. It was selling at relatively high prices on the forum market.

Coin later become bomb, because:
1. It is exchanged on 4 exchanges.
2. It is very fast.
3. Everyone likes pumps.
4. Profit!!



Does it have future? I think it has a bright future, but there will be some dips. I cannot predict at which price it will sell, the price is currently pretty high for a new coin. Smiley



vokain
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July 19, 2013, 04:09:47 PM
 #22

I'm curious of the efects of the network once difficulty gets really high and prime numbers to be found are insanely difficult to compute let alone verify by nodes to be efficient in any meaningful way.

http://bitcoinmagazine.com/primecoin-the-cryptocurrency-whose-mining-is-actually-useful/

Quote
In order to be a viable cryptocurrency, Primecoin needs a way to finely tune the difficulty of the proof of work; otherwise, new developments in technology or increased popularity may lead to new blocks being created too quickly for the blockchain to be stable or so slowly that transactions take hours to confirm. By themselves, prime chains do not provide enough granularity; a chain eight primes long may be a hundred times harder to find than a chain seven primes long. One option is to reward length, but that would make verification more difficult. The solution that Primecoin settled for is one based on the Fermat test. The Fermat test is a quick way of telling if a number is (very probably) a prime: raise any number (typically 2) to the power of a prime, subtract out the prime as many times as possible and see if you get the original number back. For example:

217 – 17 * 7710 = 2
223 – 23 * 364722 = 2

But:

221 – 21 * 99864 = 8

An alternative, and slightly better, formulation is to raise the number to the power of the prime minus one and see if you get one; this being true clearly implies the number passing the other test, and the other direction holds most of the time (one exception is that 3560 = 375 but 3561 = 3 (561 is not prime), but these become extremely rare as primes get bigger). Primecoin uses the p-1 test in combination with the Euler-Lagrange-Lifchitz test, which uses similar principles, to establish primality. So, the question is, how can one use this test to create granularity? That is, how can one distinguish between a chain 7.2 primes long and a chain 7.5 primes long? The answer is simple: look at the resulting value of the Fermat test of the first value in the chain not to be a prime; the lower it is, the larger the “fractional length”. For example, our chain of 2, 5, 11, 23, 47 has the next value 95, 294 modulo 95 (modulo being the mathematical term for the process of repeated subtraction used above) is 54, so the chain would have a length of 5 + (95 – 54) / 95 ~= 5.43. However, the chain 1531…24481 has the next value 48961 with a relatively low Fermat remainder of 1024, so the length would be 5 + (48961 – 1024) / 48961 ~= 5.97. In order for a prime chain to count as a valid proof of work, it must have a fractional length at least equal to the difficulty; as of the time of this writing, this parameter is floating around 7.1.

Since we do not want proofs of work to be reusable, Primecoin also adds another restriction. For the purposes of Primecoin, the “origin” of a bi-twin chain is defined as the average of the first pair, and for single Cunningham chains the origin is what the average of the first pair would be if the Cunningham chain’s twin also existed; for example, the origins of the two single Cunningham chains given above are 1530 and 3, respectively. The restriction is that the origin of a prime chain must be divisible by the hash of the block that the proof of work is for. Hash functions have the property that the only way to look for a value that has a particular hash is the computationally infeasible strategy of simply trying new values until you get a result that works; thus, the only way to generate valid proofs of work is to look for prime chains targeted to one block of which you already know the hash, and these chains would only ever be useful for that specific block.

Primecoin also adds a number of other innovations on the side:

Smooth difficulty adjustment – unlike Bitcoin, which adjusts its difficulty to exactly match the target rate of 1 block per 10 minutes every 2016 blocks (roughly two weeks), Primecoin adjusts its difficulty slightly every block, nudging it toward the target rate in an exponential decay pattern. For example, if network hash power (or rather, prime generation power) suddenly doubles, the next block would be 0.02% harder than the previous, increasing the amount of work required per block to 186.5% of the original after one week and 198.2% after two weeks, assuming no further mining power increases take place.
Very fast confirmations – unlike Bitcoin, where transactions take an average of ten minutes to confirm (eight minutes in practice since the difficulty must constantly catch up to increasing mining power), Primecoin blocks come at a rate of one per minute. This allows secure transactions to be made much more quickly; six confirmations may take fifty minutes in Bitcoin, but they take only six minutes in Primecoin. The underlying mathematics behind why six confirmations is a fairly safe threshold is independent of block confirmation time, so the Primecoin transaction at six confitmations is no less secure (it can be argued that attackers can make double-spending attempts ten times more frequently, but going up to just seven or eight confirmations more than makes up for this).
Self-adjusting block reward – Bitcoin is known for its controlled currency supply algorithm, which guarantees that only 21 million bitcoins will ever be generated, as well as specifying the rate at which these bitcoins will come out. Primecoin follows a different path. The number of primecoins (XPM) released per block is always equal to 999 divided by the square of the difficulty, a formula which should converge to some maximum if the difficulty increases linearly. Given that Moore’s Law states that computing power increases exponentially, and the effort it takes to find a prime chain is exponential in its length, that is quite likely to hold true.
mr_random
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July 19, 2013, 04:12:46 PM
 #23

^ Sunny has said previously that if the continuous difficulty adjustment responds too rapidly it can be exploited. However maybe he could increase it a little bit (50%?) without any harm..?
solracx
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July 19, 2013, 09:00:18 PM
 #24

I'm curious of the efects of the network once difficulty gets really high and prime numbers to be found are insanely difficult to compute let alone verify by nodes to be efficient in any meaningful way.

That's the 1,000 XPM question.... as you go from a chain of length N to a chain of length N+1, how much does the difficulty actually change?

I think I saw an estimate that difficulty 8 was 30x harder to find chains for than difficulty 7. (But verifying just means checking one more prime, so it's only 1/7 harder in that case.)

Hmmm.. if there are 30 less chains from 7 to 8 then it should still be 30 times harder to find a new chain.  I don't think the extra check reduces the difficulty by much. (Just increases the individual effort, but I don't think percentage wise it is much)

BTW did anyone perform timing as to where in the code it spends most of its time?

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mercSuey
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July 19, 2013, 09:17:26 PM
 #25

I'm curious of the efects of the network once difficulty gets really high and prime numbers to be found are insanely difficult to compute let alone verify by nodes to be efficient in any meaningful way.

This.

If we're not finding new (bigger) primes then isn't it possible to exploit the network?  But if indeed we're finding new primes, I don't see how the diff retarget algo can properly correlate with network hash rate growth eventually.  I even brought this up to Sunny King and I guess I worded my question in a way that Sunny misunderstood.  Nevertheless, this isn't innovative in the sense of finding new primes because it's not exhaustive.  For example, the sieve in ypool's jhPrimeMiner loads the primes in the first million positive integers.  That's only about 78k primes.  The more I look at it the more it just seems like XPM is using primes kind of like public keys for hashing new blocks to the block chain. 
Joerii
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July 19, 2013, 10:39:59 PM
 #26

There isn't enough data storage on earth, maybe not in the entire universe, to remember all primes, so finding new ones surely has to involve forgetting old ones at some point.

Primecoin though isn't looking for primes, it is looking some some fancy pattern/sequence of primes, I dunno though whether they too are so numerous we won't be able to remember them all.

Though if we only need remember on the blockchain those we found for the blockchain that isn't a problem for us; and maybe only bothering to remember same rare sequences is going to let science actually remember what is found instead of trying to find stuff it is only going to have to forget at some point when it runs out of memory/storage...

-MarkM-


You pretty much always lose me halfway through your post. Is it because you have a habit of rambling at the end or are you simply smarter then me ? Food for thought.

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July 19, 2013, 10:43:49 PM
 #27

Someone with a lot of BTC likes XPM.
markm
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July 19, 2013, 10:47:59 PM
Last edit: July 20, 2013, 02:12:14 AM by markm
 #28

There isn't enough data storage on earth, maybe not in the entire universe, to remember all primes

I didn't know there is a finite amount of primes.

That's indeed what's implied but i think he was only betrayed by the choice of words

OnT: I think Primecoin is a step in the right direction, i am bugged by the general pointlessness and waistness of mining cryptos. I am patiently waiting for a coin which can be actually useful and sets the miners in a cooperative spending of resources, currently this cooperativeness can only be achieved by mining in pools, which Primecoin lacks. But what i would like to see is this cooperation structuraly implemented, otherwise the waist in resources is crasy.

So maybe I should have written there is not an infinite amount of storage on Earth and maybe not in the universe.

I think I basically meant that we don't have enough compression / generation tools for primes yet to be able to practically be able to recall/regenerate them on demand. Maybe if we understood them better we'd have some kind of tool that would compress the information like the way various infinite series can be written in less than infinite amount of symbols. Calculus routinely adds up an infinite number of numbers, for example, whether or not the universe actually has room for that many numbers to actually be stored. It doesn't take in infinite amount of time to add them up, either.

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AgentME
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July 20, 2013, 02:02:13 AM
 #29

I'm curious of the efects of the network once difficulty gets really high and prime numbers to be found are insanely difficult to compute let alone verify by nodes to be efficient in any meaningful way.

This.

If we're not finding new (bigger) primes then isn't it possible to exploit the network?  But if indeed we're finding new primes, I don't see how the diff retarget algo can properly correlate with network hash rate growth eventually.  I even brought this up to Sunny King and I guess I worded my question in a way that Sunny misunderstood.  Nevertheless, this isn't innovative in the sense of finding new primes because it's not exhaustive.  For example, the sieve in ypool's jhPrimeMiner loads the primes in the first million positive integers.  That's only about 78k primes.  The more I look at it the more it just seems like XPM is using primes kind of like public keys for hashing new blocks to the block chain. 

Primecoin is about finding new prime chains, not about finding new primes. But I can't understand what else you're saying. The difficulty number corresponds to how long the prime chain has to be (and contains a percentage of how many prime chains of that length get rejected anyway, in order to smooth out the difficulty changes). It seems to work pretty well.
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April 28, 2018, 09:39:47 AM
 #30

So Whats the deal why did xpm pump 140%

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