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Author Topic: Wealth is unlimited.  (Read 9484 times)
Mageant
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July 05, 2011, 01:01:31 PM
 #41

I assume by "limitless" you actually mean "more than we human's could ever use"
Yes.

Cold fusion has never been achieved in any verified experiments.
Cold Fusion effects have appeared in hundreds of experiments. A leading NASA scientist (Dennis Bushnell) has also confirmed that Cold Fusion is real and the most promising future energy technology.

Vacuume energy, as far as we know, can not be harvested for 'free energy'.
That is what the governments and big energy companies want you to believe. Many inventors, engineers and scientists have proved otherwise. They are just not recognized by the established scientific journals and universities because they are also under the control of these same interests.

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david4dev
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July 05, 2011, 01:28:13 PM
 #42

Quote
Cold Fusion effects have appeared in hundreds of experiments. A leading NASA scientist (Dennis Bushnell) has also confirmed that Cold Fusion is real and the most promising future energy technology.

citation needed

Quote
That is what the governments and big energy companies want you to believe. Many inventors, engineers and scientists have proved otherwise. They are just not recognized by the established scientific journals and universities because they are also under the control of these same interests.

So any evidence that goes against what you say can be explained away by claiming that 'the powers' are planting false evidence / hiding the truth.

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Mageant
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July 05, 2011, 02:31:15 PM
 #43

Quote
Cold Fusion effects have appeared in hundreds of experiments. A leading NASA scientist (Dennis Bushnell) has also confirmed that Cold Fusion is real and the most promising future energy technology.

citation needed


Bushnell, Dennis M. (2011-04-23), "The Future of Energy (Interview with Dennis Bushnell, Chief Scientist of NASA Langley)", EV World: 04:24, retrieved 3 June 2011
http://www.evworld.com/evworld_audio/dennis_bushnell_part1.mp3

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kjj
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July 05, 2011, 03:30:26 PM
 #44

Vacuume energy, as far as we know, can not be harvested for 'free energy'.
That is what the governments and big energy companies want you to believe. Many inventors, engineers and scientists have proved otherwise. They are just not recognized by the established scientific journals and universities because they are also under the control of these same interests.

Actually, this is what our current understanding of the laws of physics wants us to believe.  Extracting useful energy from the ZPF would require overturning just about everything we know about energy.  And would be totally cool.

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david4dev
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July 05, 2011, 03:32:12 PM
 #45

Vacuume energy, as far as we know, can not be harvested for 'free energy'.
That is what the governments and big energy companies want you to believe. Many inventors, engineers and scientists have proved otherwise. They are just not recognized by the established scientific journals and universities because they are also under the control of these same interests.

Actually, this is what our current understanding of the laws of physics wants us to believe.  Extracting useful energy from the ZPF would require overturning just about everything we know about energy.  And would be totally cool.

And as far as we know, impossible.

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Aristotle
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July 05, 2011, 04:28:45 PM
 #46

1) Resources are limited
2) Wealth is extracted from resources (be it energy, materials, food)
3) Wealth is limited.

"Free energy" breaks the laws of thermodynamics.

Solar cells require a lot of (limited) rare metals. Ditto for batteries, wind turbines, and hydrogen fuel cells.  Every way of producing hydrogen is wasteful (it's not an energy source).

There is no free lunch.

The elephant in the room is arable land for food production.  We are close to reaching that limit already.  The amount of arable land is decreasing, and the need for it is increasing.  Not to mention all the (limited) fossil fuels that go into food production, and the damage to the environment when we cut down every forest on earth and try to turn them into farm land.

Anybody who thinks exponential growth is sustainable is a fool.

Population is limited by the Earth's carrying capacity.

I think humanity is at a crossroads.  Should be interesting.

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Fakeman
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July 05, 2011, 04:35:41 PM
 #47

The people who believe that wealth is not unlimited are the same people who think that if one person is becoming wealthly it is done so at the expense of others. This is the belief that encompasses the idea that, "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer." Which is totally false because the standard of living for any society is based on the amount of goods and services produced. So if someone is creating lots of wealth in the form of producing lots of goods and services then that person is making everyone's life better because we now have more goods and services to consume.

It's not the quantity of goods alone that improves quality of life. How are the masses of discarded low-quality goods piled in landfills improving anyone's quality of life?

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gonzas144
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July 05, 2011, 04:53:32 PM
 #48

The people who believe that wealth is not unlimited are the same people who think that if one person is becoming wealthly it is done so at the expense of others. This is the belief that encompasses the idea that, "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer." Which is totally false because the standard of living for any society is based on the amount of goods and services produced. So if someone is creating lots of wealth in the form of producing lots of goods and services then that person is making everyone's life better because we now have more goods and services to consume.

It's not the quantity of goods alone that improves quality of life. How are the masses of discarded low-quality goods piled in landfills improving anyone's quality of life?

+1

Same thing happens when you say "This country is prosperous because it has a hight GBP index". And it is a total fallacy.
dannickherpderp
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July 05, 2011, 05:54:01 PM
 #49

Except for one minor problem.  Energy is not free and unlimited for us with our current technologies.  If we had limitless power, sure, absolutely.  Time of scarcity is over.

Until then, you are simply wrong.


*looks up at the sky, sees a huge quadrillion-quadrillion-ton fusion reaction overhead"

Well that ain't unlimited, but it would probably last us a while.  Maybe we make a little version of it around here sometime, you know, for convenience.

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July 05, 2011, 06:34:59 PM
 #50

Unlimited wealth shot down in one link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_mass

But here's another for good measure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

IMO, these are the rules that define everything.....EVER!

Akin to the kernel of our existence.
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July 05, 2011, 07:24:33 PM
 #51

I will repeat:

Resources are limited. What we can do with them is not.
Aristotle
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July 05, 2011, 07:37:07 PM
 #52

Huh

But you need resources to do things with resources.

And what we can do with resources is limited by the laws of nature/physics, or whatever you want to call it.

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Anonymous
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July 05, 2011, 08:39:41 PM
 #53

laws of nature/physics

We know hardly anything about such things. We may think we do but we prove our knowledge is more shallow everyday.

But you need resources to do things with resources.

It's called Capital, haha.
david4dev
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July 05, 2011, 08:49:37 PM
 #54

But you need resources to do things with resources.

It's called Capital, haha.

but capital requires finite natural resources to create and is therefore finite itself   Roll Eyes

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Anonymous
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July 05, 2011, 08:56:26 PM
 #55

But you need resources to do things with resources.

It's called Capital, haha.

but capital requires finite natural resources to create and is therefore finite itself   Roll Eyes
No. Capital can be taken from created wealth derived from innovation.
david4dev
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July 05, 2011, 09:07:36 PM
 #56

As I understand, capital is a physical good used to produce goods and services that doesn't get consumed in the process. An example would be a catalyst in a chemical reaction or a tool used in production. The capital itself has to eventually be produced from the finite resources we have so is finite itself.

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Anonymous
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July 05, 2011, 09:15:50 PM
 #57

As I understand, capital is a physical good used to produce goods and services that doesn't get consumed in the process. An example would be a catalyst in a chemical reaction or a tool used in production. The capital itself has to eventually be produced from the finite resources we have so is finite itself.
John has a factory that can produce 5 cars with 1 unit of energy. He invents a process that uses less matter and only .25 units of energy. Revenue increases, not from harvesting more finite resources but by using less and meeting more desire.

Do you understand my premise now?
david4dev
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July 05, 2011, 09:20:52 PM
 #58

As I understand, capital is a physical good used to produce goods and services that doesn't get consumed in the process. An example would be a catalyst in a chemical reaction or a tool used in production. The capital itself has to eventually be produced from the finite resources we have so is finite itself.
John has a factory that can produce 5 cars with 1 unit of energy. He invents a process that uses less matter and only .25 units of energy. Revenue increases, not from harvesting more finite resources but by using less and meeting more desire.

Do you understand my premise now?

That is a description of increased efficiency. I don't see how that leads to unlimited wealth.

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Anonymous
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July 05, 2011, 09:24:57 PM
 #59

As I understand, capital is a physical good used to produce goods and services that doesn't get consumed in the process. An example would be a catalyst in a chemical reaction or a tool used in production. The capital itself has to eventually be produced from the finite resources we have so is finite itself.
John has a factory that can produce 5 cars with 1 unit of energy. He invents a process that uses less matter and only .25 units of energy. Revenue increases, not from harvesting more finite resources but by using less and meeting more desire.

Do you understand my premise now?

That is a description of increased efficiency. I don't see how that leads to unlimited wealth.
Because there is always room for more efficiency until we reach no scarcity at all.
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July 05, 2011, 09:25:53 PM
 #60

I will repeat:

Resources are limited. What we can do with them is not.

Really, resources can be stretched indefinitely without limit ? And the technology to do it will spontaneously emerge when conjured by the high prices in the market ? Let me tell you a little story.

Atlas lives on an libertarian island in the middle of the ocean and he's very good at agriculture. So good that he eventually bankrupts every other grower with his superior productions to the point that he comes to own 80% of the arable land. Enabled by the low food price, the population of the island increases to highest historical values. Atlas lives a long and successful life and is well respected by his fellow islander, but one day he passes away.

Atlas` son, who is a sociopath, is now in charge. He decides to stop production, and deprive the market of 80% of the food production. All within his rights as the owner of the private land.

How can the islanders avoid a Malthusian catastrophe and the death of a large number of people ? They are a primitive society without intercontinental navigation, hydroponics, chemistry, genetics. Sure, those things would enable superior production if available, but how can the primitive society solve these problems while threatened with imminent starvation ?

In a normal society the people will resort to physical violence and regain the natural ownership over scarce land. To deny that natural right is to sentence the people to starvation. Tha fact that Malthusian catastrophes do take place both in the animal and in the human world proves that resources don't actually stretch indefinitely.

A fast enough technical evolution might enable that (it did up to now for humanity as a whole), but there's no guarantee it will happen. It's just wishful thinking to believe eliminating patents will enable arbitrary scientifically progress. In fact humanity it's accelerating towards an ecological catastrophe.
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