France's position on Bitcoin (massive taxing on profits)

[junoreactor]

Hi folks.

Lately read this article > https://www.lesechos.fr/finance-marches/marches-financiers/0301023356585-impots-les-5-questions-a-se-poser-avant-dacheter-des-bitcoins-2138454.php this is about France's position (for now) on Bitcoin and cryptos in general.
I won't translate all of it, but basically main information is about implementing taxes on profits related to Bitcoin. So it seems this is the official position of France on this.
This is of course better than banning Bitcoin, but right now tax administration is watching closely and is "worried" about the use of cryptos in money laundering, or when it leads to all kinds of scams.

French residents are allowed to buy Bitcoin but must declare their profits, the same way they declare their taxes every year.
For instance, you bought 1000 EUR and sell for 14,000 EUR, you will pay taxes on the 13,000 profit made.

One thing new (for me) is that theoretically, if you buy items or services with Bitcoin, the seller should provide you a bill showing the equivalent amount in Euros (is it something done in any other country?)

However, there is still nothing officially decided about the exchange operations between different cryptos and the profits coming from it. As we all know, prices can move very quickly, it is (I think) impossible to know precisely at which price Mister Smith bought Coin X and traded it for Coin Y.

Taxes?
There are two different situations: the "average Joe" making one or two transactions here and there, and the "professional" doing this on a weekly basis (as "his job"). The amount of taxes paid is not very precise yet but could reach up tp a maximum of 60% for the highest (very significant) profits (does not surprise me the least from France, as my home country this is both sad and predictable).

How taxes will be applied?
It is actually not too difficult to know when a profit is made, if the person used his bank country located in France to receive the funds.

As a French citizen, this would seriously make me consider moving to Malta one day and call it my official residence.

Would be nice to share on this topic your personal experience:
-if you are French living in France
-if you live in a country with a similar policy
-if you ever paid taxes in your home country: please share your experience

Any other comment welcome.

[mk4]

60%!?!?!?!? What the actual f***??

 If that's the case, screw declaring taxes. If I was in your position I'd rather go with localbitcoins and do transaction meetups instead of buying off Coinbase or other similar services, so I could pay with paper money instead, which is quite untraceable. As if bitcoin's volatility isn't scary enough. Now french people have to pay up to 60% tax. Yikes.

Is that site:  https://www.lesechos.fr/ a valid or trustworthy source of information though? Not a French person, so I really don't know.

[junoreactor]

60%!?!?!?!? What the actual f***??

 If that's the case, screw declaring taxes. If I was in your position I'd rather go with localbitcoins and do transaction meetups instead of buying off Coinbase or other similar services, so I could pay with paper money instead, which is quite untraceable. As if bitcoin's volatility isn't scary enough. Now french people have to pay up to 60% tax. Yikes.

Is that site:  https://www.lesechos.fr/ a valid or trustworthy source of information though? Not a French person, so I really don't know.

Actually Up to 60% (will edit my post), but yeah when you get "kind of rich" in this country, you are screwed. Government still don't understand that citizens are as free as ever to leave the country when they feel they get stolen from tax administration.

Yeah this website is reliable I believe, but like said in my first post, I am not even surprised they intend to tax 60% on the biggest profits (my guess is that it should aim 6 figures profits, but yeah... shameful).

[dillpicklechips]

Actually Up to 60% (will edit my post), but yeah when you get "kind of rich" in this country, you are screwed.

60% is too much. Why don't they take Japan for example. We haven't heard any of its citizens complaining which is a good sign that the tax is nice and not that heavy and won't interefere making profits. I think your government should learn a thing or two. And like you said, French people (and any other people in the world) can leave their country amd search for a much fairer government as long as you have what it takes.

[mk4]

60%!?!?!?!? What the actual f***??

 If that's the case, screw declaring taxes. If I was in your position I'd rather go with localbitcoins and do transaction meetups instead of buying off Coinbase or other similar services, so I could pay with paper money instead, which is quite untraceable. As if bitcoin's volatility isn't scary enough. Now french people have to pay up to 60% tax. Yikes.

Is that site:  https://www.lesechos.fr/ a valid or trustworthy source of information though? Not a French person, so I really don't know.

Actually Up to 60% (will edit my post), but yeah when you get "kind of rich" in this country, you are screwed. Government still don't understand that citizens are as free as ever to leave the country when they feel they get stolen from tax administration.

Yeah this website is reliable I believe, but like said in my first post, I am not even surprised they intend to tax 60% on the biggest profits (my guess is that it should aim 6 figures profits, but yeah... shameful).

Still though, even if I'm a billionaire for example, 60% is like, what the f***? Calling 60% enormous would be an understatement.

As a french citizen, what's your move though? If you don't mind saying. Would you be willing to pay the taxes? I personally would definitely not be willing to pay 30-60% tax. Like I said, if I were you I would go with localbitcoins and do meetups instead. or probably look for a local person or friend that actively buys and sells bitcoin.

[Marileno]

We will start to see ALOT more of this. The IRS has already pressured coinbase into giving them info on accounts with a certain level of trading activity. It is this type of regulation that will ultimately cap the price on bitcoin

[olushakes]

The concerns surrounding this are every much simple because when it comes to knowing the time of buying the bitcoin and selling its just too simple. In blockchain.info account, you can export all your transaction even from the beginning of the account which will then state the amount bought, the price of bitcoin at the time and even the rate at the moment. With that being implemented, its just too easy to find out when and what the price was when it was purchased.

[aso118]

60% is outrageous. Most countries have favourable tax treatment for capital gains. They are taxed at a lower rate compared to normal income. This is basically done to encourage investment.
This kind of outrageous taxation rates is what prompts people to look at ways to minimize taxes, by perhaps even moving to other jursidictions.

[aplistir]

Wow. And I thought that my country is taxing bitcoin unfairly 

We have 30% tax on smaller than 30000€ bitcoin profits and for bigger sums it is 34%''
Which is actually almost reasonable except that they tax profits only.
 
If you make losses and profits in the same year, they tax the profits and ignore the losses.
In other similar incomes they add profits and losses together and tax after that IF the total is > 0

[jseverson]

Do they charge 60% taxes on normal income as well? If the 60% was already pre existing in your tax bracket, then it shouldn't be a surprise. You did earn an amount that reached the certain threshold, so you are expected to pay taxes normally. If it's exclusive to Bitcoin though, then that is all sorts of messed up, and is openly hostile to cryptocurrencies in general.

I imagine they can monitor how much taxes you should be paying through exchanges, a la USA. They'll certainly be able to tax your buys and sells. I honestly don't know, though, because there are ways to hide capital gains through crypto.

[LeGaulois]

This is not new, It's just that the govt. is making their position to be sure to be know from the bitcoiners. Because more people start to be interested in without thinking about taxes. But their position about this has been clear since a long time now.Actually, you paid taxes based on profits, you have to report as BNC or BIC. you can find it on taxes income sheet yearly.
But no way to be taxed up to 60%, it's not the ISF.

I know that they decided to use data mining and TRACFIN to watch out for people trying to cheat the taxes, which is a good thing to be honest

[patt0]

I'm not from France, and my french is terrible so I only your translation. I understand taxes should be paid, and I'm perfectly ok with that, as I think most of us are, but if the taxes go as high as 60% that is just an outrage and I doubt they will go forward with that. Unless that is the same amount they charge on the profits made on trading other assets. I think it's still to much, but if french citizens are already use to that, then they should be fine with it. If they don't charge 60% on gold profits and other commodities then what they are proposing is not reasonable.

[junoreactor]

60%!?!?!?!? What the actual f***??

 If that's the case, screw declaring taxes. If I was in your position I'd rather go with localbitcoins and do transaction meetups instead of buying off Coinbase or other similar services, so I could pay with paper money instead, which is quite untraceable. As if bitcoin's volatility isn't scary enough. Now french people have to pay up to 60% tax. Yikes.

Is that site:  https://www.lesechos.fr/ a valid or trustworthy source of information though? Not a French person, so I really don't know.

Actually Up to 60% (will edit my post), but yeah when you get "kind of rich" in this country, you are screwed. Government still don't understand that citizens are as free as ever to leave the country when they feel they get stolen from tax administration.

Yeah this website is reliable I believe, but like said in my first post, I am not even surprised they intend to tax 60% on the biggest profits (my guess is that it should aim 6 figures profits, but yeah... shameful).

Still though, even if I'm a billionaire for example, 60% is like, what the f***? Calling 60% enormous would be an understatement.

As a french citizen, what's your move though?

I don't mind saying. My profits are too small for now, but that being said, Bitcoin is so unpredictable that one day I could earn a lot of money, perhaps. In that case I would be happy to open a bank account in Malta, and move to there (I have a friend specialized in sports betting, he is from France but lives in Malta for this purpose).
I think I would just do that. Malta is close to France so this is a good solution for us. 

[junoreactor]

This is not new, It's just that the govt. is making their position to be sure to be know from the bitcoiners. Because more people start to be interested in without thinking about taxes. But their position about this has been clear since a long time now.Actually, you paid taxes based on profits, you have to report as BNC or BIC. you can find it on taxes income sheet yearly.
But no way to be taxed up to 60%, it's not the ISF.

I know that they decided to use data mining and TRACFIN to watch out for people trying to cheat the taxes, which is a good thing to be honest

I see we are from the same country. The article is indeed not very precise, they mention this 60% figure but this is still to discuss at this point.
I also heard somewhere (I can't recall which source) that Emmanuel Macron was not really supporting this plan to tax Bitcoin profits that much (now I am convinced he is a Bitcoin holder himself )

[Phoenixpple]

This message is understood in two ways. First of all, I think the good one is that the French government has begun to attach importance to the bitcoin transaction, indicating that the market is now becoming more mature. On the other hand, plus 60% tax will definitely suppress the bitcoin transaction in France, but soon the French will find a way to avoid tax, because bitcoin is global, not in a country in France.

[tomahawk9]

The excuse for taxes and regulations from all the goverments is that they're worried that cryptocurrencies (and especially Bitcoin) are being used for money laundering. Can they be honest and just say "we want to profit from whatever it is that you're doing with your money"? I'm not denying the fact that cryptocurrencies are being used by some people for "shady" reasons, but seriously, I'm getting tired of the same statements from different govt (it's actually fascinating, tbh)

and 60% in taxes is just plain stupid.  I think this is just to scare people off from Bitcoin so that this new 'trend' doesn't get out of control, this will also decrease buying power for btc in France. But I guess the french govt doesn't want its citizens making a fortune with btc if the system doesn't get a piece of the pie.

But I think rather than people moving out of France, many btc users will stop using exchanges, and the local btc market will evolve into some kind of 'underground market' or something, either way, i'm sure they'll figure something out, because up to 60% in taxes is absurd.

[Kotone]

Hi folks.

Lately read this article > https://www.lesechos.fr/finance-marches/marches-financiers/0301023356585-impots-les-5-questions-a-se-poser-avant-dacheter-des-bitcoins-2138454.php this is about France's position (for now) on Bitcoin and cryptos in general.
I won't translate all of it, but basically main information is about implementing taxes on profits related to Bitcoin. So it seems this is the official position of France on this.
This is of course better than banning Bitcoin, but right now tax administration is watching closely and is "worried" about the use of cryptos in money laundering, or when it leads to all kinds of scams.

French residents are allowed to buy Bitcoin but must declare their profits, the same way they declare their taxes every year.
For instance, you bought 1000 EUR and sell for 14,000 EUR, you will pay taxes on the 13,000 profit made.

One thing new (for me) is that theoretically, if you buy items or services with Bitcoin, the seller should provide you a bill showing the equivalent amount in Euros (is it something done in any other country?)

However, there is still nothing officially decided about the exchange operations between different cryptos and the profits coming from it. As we all know, prices can move very quickly, it is (I think) impossible to know precisely at which price Mister Smith bought Coin X and traded it for Coin Y.

Taxes?
There are two different situations: the "average Joe" making one or two transactions here and there, and the "professional" doing this on a weekly basis (as "his job"). The amount of taxes paid is not very precise yet but could reach up tp a maximum of 60% for the highest (very significant) profits (does not surprise me the least from France, as my home country this is both sad and predictable).

How taxes will be applied?
It is actually not too difficult to know when a profit is made, if the person used his bank country located in France to receive the funds.

As a French citizen, this would seriously make me consider moving to Malta one day and call it my official residence.

Would be nice to share on this topic your personal experience:
-if you are French living in France
-if you live in a country with a similar policy
-if you ever paid taxes in your home country: please share your experience

Any other comment welcome.

Well I think that this one way to go for a cou try to legalize cryptocurrency and ginally recognize it as a whole but I still imagine that this taxing might still chane especially if it encounters hirdlesfrom the people who are affected by it the french people

[Samarkand]

...
However, there is still nothing officially decided about the exchange operations between different cryptos and the profits coming from it. As we all know, prices can move very quickly, it is (I think) impossible to know precisely at which price Mister Smith bought Coin X and traded it for Coin Y.

...

I don´t understand why this seems to be a problem according to you.
The french tax offices will simply require you to attach your trading histories
from the exchanges that you use alongside your tax return, which obviously
includes the exact prices at the time of the individual trades.

If you are lucky and have no history of fraudulent behavior in your tax return
they might also accept an Excel sheet that includes your exchange transactions.

[jcarl987]

You only have to pay tax when you sell back into fiat right? If more and more places start accepting crypto directly this won't happen. Also coins like Monero stand to gain a lot from this sort of legislation.

[Lucius]

Personally I have nothing against the payment of taxes,but I think that all over 20% is pure robbery.Such a tax law just wants to discourage people to use cryprocurrency and to leave them at the mercy of banks.

I am also in EU and there is no low about BTC in my country,the one who convert BTC in fiat should also pay huge tax because authorities see it as an internet earnings.Dependenig on person status employed / unemployed tax can also go up to 60%.

So if one day I decide to convert my BTC to fiat(I hope I will not have to),I will go to some nice tropical destination with 0% tax and maybe buy citizenship,but I hope something will change on better in next 5-10 years regarding tax.

[alisa20172020]

Such a practice will further reduce the liquidity of bitcoin, because if France levy a high tax rate of 60%, most people will not often trade bitcoins, which will also lead to more scarce bitcoins, and the price will continue to increase.

[Samarkand]

Such a practice will further reduce the liquidity of bitcoin, because if France levy a high tax rate of 60%, most people will not often trade bitcoins, which will also lead to more scarce bitcoins, and the price will continue to increase.

France won´t levy a high tax rate of 60 %. Bitcoin profits will be taxed at your personal income tax rate.
Therefore you will only have to pay really high rates if you fall into one of the high personal income tax
brackets.

Most people will not make enough money to be in one of the top tax brackets.

[Taki]

If taxation system would be so easy in that country why such mass media faces as Depardieu would take Russian citizenship?! It is obviously not so easy and I suppose all people who get profit from crypto will cry soon from all those taxes. But yes, it is definitely better than banning, just like you say.

[eaLiTy]

If this news is true and the government planning to impose such a big tax is just ridiculous ,people will find a way to over come those kind of taxes,if they really wanted to play fair,they have to come up with fair taxes and not the skim off such a huge profit in the name of tax,but i am still not sure how authentic this news is as i have read yesterday that they are allowing trading of unlisted securities with the help of blockchain and i have not heard about this taxation news .

[HasHe]

60%!?!?!?!? What the actual f***??

 If that's the case, screw declaring taxes. If I was in your position I'd rather go with localbitcoins and do transaction meetups instead of buying off Coinbase or other similar services, so I could pay with paper money instead, which is quite untraceable. As if bitcoin's volatility isn't scary enough. Now french people have to pay up to 60% tax. Yikes.

Is that site:  https://www.lesechos.fr/ a valid or trustworthy source of information though? Not a French person, so I really don't know.

Bitcoin has not been yet taxed in my country.So,now i am enjoying a tax free earning from bitcoins.But if our government decides to tax bitcoin,then i too would use localbitcoins and buy bitcoins directly from the seller instead of paying by bank transfer.That would be safe for me.

[Cammo01]

 ???Yet how would they know what you bought and sold for?! And how much?!

[junoreactor]

???Yet how would they know what you bought and sold for?! And how much?!

When you transfered the money to your bank account, especially if it is a big amount, they will put their nose on it and you will need to provide evidence of your different transactions.
That is how I see it. But this is just talk for now, and I am waiting to see how exactly they will implement it.
In my case for instance, I used a bank card registered overseas, so it is not easy for them to find what amount I spent to buy (not to mention Bitcoin earned in signature campaigns or affiliate programs).

[JohnBitCo]

Actually Up to 60% (will edit my post), but yeah when you get "kind of rich" in this country, you are screwed.

60% is too much. Why don't they take Japan for example. We haven't heard any of its citizens complaining which is a good sign that the tax is nice and not that heavy and won't interefere making profits. I think your government should learn a thing or two. And like you said, French people (and any other people in the world) can leave their country amd search for a much fairer government as long as you have what it takes.

That's a way lot of tax amount. 60% on profits. The government think that people will give that much taxes  ? No, they wont. With bitcoins they will hide their profits and earnings and will find ways of deceiving the government. Would not it be better if government would have announce 10 percent taxes and everyone would have paid their taxes happily and there would have been no black money etc.

[gentlemand]

You only have to pay tax when you sell back into fiat right? If more and more places start accepting crypto directly this won't happen. Also coins like Monero stand to gain a lot from this sort of legislation.

Totally depends on your jurisdiction. Many places would regard crypto to crypto as a taxable disposal.

In the UK it's capital gains at 20% which seems bearable enough to me. I'm unsurprised France would do this. I have relatives in France and it's pretty darned communist when you scratch the surface. I'm amazed it functions as an economy considering how overbearing the state is there.

[mrcash02]

I thought France were more liberal than this. No one will follow this rule, people will use banks of another countries to convert their profits from BTC to fiat. 60% taxes are unproportional and inadequate. I think they should apply another kind of rule, instead of paying 60% to the government, people should use 60% of their profit to buy things on the country, to help local economy. This way all the parts gain.

[gentlemand]

I thought France were more liberal than this. No one will follow this rule, people will use banks of another countries to convert their profits from BTC to fiat. 60% taxes are unproportional and inadequate. I think they should apply another kind of rule, instead of paying 60% to the government, people should use 60% of their profit to buy things on the country, to help local economy. This way all the parts gain.

Hey, it's a socialist country but it's not THAT socialist.

It would be fascinating to see what effect punitive taxes like this would have on a young EU population if crypto was widespread. It's an extra incentive to give another country a try.

They do not deserve so much of our money.

[tech72]

How much is the tax? Also, it is good thing that they are introducing taxes instead of banning the bitcoin trades. This is definitely a positive step for bitcoins. All countries don't have clear guidelines for Bitcoins. Some steps or initiative like this will definitely boost Bitcoin as it will become legal to hold or trade bitcoins.

[eternalgloom]

You only have to pay tax when you sell back into fiat right? If more and more places start accepting crypto directly this won't happen. Also coins like Monero stand to gain a lot from this sort of legislation.

Totally depends on your jurisdiction. Many places would regard crypto to crypto as a taxable disposal.

In the UK it's capital gains at 20% which seems bearable enough to me. I'm unsurprised France would do this. I have relatives in France and it's pretty darned communist when you scratch the surface. I'm amazed it functions as an economy considering how overbearing the state is there.

Luckily my country doesn't tax crypto to crypto as a taxable disposal, but they do tax you when you convert it to fiat.

And yeah, France isn't a great country to be rich in, they've had so many socialist governments in the past.
Remember when they implemented a 75% super tax back when Hollande was president?

[junoreactor]

You only have to pay tax when you sell back into fiat right? If more and more places start accepting crypto directly this won't happen. Also coins like Monero stand to gain a lot from this sort of legislation.

Totally depends on your jurisdiction. Many places would regard crypto to crypto as a taxable disposal.

In the UK it's capital gains at 20% which seems bearable enough to me. I'm unsurprised France would do this. I have relatives in France and it's pretty darned communist when you scratch the surface. I'm amazed it functions as an economy considering how overbearing the state is there.

Luckily my country doesn't tax crypto to crypto as a taxable disposal, but they do tax you when you convert it to fiat.

And yeah, France isn't a great country to be rich in, they've had so many socialist governments in the past.
Remember when they implemented a 75% super tax back when Hollande was president?

Actually Hollande was seriously considering to implement this 75% tax but he did not. He realized it would be a disaster if he did. That was planned to aim yearly incomes overtaking 1 million EUROS, but then even politicians from his party agreed to say it was a bad idea. Socialism is just not good anyway when you live in a liberal economic system, but that's my personal opinion.

[Pan Troglodytes]

60%!?!?!?!? What the actual f***??

 If that's the case, screw declaring taxes. If I was in your position I'd rather go with localbitcoins and do transaction meetups instead of buying off Coinbase or other similar services, so I could pay with paper money instead, which is quite untraceable. As if bitcoin's volatility isn't scary enough. Now french people have to pay up to 60% tax. Yikes.

Is that site:  https://www.lesechos.fr/ a valid or trustworthy source of information though? Not a French person, so I really don't know.

Actually Up to 60% (will edit my post), but yeah when you get "kind of rich" in this country, you are screwed. Government still don't understand that citizens are as free as ever to leave the country when they feel they get stolen from tax administration.

Yeah this website is reliable I believe, but like said in my first post, I am not even surprised they intend to tax 60% on the biggest profits (my guess is that it should aim 6 figures profits, but yeah... shameful).

this is not a surprise that the governments will try to get as much profit as possible. The moment they noticed that bitcoin is not only the hype for geeks, but it is a real thing for the average Joe, the average Joe gets screwd. So nihil novi sub sole.

[Samarkand]

...Actually Hollande was seriously considering to implement this 75% tax but he did not. He realized it would be a disaster if he did. ...

Actually Hollande did implement the wealth tax. However, he had to drop it after huge public
criticism and missing success of the wealth tax.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/31/france-drops-75percent-supertax

François Hollande’s unpopular tax changes that imposed a 75% rate
on earnings above €1m (£780,000) will quietly disappear into the history books from Thursday.

Finance ministry studies showed that despite all the publicity, the sums obtained
from the supertax were meagre, standing at €260m in 2013 and €160m
in 2014, and affecting 1,000 staff in 470 companies. Over the same period, the budget deficit soared to €84.7bn.

[junoreactor]

...Actually Hollande was seriously considering to implement this 75% tax but he did not. He realized it would be a disaster if he did. ...

Actually Hollande did implement the wealth tax. However, he had to drop it after huge public
criticism and missing success of the wealth tax.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/31/france-drops-75percent-supertax

François Hollande’s unpopular tax changes that imposed a 75% rate
on earnings above €1m (£780,000) will quietly disappear into the history books from Thursday.

Finance ministry studies showed that despite all the publicity, the sums obtained
from the supertax were meagre, standing at €260m in 2013 and €160m
in 2014, and affecting 1,000 staff in 470 companies. Over the same period, the budget deficit soared to €84.7bn.

Ok I stand corrected then, it is strange because I was living in France back then and cannot remember he did implement it (I do remember all the discussions and criticizes around it though)  

[babar123]

60%!?!?!?!? What the actual f***??

 If that's the case, screw declaring taxes. If I was in your position I'd rather go with localbitcoins and do transaction meetups instead of buying off Coinbase or other similar services, so I could pay with paper money instead, which is quite untraceable. As if bitcoin's volatility isn't scary enough. Now french people have to pay up to 60% tax. Yikes.

Is that site:  https://www.lesechos.fr/ a valid or trustworthy source of information though? Not a French person, so I really don't know.

no, it can reach 80%, (they didnt count social tax of independant worker and missing of charterred acountant right in time (+25% of the cost basis))
so yes, 80% tax on profit for daytrader making more than a hundred k

[pooya87]

they are practically telling their people to either stop trading cryptocurrencies or start trading them off the market and away from government eyes! and this will only hurt the average Joes with small investments because they have to pay taxes and the big players will just move on to other methods of trading so that they don't have to pay the outrageous taxes.