France's position on Bitcoin (massive taxing on profits)

[junoreactor]

Hi folks.

Lately read this article > https://www.lesechos.fr/finance-marches/marches-financiers/0301023356585-impots-les-5-questions-a-se-poser-avant-dacheter-des-bitcoins-2138454.php this is about France's position (for now) on Bitcoin and cryptos in general.
I won't translate all of it, but basically main information is about implementing taxes on profits related to Bitcoin. So it seems this is the official position of France on this.
This is of course better than banning Bitcoin, but right now tax administration is watching closely and is "worried" about the use of cryptos in money laundering, or when it leads to all kinds of scams.

French residents are allowed to buy Bitcoin but must declare their profits, the same way they declare their taxes every year.
For instance, you bought 1000 EUR and sell for 14,000 EUR, you will pay taxes on the 13,000 profit made.

One thing new (for me) is that theoretically, if you buy items or services with Bitcoin, the seller should provide you a bill showing the equivalent amount in Euros (is it something done in any other country?)

However, there is still nothing officially decided about the exchange operations between different cryptos and the profits coming from it. As we all know, prices can move very quickly, it is (I think) impossible to know precisely at which price Mister Smith bought Coin X and traded it for Coin Y.

Taxes?
There are two different situations: the "average Joe" making one or two transactions here and there, and the "professional" doing this on a weekly basis (as "his job"). The amount of taxes paid is not very precise yet but could reach up tp a maximum of 60% for the highest (very significant) profits (does not surprise me the least from France, as my home country this is both sad and predictable).

How taxes will be applied?
It is actually not too difficult to know when a profit is made, if the person used his bank country located in France to receive the funds.

As a French citizen, this would seriously make me consider moving to Malta one day and call it my official residence.

Would be nice to share on this topic your personal experience:
-if you are French living in France
-if you live in a country with a similar policy
-if you ever paid taxes in your home country: please share your experience

Any other comment welcome.

[1714469996]

1714469996

[mk4]

60%!?!?!?!? What the actual f***??

 If that's the case, screw declaring taxes. If I was in your position I'd rather go with localbitcoins and do transaction meetups instead of buying off Coinbase or other similar services, so I could pay with paper money instead, which is quite untraceable. As if bitcoin's volatility isn't scary enough. Now french people have to pay up to 60% tax. Yikes.

Is that site:  https://www.lesechos.fr/ a valid or trustworthy source of information though? Not a French person, so I really don't know.

[junoreactor]

60%!?!?!?!? What the actual f***??

 If that's the case, screw declaring taxes. If I was in your position I'd rather go with localbitcoins and do transaction meetups instead of buying off Coinbase or other similar services, so I could pay with paper money instead, which is quite untraceable. As if bitcoin's volatility isn't scary enough. Now french people have to pay up to 60% tax. Yikes.

Is that site:  https://www.lesechos.fr/ a valid or trustworthy source of information though? Not a French person, so I really don't know.

Actually Up to 60% (will edit my post), but yeah when you get "kind of rich" in this country, you are screwed. Government still don't understand that citizens are as free as ever to leave the country when they feel they get stolen from tax administration.

Yeah this website is reliable I believe, but like said in my first post, I am not even surprised they intend to tax 60% on the biggest profits (my guess is that it should aim 6 figures profits, but yeah... shameful).

[dillpicklechips]

Actually Up to 60% (will edit my post), but yeah when you get "kind of rich" in this country, you are screwed.

60% is too much. Why don't they take Japan for example. We haven't heard any of its citizens complaining which is a good sign that the tax is nice and not that heavy and won't interefere making profits. I think your government should learn a thing or two. And like you said, French people (and any other people in the world) can leave their country amd search for a much fairer government as long as you have what it takes.

[mk4]

60%!?!?!?!? What the actual f***??

 If that's the case, screw declaring taxes. If I was in your position I'd rather go with localbitcoins and do transaction meetups instead of buying off Coinbase or other similar services, so I could pay with paper money instead, which is quite untraceable. As if bitcoin's volatility isn't scary enough. Now french people have to pay up to 60% tax. Yikes.

Is that site:  https://www.lesechos.fr/ a valid or trustworthy source of information though? Not a French person, so I really don't know.

Actually Up to 60% (will edit my post), but yeah when you get "kind of rich" in this country, you are screwed. Government still don't understand that citizens are as free as ever to leave the country when they feel they get stolen from tax administration.

Yeah this website is reliable I believe, but like said in my first post, I am not even surprised they intend to tax 60% on the biggest profits (my guess is that it should aim 6 figures profits, but yeah... shameful).

Still though, even if I'm a billionaire for example, 60% is like, what the f***? Calling 60% enormous would be an understatement.

As a french citizen, what's your move though? If you don't mind saying. Would you be willing to pay the taxes? I personally would definitely not be willing to pay 30-60% tax. Like I said, if I were you I would go with localbitcoins and do meetups instead. or probably look for a local person or friend that actively buys and sells bitcoin.

[Marileno]

We will start to see ALOT more of this. The IRS has already pressured coinbase into giving them info on accounts with a certain level of trading activity. It is this type of regulation that will ultimately cap the price on bitcoin

[olushakes]

The concerns surrounding this are every much simple because when it comes to knowing the time of buying the bitcoin and selling its just too simple. In blockchain.info account, you can export all your transaction even from the beginning of the account which will then state the amount bought, the price of bitcoin at the time and even the rate at the moment. With that being implemented, its just too easy to find out when and what the price was when it was purchased.

[aso118]

60% is outrageous. Most countries have favourable tax treatment for capital gains. They are taxed at a lower rate compared to normal income. This is basically done to encourage investment.
This kind of outrageous taxation rates is what prompts people to look at ways to minimize taxes, by perhaps even moving to other jursidictions.

[aplistir]

Wow. And I thought that my country is taxing bitcoin unfairly 

We have 30% tax on smaller than 30000€ bitcoin profits and for bigger sums it is 34%''
Which is actually almost reasonable except that they tax profits only.
 
If you make losses and profits in the same year, they tax the profits and ignore the losses.
In other similar incomes they add profits and losses together and tax after that IF the total is > 0

[jseverson]

Do they charge 60% taxes on normal income as well? If the 60% was already pre existing in your tax bracket, then it shouldn't be a surprise. You did earn an amount that reached the certain threshold, so you are expected to pay taxes normally. If it's exclusive to Bitcoin though, then that is all sorts of messed up, and is openly hostile to cryptocurrencies in general.

I imagine they can monitor how much taxes you should be paying through exchanges, a la USA. They'll certainly be able to tax your buys and sells. I honestly don't know, though, because there are ways to hide capital gains through crypto.

[LeGaulois]

This is not new, It's just that the govt. is making their position to be sure to be know from the bitcoiners. Because more people start to be interested in without thinking about taxes. But their position about this has been clear since a long time now.Actually, you paid taxes based on profits, you have to report as BNC or BIC. you can find it on taxes income sheet yearly.
But no way to be taxed up to 60%, it's not the ISF.

I know that they decided to use data mining and TRACFIN to watch out for people trying to cheat the taxes, which is a good thing to be honest

[patt0]

I'm not from France, and my french is terrible so I only your translation. I understand taxes should be paid, and I'm perfectly ok with that, as I think most of us are, but if the taxes go as high as 60% that is just an outrage and I doubt they will go forward with that. Unless that is the same amount they charge on the profits made on trading other assets. I think it's still to much, but if french citizens are already use to that, then they should be fine with it. If they don't charge 60% on gold profits and other commodities then what they are proposing is not reasonable.

[junoreactor]

60%!?!?!?!? What the actual f***??

 If that's the case, screw declaring taxes. If I was in your position I'd rather go with localbitcoins and do transaction meetups instead of buying off Coinbase or other similar services, so I could pay with paper money instead, which is quite untraceable. As if bitcoin's volatility isn't scary enough. Now french people have to pay up to 60% tax. Yikes.

Is that site:  https://www.lesechos.fr/ a valid or trustworthy source of information though? Not a French person, so I really don't know.

Actually Up to 60% (will edit my post), but yeah when you get "kind of rich" in this country, you are screwed. Government still don't understand that citizens are as free as ever to leave the country when they feel they get stolen from tax administration.

Yeah this website is reliable I believe, but like said in my first post, I am not even surprised they intend to tax 60% on the biggest profits (my guess is that it should aim 6 figures profits, but yeah... shameful).

Still though, even if I'm a billionaire for example, 60% is like, what the f***? Calling 60% enormous would be an understatement.

As a french citizen, what's your move though?

I don't mind saying. My profits are too small for now, but that being said, Bitcoin is so unpredictable that one day I could earn a lot of money, perhaps. In that case I would be happy to open a bank account in Malta, and move to there (I have a friend specialized in sports betting, he is from France but lives in Malta for this purpose).
I think I would just do that. Malta is close to France so this is a good solution for us. 

[junoreactor]

This is not new, It's just that the govt. is making their position to be sure to be know from the bitcoiners. Because more people start to be interested in without thinking about taxes. But their position about this has been clear since a long time now.Actually, you paid taxes based on profits, you have to report as BNC or BIC. you can find it on taxes income sheet yearly.
But no way to be taxed up to 60%, it's not the ISF.

I know that they decided to use data mining and TRACFIN to watch out for people trying to cheat the taxes, which is a good thing to be honest

I see we are from the same country. The article is indeed not very precise, they mention this 60% figure but this is still to discuss at this point.
I also heard somewhere (I can't recall which source) that Emmanuel Macron was not really supporting this plan to tax Bitcoin profits that much (now I am convinced he is a Bitcoin holder himself )

[Phoenixpple]

This message is understood in two ways. First of all, I think the good one is that the French government has begun to attach importance to the bitcoin transaction, indicating that the market is now becoming more mature. On the other hand, plus 60% tax will definitely suppress the bitcoin transaction in France, but soon the French will find a way to avoid tax, because bitcoin is global, not in a country in France.

[tomahawk9]

The excuse for taxes and regulations from all the goverments is that they're worried that cryptocurrencies (and especially Bitcoin) are being used for money laundering. Can they be honest and just say "we want to profit from whatever it is that you're doing with your money"? I'm not denying the fact that cryptocurrencies are being used by some people for "shady" reasons, but seriously, I'm getting tired of the same statements from different govt (it's actually fascinating, tbh)

and 60% in taxes is just plain stupid.  I think this is just to scare people off from Bitcoin so that this new 'trend' doesn't get out of control, this will also decrease buying power for btc in France. But I guess the french govt doesn't want its citizens making a fortune with btc if the system doesn't get a piece of the pie.

But I think rather than people moving out of France, many btc users will stop using exchanges, and the local btc market will evolve into some kind of 'underground market' or something, either way, i'm sure they'll figure something out, because up to 60% in taxes is absurd.

[Kotone]

Hi folks.

Lately read this article > https://www.lesechos.fr/finance-marches/marches-financiers/0301023356585-impots-les-5-questions-a-se-poser-avant-dacheter-des-bitcoins-2138454.php this is about France's position (for now) on Bitcoin and cryptos in general.
I won't translate all of it, but basically main information is about implementing taxes on profits related to Bitcoin. So it seems this is the official position of France on this.
This is of course better than banning Bitcoin, but right now tax administration is watching closely and is "worried" about the use of cryptos in money laundering, or when it leads to all kinds of scams.

French residents are allowed to buy Bitcoin but must declare their profits, the same way they declare their taxes every year.
For instance, you bought 1000 EUR and sell for 14,000 EUR, you will pay taxes on the 13,000 profit made.

One thing new (for me) is that theoretically, if you buy items or services with Bitcoin, the seller should provide you a bill showing the equivalent amount in Euros (is it something done in any other country?)

However, there is still nothing officially decided about the exchange operations between different cryptos and the profits coming from it. As we all know, prices can move very quickly, it is (I think) impossible to know precisely at which price Mister Smith bought Coin X and traded it for Coin Y.

Taxes?
There are two different situations: the "average Joe" making one or two transactions here and there, and the "professional" doing this on a weekly basis (as "his job"). The amount of taxes paid is not very precise yet but could reach up tp a maximum of 60% for the highest (very significant) profits (does not surprise me the least from France, as my home country this is both sad and predictable).

How taxes will be applied?
It is actually not too difficult to know when a profit is made, if the person used his bank country located in France to receive the funds.

As a French citizen, this would seriously make me consider moving to Malta one day and call it my official residence.

Would be nice to share on this topic your personal experience:
-if you are French living in France
-if you live in a country with a similar policy
-if you ever paid taxes in your home country: please share your experience

Any other comment welcome.

Well I think that this one way to go for a cou try to legalize cryptocurrency and ginally recognize it as a whole but I still imagine that this taxing might still chane especially if it encounters hirdlesfrom the people who are affected by it the french people

[Samarkand]

...
However, there is still nothing officially decided about the exchange operations between different cryptos and the profits coming from it. As we all know, prices can move very quickly, it is (I think) impossible to know precisely at which price Mister Smith bought Coin X and traded it for Coin Y.

...

I don´t understand why this seems to be a problem according to you.
The french tax offices will simply require you to attach your trading histories
from the exchanges that you use alongside your tax return, which obviously
includes the exact prices at the time of the individual trades.

If you are lucky and have no history of fraudulent behavior in your tax return
they might also accept an Excel sheet that includes your exchange transactions.

[jcarl987]

You only have to pay tax when you sell back into fiat right? If more and more places start accepting crypto directly this won't happen. Also coins like Monero stand to gain a lot from this sort of legislation.

[Lucius]

Personally I have nothing against the payment of taxes,but I think that all over 20% is pure robbery.Such a tax law just wants to discourage people to use cryprocurrency and to leave them at the mercy of banks.

I am also in EU and there is no low about BTC in my country,the one who convert BTC in fiat should also pay huge tax because authorities see it as an internet earnings.Dependenig on person status employed / unemployed tax can also go up to 60%.

So if one day I decide to convert my BTC to fiat(I hope I will not have to),I will go to some nice tropical destination with 0% tax and maybe buy citizenship,but I hope something will change on better in next 5-10 years regarding tax.