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Jet Cash
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December 18, 2017, 07:53:43 AM
 #1

I want to send some coins from my Windows wallet to my Ubuntu wallet. Both are based on nodes using the latest version of core. I'm not bothered about confirmation times, even if it takes a week to get a confirmation. It seems that no-fee transactions may be possible under certain circumstances.
Quote
Historic rules for free transactions

A transaction was safe to send without fees if these conditions were met:

    It is smaller than 1,000 bytes.
    All outputs are 0.01 BTC or larger.
    Its priority is large enough (see above)
The above quote is from the Bitcoin Wiki.

Another quote is
Quote
The reference client currently refuses to relay transactions it considers unacceptable, such as those with zero or no fees. However, there may be miners who are willing to put these in a block. This group is for people who want to send such transactions, and those who want to put them in blocks.

To participate, have your node maintain a connection to Lightfoot Hosting's node, which relays indiscriminately. This means that you can broadcast your transaction to it, and it will relay it to any miner who also has a connection to it. If your transaction meets the policies of at least one miner connected, it should eventually be mined into a block.

Are these two quotes still true. or are no-fee transactions dead in the current market?

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December 18, 2017, 08:10:10 AM
 #2

My last no-fee transaction confirmed January 15. It was unconfirmed for about 3 months, and I haven't tried to make one since. I don't know if no-fee transactions will work in this fee economy, but the mempool does get cleared every few months, so I assume that if you are patient a no-fee transaction will go through... eventually.

I might try no-fee for deposits to "savings" wallets, where it's not important that the transaction is confirmed quickly.
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December 18, 2017, 08:15:08 AM
 #3

I want to send some coins from my Windows wallet to my Ubuntu wallet. Both are based on nodes using the latest version of core. I'm not bothered about confirmation times, even if it takes a week to get a confirmation. It seems that no-fee transactions may be possible under certain circumstances.
Quote
Historic rules for free transactions

A transaction was safe to send without fees if these conditions were met:

    It is smaller than 1,000 bytes.
    All outputs are 0.01 BTC or larger.
    Its priority is large enough (see above)
The above quote is from the Bitcoin Wiki.

Another quote is
Quote
The reference client currently refuses to relay transactions it considers unacceptable, such as those with zero or no fees. However, there may be miners who are willing to put these in a block. This group is for people who want to send such transactions, and those who want to put them in blocks.

To participate, have your node maintain a connection to Lightfoot Hosting's node, which relays indiscriminately. This means that you can broadcast your transaction to it, and it will relay it to any miner who also has a connection to it. If your transaction meets the policies of at least one miner connected, it should eventually be mined into a block.

Are these two quotes still true. or are no-fee transactions dead in the current market?

Transaction priority was always just node policy (i.e. not a consensus rule). As fees become more relevant, rational miners care only about confirming transactions that pay the highest possible fees. So most (if not all) miners have removed the policy (which reserved space for priority transactions). Since apparently no one was using the policy anymore, Core removed priority from its fee estimation.

So, the answer is right on the wiki page you quoted:
Quote
almost all miners expect every transaction to include a fee.

Technically, miners can include whatever transactions they want in the blocks they mine. That's basically their only power. Rationally, it doesn't make sense to publish no-fee transactions. But I've seen zero-fee transactions confirmed in the past few months, so I know it happens. The circumstances of those transactions? I can't say. Maybe they used an accelerator service. Maybe there are still some altruistic miners or pool operators out there.

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December 18, 2017, 08:20:33 AM
 #4


I might try no-fee for deposits to "savings" wallets, where it's not important that the transaction is confirmed quickly.

That is why I want to transfer to a different wallet. I'm toying with the dumping of Windows 10 for security reasons, and I'm also thinking of maintaining a Bitcoin cash wallet with the few coins I've been given. I've also got some very small transactions, and I think it would be useful to consolidate those.

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December 18, 2017, 12:56:44 PM
 #5

I want to send some coins from my Windows wallet to my Ubuntu wallet. Both are based on nodes using the latest version of core. I'm not bothered about confirmation times, even if it takes a week to get a confirmation. It seems that no-fee transactions may be possible under certain circumstances.
Quote
Historic rules for free transactions

A transaction was safe to send without fees if these conditions were met:

    It is smaller than 1,000 bytes.
    All outputs are 0.01 BTC or larger.
    Its priority is large enough (see above)
The above quote is from the Bitcoin Wiki.

Another quote is
Quote
The reference client currently refuses to relay transactions it considers unacceptable, such as those with zero or no fees. However, there may be miners who are willing to put these in a block. This group is for people who want to send such transactions, and those who want to put them in blocks.

To participate, have your node maintain a connection to Lightfoot Hosting's node, which relays indiscriminately. This means that you can broadcast your transaction to it, and it will relay it to any miner who also has a connection to it. If your transaction meets the policies of at least one miner connected, it should eventually be mined into a block.

Are these two quotes still true. or are no-fee transactions dead in the current market?

I sent a very low fee (<5 sat/byte)transaction right before the gran snag on the blockchain
it has been unconfirmed for 12 whole days now,I'm not too concerned about the speed,yes
but I would like to see it cleared in under 3 months time simply because if the price fluctuates
it would be wise to get hold of funds rather than have them stuck in limbo
for any transaction that is relatively important(and I feel extremely stingy) I'm trying to set a fee of at least 10 sat/byte,so it can be accelerated for free at leisure if I feel so

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December 18, 2017, 04:52:23 PM
 #6

Although zero transactions fee is possible but in current situation when network is over loaded with the transactions and we have seen hundred of thousands unconfirmed transactions in mempool(now 138164 unconfirmed), even fee payer have to wait too much for confirmation so may be it will take months to get confirm a transaction with no fee. However If you are not a trader and just holding you coins than there isn't any issue for you to use free path but to get your transaction confirm through fee is much efficient way.
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December 18, 2017, 07:50:06 PM
 #7

I think zero fee transactions are no good solution. Too much risk for not being confirmed at all, too unreliable.. Especialy with so fast and sudden rise of network, all this transactions are hard to take.
Bitcoin transactions fees got to a realy high level and that makes users sometimes very angry. But it was expected that with bitcoin price the fees will also rise. Besides, everything has the price, there is nothing for free, so the bitcoin transactions too. And somebody has to live out of that too.

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December 18, 2017, 08:00:09 PM
 #8

There is an advantage to the Bitcoin community if I move my coins into a different wallet. It means that multiple outputs will be consolidated into one tansaction, and this will reduce the size of the unspent coins pool.

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December 18, 2017, 10:40:31 PM
 #9

There is an advantage to the Bitcoin community if I move my coins into a different wallet. It means that multiple outputs will be consolidated into one tansaction, and this will reduce the size of the unspent coins pool.

reduction of the UTXO set is good for the network, but miners generally don't care about that. they are just rational actors. barring some fear of protocol failure or network split, they do what is best for their wallet. the design must work based purely on incentive/market mechanisms, so the block allocation for free transactions never made sense. there is too large of a disconnect between short term miner incentive and long term incentive to achieve "network good" for that to work.

this is why it made sense to incentivize UTXO reduction with segwit (using the witness discount). if the economy transitions to segwit, this should mitigate the incentive to bloat the UTXO set which is built into standard transactions.

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December 20, 2017, 09:18:49 AM
 #10

There is an advantage to the Bitcoin community if I move my coins into a different wallet. It means that multiple outputs will be consolidated into one tansaction, and this will reduce the size of the unspent coins pool.

If it's just one single (simple) transaction, why not just pay the minimal fee and get it confirmed earlier instead of waiting for months?
You may already see the mempool being hit hard by spam attacks as well as lower fee transactions are also not getting confirmed for days (some even weeks) for now, and by saying lower fee transactions - I mean transactions that are being sent with ~100 sats/byte. Miners are playing games by switching to most profitable coins and wait for the mempool to get stuck, then try to get their hands on some transactions that have gathered the highest fee. I don't know how can you be so sure about the "size" of your transaction because I personally don't know how to calculate it, but if yours is really lower than what's mentioned by you and if you are not concerned about the time it takes to confirm, I guess you may go ahead. Please refer that calculation to me that you do to know the possible transaction size of your transaction, it will prove to be a lot helpful to each one of us.

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December 20, 2017, 11:06:16 AM
 #11

I want to send some coins from my Windows wallet to my Ubuntu wallet. Both are based on nodes using the latest version of core. I'm not bothered about confirmation times, even if it takes a week to get a confirmation. It seems that no-fee transactions may be possible under certain circumstances.
Quote
Historic rules for free transactions

A transaction was safe to send without fees if these conditions were met:

    It is smaller than 1,000 bytes.
    All outputs are 0.01 BTC or larger.
    Its priority is large enough (see above)
The above quote is from the Bitcoin Wiki.

exstasie has already given you the full answer but the bit I bolded is the clue here. That was indeed the way things used to be when miners reserved space in every block for these priority transactions, but now it is just a memory of the good old times.

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December 20, 2017, 02:54:03 PM
 #12


exstasie has already given you the full answer but the bit I bolded is the clue here. That was indeed the way things used to be when miners reserved space in every block for these priority transactions, but now it is just a memory of the good old times.


Tis was really the reason I started this thread - I wondered if the rules still applied.

I plan to have a go at picking up the coins that I've got from the recent forks, and, as a safety measure, I was going to move the Bitcoin I've got in various addresses into a different wallet. I had a bit of a wobbly yesterday when I tried to buy an external Toshiba drive. It seems that Seagate and WD are paying a major UK retailer to stop stocking Toshiba drives. There is more to the story, but I ended up walking out of the store without a drive. I'll pick up a drive next week, and start a process to claim my "free" alt coins.

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