The fiat system is better in some aspects

[madmadmax]

I think what we have noticed is that the people who purchased ASICS from scams using fiat were relatively safe since as soon as they were not delivered they could reverse the payment yet people who paid in Bitcoin were basically screwed, so I think that raises the question of whether the fiat system is superior in some regards, at least currently while the system is failing so many people.

Theoretically speaking, if you were paid 13mil USD in BTC would YOU feel safe storing them on blockchain.info and securing it with your email/yubikey KNOWING that any stolen coins are unrecoverable yet if you stored the very same 13 million on either Paypal (or better yet, a Singaporean bank which has stats that are about 20 times better) and your account got compromised nothing would be lost essentially.

How do you make sure that one of Edward Snowdens bosses doesn't decide to buy his wife a new car and rob you of all your BTC?

One thing that I have learned is that Bitcoin is certainly a promising technology reserved for the future but at the current stage of human development it only has use among the intellectuals capable of independent thought, which is tragically an ever decreasing minority.

Both the masses which are incapable of thinking "for themselves" and only posses the ability to adapt ideas and the masters of conveying ideas who cannot fully comprehend the very ideas that they convey will keep using the fiat system and punishing/robbing those who support the free market.

[MA5H3D]

I hear what you're saying, but ultimately the fiat system is unsustainable. Ask the people of Cyprus how safe money in a bank really is.

[jl2012]

I think what we have noticed is that the people who purchased ASICS from scams using fiat were relatively safe since as soon as they were not delivered they could reverse the payment yet people who paid in Bitcoin were basically screwed, so I think that raises the question of whether the fiat system is superior in some regards, at least currently while the system is failing so many people.

Theoretically speaking, if you were paid 13mil USD in BTC would YOU feel safe storing them on blockchain.info and securing it with your email/yubikey KNOWING that any stolen coins are unrecoverable yet if you stored the very same 13 million on either Paypal (or better yet, a Singaporean bank which has stats that are about 20 times better) and your account got compromised nothing would be lost essentially.

How do you make sure that one of Edward Snowdens bosses doesn't decide to buy his wife a new car and rob you of all your BTC?

One thing that I have learned is that Bitcoin is certainly a promising technology reserved for the future but at the current stage of human development it only has use among the intellectuals capable of independent thought, which is tragically an ever decreasing minority.

Both the masses which are incapable of thinking "for themselves" and only posses the ability to adapt ideas and the masters of conveying ideas who cannot fully comprehend the very ideas that they convey will keep using the fiat system and punishing/robbing those who support the free market.

Only a retard will put 13M USD in BTC on blockchain.info

[CIYAM]

IMO a likely and sensible option would be to have a BTC account held at your bank (so they would look after your BTC for you).

Such accounts could be insured (at least in terms of the "fiat" equivalent of BTC that the bank was holding assuming that a heist occurred).

[Come-from-Beyond]

I think what we have noticed is that the people who purchased ASICS from scams using fiat were relatively safe since as soon as they were not delivered they could reverse the payment yet people who paid in Bitcoin were basically screwed, so I think that raises the question of whether the fiat system is superior in some regards, at least currently while the system is failing so many people.

Theoretically speaking, if you were paid 13mil USD in BTC would YOU feel safe storing them on blockchain.info and securing it with your email/yubikey KNOWING that any stolen coins are unrecoverable yet if you stored the very same 13 million on either Paypal (or better yet, a Singaporean bank which has stats that are about 20 times better) and your account got compromised nothing would be lost essentially.

How do you make sure that one of Edward Snowdens bosses doesn't decide to buy his wife a new car and rob you of all your BTC?

One thing that I have learned is that Bitcoin is certainly a promising technology reserved for the future but at the current stage of human development it only has use among the intellectuals capable of independent thought, which is tragically an ever decreasing minority.

Both the masses which are incapable of thinking "for themselves" and only posses the ability to adapt ideas and the masters of conveying ideas who cannot fully comprehend the very ideas that they convey will keep using the fiat system and punishing/robbing those who support the free market.

Here is another solution - http://qubic.boards.net/thread/9/fighting-scam

[smscotten]

Well, for one thing, that doesn't have anything to do with it being fiat. If you paid by cash, check, wire transfer, or money order, you'd be in the same situation folks are if they paid with BTC. One of the services provided to customers by credit card companies (hey, just because they are required to provide the service doesn't mean it isn't a service) is to reverse fraudulent charges. If some bank issued a credit card in BTC, they would be required (in the US) to offer reversals as well.

Second, the company you're thinking of doesn't actually accept BTC. They have a third-party exchange which takes your payment in BTC and pays USD to the company. That almost certainly doesn't help anyone seeking a refund, but we're back to what you describe being a function of some business practices, not really related to fiat vs crypto.

This sounds like a great case for escrow. Which would also prevent that company from being able to use the pre-sales income to do their research and development. Which is something I wouldn't cry over.

Finally, as far as having BTC137K to keep safe, I hope I'm not being too naïve to think that that is a job for encrypted wallets. you're right; I wouldn't trust that kind of money to any of the online wallets out there. The only way someone is going to compromise my bitcoin account is with some drugs and a $5 wrench.

[madmadmax]

I hear what you're saying, but ultimately the fiat system is unsustainable. Ask the people of Cyprus how safe money in a bank really is.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge advocate of BTC and the free market in general, I can see a distant future where we have blockchains for property, signing up for public services and so on, the state would have about enough taxes to rent a small office somewhere in Detroit since you would be able to subscribe to different companies that offer services such as protection/police fire fighters, health care/ambulances and so on without the gov coercing and bullying you into paying up.

IMO a likely and sensible option would be to have a BTC account held at your bank (so they would look after your BTC for you).

Such accounts could be insured (at least in terms of the "fiat" equivalent of BTC that the bank was holding assuming that a heist occurred).

The real issue is that debt is always reversible in contrast to BTC, you can always go "Mhea" and wipe the debt clean.

Here is another solution - http://qubic.boards.net/thread/9/fighting-scam

Seems like a viable solution, the only issue is that it would let the big companies choke the small ones, big pharma would be able to purchase medicinal marijuana for example and pay twice the amount for every dollar the marijuana pharmacy loses.

Well, for one thing, that doesn't have anything to do with it being fiat. If you paid by cash, check, wire transfer, or money order, you'd be in the same situation folks are if they paid with BTC. One of the services provided to customers by credit card companies (hey, just because they are required to provide the service doesn't mean it isn't a service) is to reverse fraudulent charges. If some bank issued a credit card in BTC, they would be required (in the US) to offer reversals as well.

Second, the company you're thinking of doesn't actually accept BTC. They have a third-party exchange which takes your payment in BTC and pays USD to the company. That almost certainly doesn't help anyone seeking a refund, but we're back to what you describe being a function of some business practices, not really related to fiat vs crypto.

This sounds like a great case for escrow. Which would also prevent that company from being able to use the pre-sales income to do their research and development. Which is something I wouldn't cry over.

Finally, as far as having BTC137K to keep safe, I hope I'm not being too naïve to think that that is a job for encrypted wallets. you're right; I wouldn't trust that kind of money to any of the online wallets out there. The only way someone is going to compromise my bitcoin account is with some drugs and a $5 wrench.

LOL, can't tell if sarcastic or not.

I think what we have noticed is that the people who purchased ASICS from scams using fiat were relatively safe since as soon as they were not delivered they could reverse the payment yet people who paid in Bitcoin were basically screwed, so I think that raises the question of whether the fiat system is superior in some regards, at least currently while the system is failing so many people.

Theoretically speaking, if you were paid 13mil USD in BTC would YOU feel safe storing them on blockchain.info and securing it with your email/yubikey KNOWING that any stolen coins are unrecoverable yet if you stored the very same 13 million on either Paypal (or better yet, a Singaporean bank which has stats that are about 20 times better) and your account got compromised nothing would be lost essentially.

How do you make sure that one of Edward Snowdens bosses doesn't decide to buy his wife a new car and rob you of all your BTC?

One thing that I have learned is that Bitcoin is certainly a promising technology reserved for the future but at the current stage of human development it only has use among the intellectuals capable of independent thought, which is tragically an ever decreasing minority.

Both the masses which are incapable of thinking "for themselves" and only posses the ability to adapt ideas and the masters of conveying ideas who cannot fully comprehend the very ideas that they convey will keep using the fiat system and punishing/robbing those who support the free market.

Only a retard will put 13M USD in BTC on blockchain.info

Would the same retard store those 13M in a US bank instead of a much safer foreign one or better yet invest it in real estate, high tech or any other "real" source of wealth?

[runam0k]

This really comes down to the ability to ID and pursue owners of BTC addresses.  Fiat transactions are only 'reversible' because (for the most part) the money can be recovered.

Only a month ago, I bought something from an online retailer who then emailed me back saying the item wasn't in stock. I asked for a refund and got nothing but only delays and excuses. One call to my CC company and boom, they refunded me the money and now they are chasing the retailer. Regulations require the CC company to act that way (they wouldn't otherwise).

Without bank control of BTC addresses - and everything that entails e.g. ability to freeze, etc - linked to specific individuals or companies in the same way bank accounts are, it's tough to see how any comparable level of bitcoin consumer protection could exist.

[franky1]

imagine bitcoin offering a escrow service that would release the funds to the merchant 28 days after the transaction. knowing that most deliveries are done before that time. allowing any discrepancies to be dealt with within that timescale. the escrow service would charge a couple percent for the privilege of managing the funds between the two parties.

now lets think of a name for this service.. hmmmmmmmmmm.. a credit card company......

and that's why you pay %fee's for credit cards.

if you want to risk not using a escrow service then just hand over bitcoins direct to retailers
if you want to risk not using a bankcard service then just hand over paper fiat direct to retailers

fiat(the victorian/wildwest days of just paper transactions) is no different then bitcoin. the only difference is that fiat banking system developed tooooooooo many rules which it calls security precautions, yet cause more problems then solutions.

[luv2drnkbr]

OP if you don't know the difference between what money actually is and what the payment systems built on top of it are, then you really aren't qualified to be posting.  Fiat doesn't magically equal fraud insurance.  Fraud insurance comes as a service of your bank or credit card.  And the police, since fraud is illegal.  None of that has to do with the type of money you're using though.  All of that could easily be built on top of bitcoin as well.  What your post is actually saying is "bitcoin is harder to use because fewer people use it and less services are built on it".  Well, no shit Sherlock.

[AliceWonder]

The fiat system is necessary and I do not think it should go away.

Especially for financing purchases, financed purchased should generally be done with fiat.

However things like the ASICs that were not delivered could have been done with an escrow and I expect to see escrow services grow as consumers will demand it just for cases like this where a vendor does not deliver.

What we need is client support for the kind of addresses that require 2 out of 3 private keys so that escrow is safer.
The escrow doesn't ever have to have the bitcoins. They just send a private key to vendor once product delivered or to customer if vendor never delivers and order cancelled.

[jdbtracker]

  We are the designers of the future; I believe you are making the mistake of thinking that everyone should be like you and understand the things you already understand. No one has to understand how money works to use it, the design of the money will convey the ways that it should be used.

  The future needs new solutions that are not easy to come by or to choose even though they are the best choices. The regulatory hurdles, the legal ones are daunting but not as daunting as the preconceived notions of the masses who have not bothered to understand... we cannot all be creators some of us have to be followers, that do it out of our own volition.

  Scams, fraud they are a problem, Bitcoin has simply put the fraud problems back onto the users like it was hundreds of years ago, these are problems that institutions with real risks have to overcome and their solutions have stood the test of time for hundreds of years; The capable survive where the incapable cannot through innovation and escalation of known patterns. The pattern that will evolve from this reboot of money will be epic if taken to its logical conclusion... cryptography, insurmountable systems combined with free market choice will decide the best solution that blends the demands of the people with the capability of our current technology.
   Our money may no longer be able to be stolen easily without our consent... so now we have a re-emergence of age old scams that attack around the idea of money... property, services, business accountability, etc.

When we have innovated and escalated our money/property/services systems to match the real world... no one will care how it works, all they will know is that it does, because who questions something that everyone uses? someone did the scholarly work to prove it works... didn't they; Well we are part of that team, the Cryptographers.

The solution is three pronged... make a system that can be charged back, use the current hidden features of Bitcoin that are currently being solved by the Bitcoinj people, or adapt the property, services, and the delivery systems with cryptography for proof of ownership, proof of delivery and proof service systems... think of the receipts you get as confirmations, now combine them into a blockchain, what would happen.

[Trongersoll]

But... but, but, Scammers hate charge backs!  they should be illegal! 

[madmadmax]

OP if you don't know the difference between what money actually is and what the payment systems built on top of it are, then you really aren't qualified to be posting.  Fiat doesn't magically equal fraud insurance.  Fraud insurance comes as a service of your bank or credit card.  And the police, since fraud is illegal.  None of that has to do with the type of money you're using though.  All of that could easily be built on top of bitcoin as well.  What your post is actually saying is "bitcoin is harder to use because fewer people use it and less services are built on it".  Well, no shit Sherlock.

Would police be just as willing to go against criminals who have stolen your "fancy virtual game coins"? History shows that no, they aren't, even if you know the identity of the thief the police will likely remain impotent simply because it benefits them in conveying the idea that bitcoin isn't safe.

[LTClover]

Not better at all!

[FiNaLize]

Not better at all!

I can't pay my groceries with BTC! that being said I can't store my fiat money on my computer.

[AliceWonder]

But... but, but, Scammers hate charge backs!  they should be illegal! 

I have been scammed by chargebacks.

When the dot.com bubble burst and I was unemployed, I tried selling software I wrote on my website.

Someone paid with paypal and then initiated a chargeback. I complained to paypal and they said if there isn't a proof of delivery they have to side with the buyer.

So then I started shipping it on CDR and made the mistake of being honest to my customers stating it was burned on CDR.

There was again a chargeback and PayPal said they have a policy against burned media so they had to side with the buyer.

Then I bought photoshop on eBay and was delivered an obvious pirate copy on burned media. I didn't want pirate copy, so I contacted PayPal and they wouldn't do a chargeback. I asked about the burned media policy and they said they only have my word that what was received was burned. I could file a police report but if I did chargeback with my credit card company I would be banned from PayPal.

An escrow is the way to go. If you have a dispute with one escrow and don't like their decision you can stop using that escrow and use a different one. Bitcoin makes that easy. PayPal does not.

[worldtreasurefinders]

Fiat doesn't magically equal fraud insurance.  Fraud insurance comes as a service of your bank or credit card.  And the police, since fraud is illegal.  None of that has to do with the type of money you're using though.  All of that could easily be built on top of bitcoin as well.  What your post is actually saying is "bitcoin is harder to use because fewer people use it and less services are built on it".  Well, no shit Sherlock.

My thoughts exactly.  All of the fraud protection measures built into the current financial system are not inherent in the fiat money itself.  Bitcoin is still very young, in it's infancy on the world financial markets, but as it grows and matures, methods of protecting consumers will surface and various types of fraud protection services will become available.

[BurtW]

Fiat is very good for one thing:  paying your taxes.  They only accept their own fiat for that.

[smscotten]

Finally, as far as having BTC137K to keep safe, I hope I'm not being too naïve to think that that is a job for encrypted wallets. you're right; I wouldn't trust that kind of money to any of the online wallets out there. The only way someone is going to compromise my bitcoin account is with some drugs and a $5 wrench.

LOL, can't tell if sarcastic or not.

I was trying to be funny (or more correctly referring to someone else who was actually funny) but not at all sarcastic. A vandal could conceivably destroy my Bitcoin but I don't see how a thief could take it from me without my given it to them, either because of threat of violence or fraudulent promises.