bitcoin.co.th trading suspended

[e4xit]

In this context

What a bunch of retards gather sometimes on these forums?

We all should be grateful to OP for the timely info he gave us about Thai central bank order to suspend his Bitcoin business. Instead bunch of idiots decided to blame him for bank's decision.

becoin, I think I understand now why your ignore glows so brightly....

You appear to have responded to this 'announcement' from Dave by blindly accepting it and calling those who ask for evidence "retards". Do you have the capacity for individual critical thinking?

It also appears from your above statement, that you have missed the entire point of this thread; no-one as far as I can tell is bothering to argue over whether Dave111223 had a meeting with BoT (although it has not been proved, it is not really important), what we are debating is his outrageous claim that "Bitcoin is illegal in Thailand".

-ignore-

kthx

[dave111223]

I invited anyone seeking knowledge to PM me and I received exactly 0 PMs; which I think shows that the naysayers here are not interested in anything other than flaming and smearing in order to restore stability to their own environments.

You can accuse me of spreading FUD; I was similarly chastised when being first to post about lengthy delays in the Mt Gox wire transferred several weeks before their hiatus.

Not to worry, such pharisaical people will not prevent me from making any future information I come across available to the general bitcoin community.  As I know most of the community is made up of intelligent individual who are able to take in all available info and opinions, analyze it and come to their own conclusions. As opposed to the vocal minority who seek to censor anything which may cause them to make desperate and irrational decisions.

[Lohoris]

<tinfoil> I'm wondering if that was intentional...

[darkmule]

At the conclusion of the meeting senior members of the Foreign Exchange Administration and Policy Department advised that due to lack of existing applicable laws, capital controls and the fact that Bitcoin straddles multiple financial facets the following Bitcoin activities are illegal in Thailand:

Buying Bitcoins
Selling Bitcoins
Buying any goods or services in exchange for Bitcoins
Selling any goods or services for Bitcoins
Sending Bitcoins to anyone located outside of Thailand
Receiving Bitcoins from anyone located outside of Thailand

Can we just agree that this might be what they said to him, that they believed it was illegal, that Dave himself didn't (mean to) say that it was illegal, but in the case that it was, he closed operations just to avoid legal ramifications? I really don't want this guy to go to jail for some misunderstanding.

Actually, no.  I am not an expert in Thailand's laws.  I don't think anyone in this thread is.

However, so far as I can tell, they said no such things.  It seems that OP asked the Bank of Thailand for an affirmative statement that these activities are legal.  He suspended activities based, assuming everyone has been truthful, on the Bank of Thailand's NOT stating affirmatively that his actions are legal.  They appear, in fact, to have reserved judgment for another time.

There does not appear to be any statement that any of these activities are illegal.  While OP has possibly done us a long-term service in prodding the Bank of Thailand to provide some regulatory certainty so that business can continue, he might also have simply recklessly prodded a scary state entity to make a bad, hasty decision.  I guess we'll see in a week or two.  I'll judge the action by its results.

But nothing in Thailand that has any power to make laws has actually said Bitcoin is illegal.  Goat is completely right on that part.  The Bank of Thailand might or might not say that really soon, but it just hasn't yet.  And if a central bank says something with legal significance, it says it on paper.

[darkmule]

You were caught in a huge lie.

He was caught making a statement that turns out not to have much factual foundation.  (It may ultimately turn out to have been true, or at least partly true.)

I haven't seen any reason to believe he was deliberately lying.  Why would he?

[vokain]

At the conclusion of the meeting senior members of the Foreign Exchange Administration and Policy Department advised that due to lack of existing applicable laws, capital controls and the fact that Bitcoin straddles multiple financial facets the following Bitcoin activities are illegal in Thailand:

Buying Bitcoins
Selling Bitcoins
Buying any goods or services in exchange for Bitcoins
Selling any goods or services for Bitcoins
Sending Bitcoins to anyone located outside of Thailand
Receiving Bitcoins from anyone located outside of Thailand

Can we just agree that this might be what they said to him, that they believed it was illegal, that Dave himself didn't (mean to) say that it was illegal, but in the case that it was, he closed operations just to avoid legal ramifications? I really don't want this guy to go to jail for some misunderstanding.

Actually, no.  I am not an expert in Thailand's laws.  I don't think anyone in this thread is.

However, so far as I can tell, they said no such things.  It seems that OP asked the Bank of Thailand for an affirmative statement that these activities are legal.  He suspended activities based, assuming everyone has been truthful, on the Bank of Thailand's NOT stating affirmatively that his actions are legal.  They appear, in fact, to have reserved judgment for another time.

There does not appear to be any statement that any of these activities are illegal.  While OP has possibly done us a long-term service in prodding the Bank of Thailand to provide some regulatory certainty so that business can continue, he might also have simply recklessly prodded a scary state entity to make a bad, hasty decision.  I guess we'll see in a week or two.  I'll judge the action by its results.

But nothing in Thailand that has any power to make laws has actually said Bitcoin is illegal.  Goat is completely right on that part.  The Bank of Thailand might or might not say that really soon, but it just hasn't yet.  And if a central bank says something with legal significance, it says it on paper.

might being key word

also, Dave acknowledging that mining bitcoins and gifting bitcoins is legal leads me to believe the specificity of the above was what was said at some point, though any evidence of a record or even the existence of such a record could not be disclosed for one reason or another.

[dave111223]

You were caught in a huge lie.

He was caught making a statement that turns out not to have much factual foundation.  (It may ultimately turn out to have been true, or at least partly true.)

I haven't seen any reason to believe he was deliberately lying.  Why would he?

I'm going to assume he was either repeating what his translator or American lawyer told him. So I guess ignorance, as he seems to really think BTC still is illegal for some reason even though it was highly unlogical to think that if he had the slightest clue how the legals system works here in Thailand.


Making statements with no factual foundation is pretty much exactly what happened. The fact that he left this untrue statement on his website, when he has been given correcting information by the bank is highly troubling in my mind.

Why not correct your website Dave?

The website is not owned by me, it is owned by Bitcoin Co. Ltd., of which I hold no ownership.  There are no untrue statements on the website.

[greyhawk]

The website is not owned by me, it is owned by Bitcoin Co. Ltd., of which I hold no ownership.  There are no untrue statements on the website.

Laffo,

let's put an end to this charade.

You are David Barnes of Boca Raton, Florida
- http://profiles.wordpress.org/dave111223/
- http://advancedstyle.com
- http://www.whois.com/whois/advancedstyle.com

A whois of Bitcoin.co.th lists one "Tachpicha ketmayoon Barnes",
an obvious pseudonym you have repeatedly used (and tried but failed
to hide behind whoisguard) on your various other failed websites such
as the fake soccer shirts store and the cheap plastic jewelry store,
all connected through their design by advancedstyle.com too.

bitcoin.in.th (a redirect to bitcoin.co.th) has an rname property of
"rname: dave.advancedstyle.com"

Explain again how you have no control over the site?

[dave111223]

However can you tell us that you do not have the power to adjust the message on that page?      I bet you can and that you are just trying to play games?

No untrue statements eh? Nice use of a double negative, I guess you did that because you can not say all statements are true?

Your spreading FUD and doing so after getting the public correction from the Bank is very troubling.

Thanks Dave for your support of BTC in Thailand.

Yes I have power to "adjust" text on many websites, but would not consider doing so without the site owners consent obviously.

Yes I can say "All statements are true", as I have said all along.  Which part of the statements are talking about that were "public corrected"?   It seems to me the bank statements correlated with the details in the website statement, but they chose to omit reference to the direct details of bitcoin legality.

Which parts of the website statement were "corrected"?

[Stn]

We should not be very hard on Dave. Obviously he didn't make all this noise on purpose. Yellow press did. He seems another naive westerner newcomer to Asia lost in translation. The only his guilt I see that he went overprotective. Instead of admitting his misunderstanding he was going deep and deep in to quagmire of silly arguments. Like this one.

...but why ask the business to stop operation if they are operating perfectly legally?

Then why go at all to the Bank for license if they are operating legally?

Dave you put the Bank in bad situation asking it to license what it's not able to license. First mistake.

You asked for money exchange license though your operation falling into e-money field, which is licensed differently. Second mistake.

But even if you asked for e-money license it won't be granted to you as the current regulation assumes underwriter entity and other traditional stuff which is not applicable for Bitcoin. You (or your lawer) didn't learn money related regulation prior to application, didn't seek for consultancy. Yes, it is not your duty to study laws, but it was your third mistake.

[dave111223]

greyhawk your post contains so many inaccuracies it is comical.

[greyhawk]

Let me guess. The Boca Raton adress is fake. How wiley.

[dave111223]

Yes, this is pretty much what happened. This however does not mean BTC is illegal in Thailand. Dave, will you admit you were wrong on that or do you still think BTC is illegal?

Yes I still think the original website statement was accurate, that BoT offered advice that an extensive list of bitcoin activities were/are illegal.

[dave111223]

Yes, this is pretty much what happened. This however does not mean BTC is illegal in Thailand. Dave, will you admit you were wrong on that or do you still think BTC is illegal?

Yes I still think the original website statement was accurate, that BoT offered advice that an extensive list of bitcoin activities were/are illegal.

You said on this forum that BTC was illegal in Thailand, I am asking YOU if YOU think BTC is illegal in Thailand.

Can YOU please answer the question?

Yes I think most of Bitcoin activities are illegal.  With the exception of a few that were mentioned earlier in the topic, such as mining, gifting within the country etc..

Do I want them to be illegal? No of course not

Do I think you could challenge the legality of bitcoins through the court if charges were brought?  Yes, but if you lose there are criminal penalties associated with running financial services (such as money changer) without a license (ie 10 years in prison)

[dave111223]

Can you please point to any law or any statement why you think this?

Yes I can point to the original link, which I have already said is accurate.

The Bank clearly does not think BTC is illegal

This is opposite from the truth and where if your reference for them saying it is "not illegal" (or "legal") either will do


Here are some references you may be interested in:
Law: look at #4 http://www.kodmhai.com/m4/m4-2/h82/m1-9.html กฏควบ คุมการแลกเปลียน มาตรา 4
Law: look at #9 http://www.baanjomyut.com/library/law/82.html พ ร บ เงินตรา มาตรา 9

[dave111223]

Can you please point to any law or any statement why you think this?

Yes I can point to the original link, which I have already said is accurate.

The Bank clearly does not think BTC is illegal

This is opposite from the truth and where if your reference for them saying it is "not illegal" (or "legal") either will do


Here are some references you may be interested in:
Law: look at #4 http://www.kodmhai.com/m4/m4-2/h82/m1-9.html กฏควบ คุมการแลกเปลียน มาตรา 4
Law: look at #9 http://www.baanjomyut.com/library/law/82.html พ ร บ เงินตรา มาตรา 9

I never said BTC was legal, as in protected by law. But your claim was that BTW was ILLEGAL meaning there is a law saying BTC is illegal.

You then went to say that everything in Thailand is illegal unless it is legal. That is just silly.

I just want to know where there is a law that says BTC is illegal.

Edit: In your links it does not say BTC is illegal :/    

If it is your legal opinion that those laws don't apply to Bitcoin, then continue to operate as normal.  However it's important to know the possible ramifications (as previously mentioned 10 years in prison for operating as as an unlicensed "money changer").  I'm sure similar penalties apply for selling unlicensed financial instruments, or unlicensed epayment transmitter; whichever way they want to define BTC on the day.

Of course I'm not sure of your situation.  If you are just dealing on the down low (localbitcoins) cash in suitcase sort of thing then the chance of you having legal troubles are probably nill.

If you are a static target then the risk is greatly increased.

Or if they trace back that a drug dealer, or bomber in the south used your service to move money to buy bombs or something then it's squeaky bum time.

[ab8989]

I believe there is the possibility OP just got caught in the cracks between different departments and different laws governing them. It is possible that there is both a broad and a narrow interpretation of what money changer business is. To some department running an BTC exchange looks like a money changer business and therefore it needs a license. On the other hand the department that issues these licences they have their own narrow definition of what a good money changer business looks like and to whom they are happy to issue licenses. This BTC exchange might just look too odd to them so that they are not ready to jump issuing the license immediately just on this very week when you first asked about it.

If some company that already runs a Baht-USD-EUR money changer business and has got a license based on that decides to add BTC to their portfolio, it might be that no official says anything because everything looks totally fine to everybody.

OP just has to figure out what details are needed so that you fulfil the criterias that the government have written down and have been using for years to judge whether a new business qualifies for the licenses. Changing the government policies and criterias is not likely to happen overnight. Spreading rumours that BTC is illegal in Thailand, it might make it more like an uphill battle in this quest to get a license.

[greyhawk]

Or you could read the thread.

[Chang Hum]

The website is not owned by me, it is owned by Bitcoin Co. Ltd., of which I hold no ownership.  There are no untrue statements on the website.

Laffo,

let's put an end to this charade.

You are David Barnes of Boca Raton, Florida
- http://profiles.wordpress.org/dave111223/
- http://advancedstyle.com
- http://www.whois.com/whois/advancedstyle.com

A whois of Bitcoin.co.th lists one "Tachpicha ketmayoon Barnes",
an obvious pseudonym you have repeatedly used (and tried but failed
to hide behind whoisguard) on your various other failed websites such
as the fake soccer shirts store and the cheap plastic jewelry store,
all connected through their design by advancedstyle.com too.

bitcoin.in.th (a redirect to bitcoin.co.th) has an rname property of
"rname: dave.advancedstyle.com"

Explain again how you have no control over the site?

Tachpicha is a ladies name in Thailand the fact it has Barnes at the end of it's likely to be his wife rather than a pseudonym!

[ab8989]

Or you could read the thread.

Was that to me?

When a senior official at a central bank tells you point-blank, "buying or selling bitcoins is illegal", unless you have a seriously large legal fund and willing to fight all the way to the constitutional courts if necessary, you take it seriously.

I still think that there is a serious possibility that the official saying this really meant: "Buying and selling bitcoins without a money changer license is illegal and since you don't have one, you better stop doing it"

Is there some particular reason I am not allowed to think that and I am not allowed to write about it? A more BTC positive idea than most of the other posts that to me seem very negative towards the future of BTC in Thailand?