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Author Topic: 2013-07-30 Digital Asset Transfer Authority Announced  (Read 10353 times)
QuantPlus
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August 02, 2013, 03:23:42 AM
 #21

Some people here stop reading when they see "Bitcoin" and "regulation" in a sentence together, but most of the people that have posted here actually also stop THINKING when they read those words it seems. Wow.

Where Bitcoin interacts with the fiat-world there is going to be friction because of the nature of Bitcoin. Any effort to smooth this interaction should be encouraged, and I'm glad to see the first real attempt at accomplishing this. The sad thing is that so many people think this is "bringing regulation to Bitcoin", when in fact it's doing exactly the opposite.

It's all an elaborate ploy to evade Govt Regulation as long as possible...
And then profit from the best deal available.

How ironic that people who have devoted their lives to circumventing legitimate Govt Authority...
Have now created an SRO with the most Draconian possible name = "Authority"...
In spite of the fact that it has precisely none.

It's all about money, boys and girls...
Billions of $$$ for the lawyers and corporations involved...
People who cannot be satisfies by ANY amount of zeros...
And they sure don't care how they make it... or who they take it away from.

And unfortunately...
This is not about Hollywood movies or music or pr0n = BitTorrent/Tor = tiny potatoes

Its about the absolute Nexus of All Power = Money (and Privacy)...
And this group is selling you out in a bid to become the tech Oligarchs.

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August 02, 2013, 08:26:52 PM
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QuantPlus,

I certainly share your concerns but I find it quite disingenuous of you to claim to know so much about the intentions an organization that was announced less then as week ago and could not have been an idea in anyone's mind prior to the March 18th FinCEN guidance here in the US.

The stated goal of D.A.T.A is to interact with government NOT evade.

Data has NO authority.  But it's  members seem to have an extensive depth and experience in these emerging technologies.

"tech Oligarchs"  - interesting. You must be Russian.  You did get fucked.  So I can see your concern.  So sorry that was your experience and thus the root of your anger and resentment.

Well this is not Russia.  We'll see how this plays out.

In the meantime you should start  "ASOTO" (Authority Stamp Out Tech Oligarchs).









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August 03, 2013, 12:16:27 AM
 #23

Well this is not Russia.  We'll see how this plays out.


I have tried - really hard - to see the world as you see it. Murck makes it seem very benign, and it's possible you share the same vision.

Nevertheless, there is something very chilling about your avatar and your themes.

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August 03, 2013, 02:23:41 AM
 #24

Ha!  Never tonight of that. Maybe I should change it.
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August 03, 2013, 03:23:45 PM
 #25

This is not a bad idea guys.  An organization like this is harmless and should be helpful for the most part.  As long as the core bitcoin protocol and currency itself is decentralized and secure then who cares what centralized organization (mtgox), application or technology is built on top of it.  If and when these entities fail, the core system remains intact and strong as ever and other entities will take their place.  I am of the opinion that eventually peer-to-peer based systems will replace certain parts of government anyway probably starting with voting.  Lets face it, the 1950s style voting systems in the US are obsolete at best.  You seriously still have to go to the polls to vote instead of using the internet combined with one of the many or a combination of the many authentication methods available to verify identity and virtually eliminate fraud.  It is only a matter of time. 

/rant

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August 03, 2013, 04:10:38 PM
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This is not a bad idea guys.  An organization like this is harmless and should be helpful for the most part.  As long as the core bitcoin protocol and currency itself is decentralized and secure then who cares what centralized organization (mtgox), application or technology is built on top of it.  If and when these entities fail, the core system remains intact and strong as ever and other entities will take their place.  I am of the opinion that eventually peer-to-peer based systems will replace certain parts of government anyway probably starting with voting.  Lets face it, the 1950s style voting systems in the US are obsolete at best.  You seriously still have to go to the polls to vote instead of using the internet combined with one of the many or a combination of the many authentication methods available to verify identity and virtually eliminate fraud.  It is only a matter of time. 

/rant

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August 03, 2013, 04:17:22 PM
 #27

Why no one from gox being on Founding Members list, If this going succeed we will see coinsetter will take over the exchange market.

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August 04, 2013, 03:43:25 PM
 #28

F*** regulation.

Governments are the ones that need to be regulated and Bitcoin is here to do it.


Here is what DATA really is: "Hey guys those clowns over at the Bitcoin Foundation made a lot of money from authority loving suckers, lets do the same!"

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August 04, 2013, 06:44:50 PM
 #29

Given D.A.T.A has no authority, why is it called an authority? Seems like a pretty sinister name for something intended to be benign.

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August 07, 2013, 05:20:13 AM
 #30

Quote
Government is consensus.  Government is formed by individuals.  Individuals make decisions that affect our so cities collectively.  D.A.T.A want to engage with these individuals.  They nave names, they have families, they have children, they are humans just like the rest of us.  And when you separate the individual from the Government monster that many envision you would be surprised how effective advocacy can be.  This is how we choose to engage.

Revolutionaries die.  And when you take your bullet I'll appreciate your effort on our behalf.  And I'll remember you in 20 or 30 years when we are all living in a practical and efficient digital economy that was made possible by all of our efforts.  However  I'm a pragmatist.  I like practical application to solving a problem.

I'm not sure if you know how delusionally utopian this sounds, but thanks for expounding your ideals for a pragmatic approach to what is objectively a dysfunctional government system. However, I don't suppose you will be advocating those touchy-feeling individuals in the govt. to change their draconian AML/KYC laws that shut poor people out of the banking system then ... not much advantage for lawyers in that is there?

AML/KYC and NSA are different heads of the same velvet-glove facist state beast you seem happy to blindly ignore ...

Yes Marcus, the "Government is consensus" thing sounds so nice and comforting to some.

A short well explained video on what it really is : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGIgOIFdnMQ ("Statism is Dead")
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August 07, 2013, 01:29:38 PM
 #31

Given D.A.T.A has no authority, why is it called an authority? Seems like a pretty sinister name for something intended to be benign.

Because they want to be an authority.

Technically, it can't have total authority. Bitcoins are open source and decentralized, and shouldn't be able to be controlled by anyone. However, realistically an organization which has influence over the exchanges and regulates transactions would have some power.

It seems similar to governments in place now. Technically, they can't force us to do anything. But realistically, to go against them means imprisonment or death.

Obviously DATA isn't going to kill anyone, but going against their restrictions might make it more expensive and hard for exchanges/transactors that don't go along with it to run.
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August 07, 2013, 02:07:36 PM
 #32

Data is an authority in that many of its member have deep knowledge of the technology and the business experience within the digital currency space.  This is something that government regulators do NOT have.  DATA can use its expertise in this area to educate legislators and regulators so they don't continue to put out over reaching guidance that kills this technology in its infancy just because they don't understand it.

I think it is important to understand that DATA was formed by those businesses mentioned in the release.  The stated goal is to operate their businesses legally within their jurisdiction and to assist with creating "best practices" for virtual currency business as their operation relates or is required by government laws and regulation with in their respective jurisdictions.

If you are not a member of DATA you should have no issue.  If you do not agree with its mission then you don't have to join.  

Bitcoin is a protocol, the satoshi client is a peice of software that anyone with an internet connection can down load and connect to the new virtual economy.  You don't need DATA or the Bitcoin Foundation or Bitcoin Talk to do this.  
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August 08, 2013, 01:30:43 AM
 #33

This thread is an attempt to be a civil public discussion.  This is a public forum and you are certainly welcome to participate but I don't think childish personal attacks really help support your position.

Thanks.
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August 08, 2013, 01:48:57 PM
 #34

I still don't understand the purpose of DATA.

Is it to influence good business practices?
    -What does this mean? No organization should have any power over bitcoins, whether it's just "influence" or outright control.

Is it to talk to legislators?

And finally, why do we need it? Why do legislators have to be talked to in the first place? Any "law" they make is a joke, since they can't actually regulate bitcoins.

Is there a mission statement? I haven't checked the DATA site in weeks, but when I did quite frankly it was pointless...
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August 08, 2013, 02:47:26 PM
 #35

I still don't understand the purpose of DATA

Is it to influence good business practices?
    -What does this mean? No organization should have any power over bitcoins, whether it's just "influence" or outright control.

From the DATA website: This open project is developing best practices and standards for management of digital asset transfers worldwide.  

Is it to talk to legislators?

Yes.

And finally, why do we need it? Why do legislators have to be talked to in the first place? Any "law" they make is a joke, since they can't actually regulate bitcoins.

That you your opinion an you are welcome to it.

However groups like
http://www.nbpca.com/
http://www.finra.org/
and many other have helped shape the conversation and regularly engage with regulations and legislators it their respective fields

Is there a mission statement? I haven't checked the DATA site in weeks, but when I did quite frankly it was pointless...

DATA does not have a complete mission statement yes DATA is only a committee to explore the creation of a Self Regulation Committee called D.A.T.A.

However the intentions of the organization are laid out in the press release.

the Committee for the Establishment of the Digital Asset Transfer Authority will:

1. Develop best practice anti-money laundering and sanctions compliance standards for emerging payments and virtual currency firms;

2.  ... serve as a source of business and technical standards for the prudent and responsible conduct of payment transactions;

3. Engage with member firms, merchants and customers, regulators, law enforcement and legislators to identify and address emergent public policy concerns and risks affecting our industry; and

4. Work to establish the Digital Asset Transfer Authority (“DATA”), ideally as a formal self-regulatory organization, to develop, publish and ensure member compliance with standards. We envision that DATA, when fully established, will:

a. Have a decision-making board, a majority of whose members will be independent of the industry, advised but not bound by advisory committees of technical experts and members;

b. Develop and administer appropriate oversight processes and accountabilities for members who do not meet DATA’s business and technical standards; and

c. Approve new or modified member standards as the marketplace, technology, and regulatory expectations evolve.


You don't have to be a member of D.A.T.A. but its members are indicating they would uphold these initial principles once a formal organization is in place.


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August 08, 2013, 02:52:20 PM
 #36

Some people here stop reading when they see "Bitcoin" and "regulation" in a sentence together, but most of the people that have posted here actually also stop THINKING when they read those words it seems. Wow.

Where Bitcoin interacts with the fiat-world there is going to be friction because of the nature of Bitcoin. Any effort to smooth this interaction should be encouraged, and I'm glad to see the first real attempt at accomplishing this. The sad thing is that so many people think this is "bringing regulation to Bitcoin", when in fact it's doing exactly the opposite.

It's all an elaborate ploy to evade Govt Regulation as long as possible...
And then profit from the best deal available.

How ironic that people who have devoted their lives to circumventing legitimate Govt Authority...
Have now created an SRO with the most Draconian possible name = "Authority"...
In spite of the fact that it has precisely none.

It's all about money, boys and girls...
Billions of $$$ for the lawyers and corporations involved...
People who cannot be satisfies by ANY amount of zeros...
And they sure don't care how they make it... or who they take it away from.

And unfortunately...
This is not about Hollywood movies or music or pr0n = BitTorrent/Tor = tiny potatoes

Its about the absolute Nexus of All Power = Money (and Privacy)...
And this group is selling you out in a bid to become the tech Oligarchs.


What you wrote!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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August 08, 2013, 02:54:10 PM
 #37

Given D.A.T.A has no authority, why is it called an authority? Seems like a pretty sinister name for something intended to be benign.

National Socialist German Worker's Party sounded pretty benign at the start......................

My $.02.

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August 08, 2013, 03:20:48 PM
 #38

From the DATA website: This open project is developing best practices and standards for management of digital asset transfers worldwide.

But what does that mean? What is the "best" practice? The "best" standard? Best is a very subjective term.

Quote
That you your opinion an you are welcome to it.

Explain to me how legislators will control BTC. They can't stop SR, The Armory (and similar sites), money laundering, or any of the illegal activities that go along with it. How will they stop legal ones?


Quote
1. Develop best practice anti-money laundering and sanctions compliance standards for emerging payments and virtual currency firms;

People are free to do what they want with their money. Once bitcoin takes off as an actual currency there won't be laundering money through bitcoins because bitcoins will be the money.

Quote
2.  serve as a source of business and technical standards for the prudent and responsible conduct of payment transactions;

Who defines these "standards"? Why are standards needed? Aren't bitcoins supposed to be regulated by the community?

Quote
3. Engage with member firms, merchants and customers, regulators, law enforcement and legislators to identify and address emergent public policy concerns and risks affecting our industry; and

Since when is bitcoin an industry? It's supposed to be a currency. You don't talk about the booming "pound" industry or the "USD" industry. And why would you comply with the government? They are not friends of bitcoin.

Quote
a. Have a decision-making board, a majority of whose members will be independent of the industry, advised but not bound by advisory committees of technical experts and members;

Why is bitcoin an industry?

Quote

b. Develop and administer appropriate oversight processes and accountabilities for members who do not meet DATA’s business and technical standards; and

c. Approve new or modified member standards as the marketplace, technology, and regulatory expectations evolve.

You don't have to be a member of D.A.T.A. but its members are indicating they would uphold these initial principles once a formal organization is in place.

I don't have to be a member... but I'm sure at some point it would become impractical to not be a member if you are a large exchange or business. If there are "standards" for members then there is some form of regulation.

These "standards" worry me. You keep saying "you don't have to join DATA" yet you want it to be popular, and you're going to be enforcing standards upon all of your members.

Which is it? Useful "suggestions" or actual, member-compliant standards that must be followed?

If bitcoin gets regulated, it's basically just fiat, rendering it pointless.
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August 08, 2013, 03:38:14 PM
 #39

In My opinion "Best Practices" ==  "safe for consumers" and operating "within the law"

I DO NOT promote bitcoin reversibility or regulating bitcoin the protocol.

Legislators can not control bitcoin the protocol. But they can and have made it very difficult for bitcoin businesses, exchanges and miners to operate legally in the United States.

Bitcoin may become "currency" and that would be great.  Right now there are not enough places to purchases good and services with bitcoin so it make exchanges and work arounds like "GYFT" necessary.  It is at these choke points that government has and will continue to impose restrictions if the existing bitcoin businesses do not engage them.

The Bitcoin foundation has already done this on behalf of all bitcoiner with its answer to the cease and desist from California and it's comments to FinCEN and D.A.T.A will also do this on behalf of its members.

"Standards" will be defined by the members of D.A.T.A and they are currently being formulated.

"Bitcoin Industry" =  Miners, Mining equipment manufactures, exchanges, payment processors, merchants, users.  Everyone in the bitcoin ecosystem could be considered part of the bitcoin industry.  However you have to remember that the bitcoin is a peer to peer decentralized network.  You need no intermediary.  You don't have to buy or sell coins on Gox.  You can trade directly with anyone any where.  You can use localbitcoins.com etc.

I do not see D.A.T.A. as a popularity contest.  Not sure where you got that.  The list of signatory members have basically said the they want to create an organization to create best practices for its members.  And at the very least I believe its member would like to operate their businesses legally in there jurisdictions and if the law is not clear (as is the case in the US) the organization wants to engage legislators and regulators to help them better understand the protocol and its many benefits and ask for better clarity of the regulation or regulation better suited to virtual currency and emerging payments.  

This effort may have no effect but right now it is clear that governments are providing guidance that in my opinion says "We don't understand this, we FEAR the implications, so we are going to outlaw it or severely restrict it."  And with out "industry" input governments may continue to unfavorably regulate our industry.

DATA is one groups effort to collectively engage in that process.


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August 08, 2013, 04:42:26 PM
 #40



Big government types who are only here to help you out!

"help yout out"; right.

HELP YOU RIGHT OUT OF BUSINESS!

Halfwits!



Why did you quote me, halfwit? Nothing you said was relevant to what I said.
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