2013-07-30 Digital Asset Transfer Authority Announced

[BCB]

http://info.datauthority.org/
At the forefront of emerging payments, virtual currency, and other financial technology innovations, our companies are pioneering new services with potential to reduce the friction and cost of payments substantially and make low cost payment services available to hundreds of millions of individuals and businesses around the world. To reach this potential, to inspire confidence in the services we offer, and to ensure fair and responsible treatment of consumers and merchants, we believe our industry must evolve in compliance with law and regulation. We must work proactively with regulators and policymakers to adapt their requirements to our technologies and business models. We must develop and implement common risk management and compliance standards that address the public policy concerns associated with our businesses. And our firms must build risk management and compliance programs that meet those standards.

Financial Inclusion and The Digital Asset Transfer Authority (DATA)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stan-stalnaker/digital-asset-transfer-authority_b_3673517.html
Today, a group of over 15 leaders from the emerging payment and virtual currency industry announced the formation of a Committee for the Establishment of the Digital Asset Transfer Authority. The committee seeks to foster prudent, responsible development of new technologies at the forefront of a sea change in finance that will add 2.5 billion people to the economic system in the next four years.


Don't Let Bitcoin Morph into Govcoin
http://www.americanbanker.com/bankthink/do-not-let-bitcoin-morph-into-govcoin-1060955-1.html
an SRO in the spirit of the National Futures Association and National Association of Realtors could be emerging for the disruptive Bitcoin cryptocurrency and other digital assets. The Committee for the Establishment of the Digital Asset Transfer Authority is set to announce its launch Tuesday in conjunction with several leading industry participants and the well-connected Promontory Group as an advisor.

[1714137573]

1714137573

[1714137573]

1714137573

[1714137573]

1714137573

[1714137573]

1714137573

[1714137573]

1714137573

[1714137573]

1714137573

[BCB]

Please understand that the Bitcoin Foundation had taken up the mantle of standardizing and protecting and prompting the bitcoin protocol.  You can chose to use this protocol, an alt protocol or fork the code and create your own.

The Ditital Asset Transfer Authority's goal is to engage, educate and assist bitcoin business, users, regulators and legislators in understanding and fully complying with the laws and regulation of their respective countries.  Again you can chose to be a part of this effort or not. Or you can start your own effort.

However with the recent action including:

The March 18th Financial Crimes Enforcement Action Guidance (made with out a request for comments).
The May 7h inditement of Liberty Reserve and subequent seizure of affiliated domains.
The May 14 seizure of Mt Gox's assests in Veridian Credit Union by the US Department of Homeland Security
The July 23rd civil charges filed against Trendon Shavers for his bitcoin denominated ponzi scheme.

The US government and goverments around the work have clearly show that expect this new technology to exist with in the existing legal boundaries regardless of where you operate.

There are laws and regulations in each of our contrives that exist now with relation to virtual currencies regardless of what some of the geniuses on this forum thinks and there are SERIOUS consequences for not obeying these laws EVEN IF YOU ARE IGNORANT OF THEM.

The goal of D.A.T.A. is to seek clarity of these laws and regulation for the benefit of our greater community, to educate and create a dialogue with legislators, regulators and law enforcement to aid them in fully understanding and comprehending the the many beneficial aspects of this incredibly disruptive technology and ultimate engage our legislators and regulator in creating laws and regulation and better serve the virtual currency and emerging payments movement so that they foster and encourage the safe and legal growth of these technologies instead of pigeon holing this space into onerous and confusing existing relation.

D.A.T.A. is making this effort.  You obviously don't have to participate or support this effort.  

[epetroel]

The goal of D.A.T.A. is to ... ultimate engage our legislators and regulator in creating laws and regulation and better serve the virtual currency and emergency payments movement

What is this "emergency payments" movement?  This is the first I've heard of that term.  Sounds like you're teaming up with payday lenders or something

[BCB]

The goal of D.A.T.A. is to ... ultimate engage our legislators and regulator in creating laws and regulation and better serve the virtual currency and emergency payments movement

What is this "emergency payments" movement?  This is the first I've heard of that term.  Sounds like you're teaming up with payday lenders or something

AUTO CORRECT ERROR

"emerging" payments corrected.

[marcus_of_augustus]

There are laws and regulations in each of our contrives that exist now with relation to virtual currencies regardless of what some of the geniuses on this forum thinks and there are SERIOUS consequences for not obeying these laws EVEN IF YOU ARE IGNORANT OF THEM.

If only Wall St. and Washington were more respectful of the laws, your vociferous endorsements of a corrupt system might ring less hollow. In other news, the NSA is unconstitutionally collecting all of your on-line data. Maybe they need "educating" also? You'd think lawyers would have plenty to keep themselves busy besides virtual currencies in MMPOGs .... basically, get a life.

[daviducsb]

I'm glad some of the people who are not the anarchist living in mom's basement types are actually thinking pragmatically about bitcoin adoption. The Matonis article delineates firm parameters along with a willingness to engage with the people who ultimately write our laws. This is wise and forward thinking on many levels.

[Gabi]

The problem is that this can only end bad: look at how regulations fucked the current system

[marcus_of_augustus]

I'm glad some of the people who are not the anarchist living in mom's basement types are actually thinking pragmatically about bitcoin adoption.

Because all the "anarchist living in mom's basement types" think that lawyers upholding the principles of a constitutional republic is a more noble pursuit than lining up to clip the ticket through extraneous regulation on the latest innovation that the .... wait, "anarchist living in mom's basement types" have just delivered close to their greedy grasp?

[Blazr2]

I'm glad some of the people who are not the anarchist living in mom's basement types are actually thinking pragmatically about bitcoin adoption.

Because all the "anarchist living in mom's basement types" think that lawyers upholding the principles of a constitutional republic is a more noble pursuit than lining up to clip the ticket through extraneous regulation on the latest innovation that the .... wait, "anarchist living in mom's basement types" have just delivered close to their greedy grasp?

+1. very keen to the subject matter and ultimately exposing his blanket statement. Those who care more about cryptocurrency than basic liberties really need their heads checked. i for one, couldn't give a fuck either way if they regulate bitcoin. i'll just switch to some other currency as the legislators rape and turn bitcoin into the next paypal.

Ironically, those of us in the crypto world and possibly even liberatarians as a whole are just like the patriots back in 1776. we oppose the goverment taxation without representation much the way our forefathers despised the taxation of the Brits.

[BCB]

It is clear that many posting here do not understand the underlying technology of the bitcoin protocol.  I would suggest you read the Satoshi white paper (http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf) or do some other basic research to help you better under the strengths and benefits of this disruptive technology.

To give you a simple description, it is not possible to "regulate" bitcoin as it is a distributed, decentralized, peer-to-peer, digital currency governed by the consensus of its users.  Anyone anywhere in the world with an internet connection can download the satoshi wallet or access a web wallet.  You can mine bitcoins if you like.  You can send and receive bitcoins to any other person anywhere in any amount who provides you with their public key to make that transfer.

You can also exchange many fiat currencies for bitcoins.  However this is where the friction arises.  There are existing laws and regulation regarding money and currency and the movement of these funds.  Unfortunately some governments have seen fit to try to peg the round peg of bitcoin in the the square hole of existing law or regulation and it just does not fit very well.  This is the problem we are trying to address.

If you follow the bitcoin news you know that Thailand's central bank declared Bitcoins illegal (if that is legally possible), because after learning about the technology they had no idea how it fit into any of there existing regulation.  This kills innovations and does a terrible serviced to the individuals of a society.   This is what D.A.T.A. is trying to prevent. 

I certainly understand anti-government sentiment.  I can't imagine anyone could be happy to learn of the NSA surveillance effort and the many other documented and undocumented examples of governmental over-reach.

However governments provide a multitude of benefits that we take for granted every.  Try to live a month or a week or a day of your life without government intervention.  Park your car in your garage.  Stay off any paved road.  Do not cross any bridge.  Take your children out of school.  Do not visit a hospital.  Do not use public transportation.  Turn off your computer.    Take the fiat out of your pocket and burn it. Take the clothes off your back.   Cut your self off from the power grid. Interesting thought experiment.       

I hope you better understand now how bitcoin can not be "regulated" and they while governments often make bad or unfair decision that you can not easily just pick and choose the government subsidies that you like and don't like.

Government is consensus.  Government is formed by individuals.  Individuals make decisions that affect our so cities collectively.  D.A.T.A want to engage with these individuals.  They nave names, they have families, they have children, they are humans just like the rest of us.  And when you separate the individual from the Government monster that many envision you would be surprised how effective advocacy can be.  This is how we choose to engage.

Revolutionaries die.  And when you take your bullet I'll appreciate your effort on our behalf.  And I'll remember you in 20 or 30 years when we are all living in a practical and efficient digital economy that was made possible by all of our efforts.  However  I'm a pragmatist.  I like practical application to solving a problem.  D.A.T.A.  is our effort.  What is your?

[yayayo]

More regulation? No thanks!


ya.ya.yo!

[BCB]

Actually less regulation.

More clarity and understanding.

It's simple actually.

[J603]

From the Huffington Post article:

that will add 2.5 billion people to the economic system in the next four years.

Today, we're in the midst of another exciting arrival: digital assets to enable financial inclusion for all.

Beyond that lies a future of machine to machine payments past the scope of human involvement, with over 50 billion connected devices by 2020.

Pretty ambitious. Do 2.5 billion people even have Internet access? Is DATA going to pay for those 50 billion devices? Because where are all of these statistics coming from, and what evidence do they have to back them up?

When fully established, this self regulating organization is envisioned to play an important role in creation standards and best practices for digital asset transfers, while providing a reliable solution to regulation that helps the brightest ideas flourish.

Sounds exactly like the federal reserve.


Overall, I'm not very supportive of DATA. It seems like they want some control over bitcoins which is not what should be happening. Centralization is the opposite of what bitcoins should be. Worse, they clearly don't know what they're talking about. 2.5 billion people added in four years? If 2.6 billion people don't even have access to sanitation, how are they expected to have access to bitcoins? (http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats#src1)

This seems like a power grab, backed by false promises.

[Anon136]

Try to live a month or a week or a day of your life without government intervention.

yes please! i would very much like to be able to do this!

its not as if we would just live without hospitals and roads either. we would just have to build our own hospitals and roads.

[BCB]

The Federal Reserve Prints Money.
D.A.T.A. can not mint bitcoins.


According to Internet World Stats:
There were over 2.4 Billion users as of June 30,2012
http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm


2.5 Billion of the world population have no access to formal banking
http://www.mckinsey.com/insights/financial_services/counting_the_worlds_unbanked

Technologies like m-pesa, kipochi and other digital currencies are now quickly changing this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa
http://www.coindesk.com/kipochi-launches-m-pesa-integrated-bitcoin-wallet-in-africa/


You guys should try to read more. The world as we know it is rapidly changing.  You can sit back and watch it change around you.  Or you get be active and try to take part in this important dialogue.  That is the intention of D.A.T.A.

[J603]

The Federal Reserve Prints Money.
D.A.T.A. can not mint bitcoins.

Why not? I can mint bitcoins. And unless I'm misunderstanding this, DATA wants to regulate the bitcoin economy to some extent and push it in the direction that it feels is best.

According to Internet World Stats:
There were over 2.4 Billion users as of June 30,2012
http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm

So even if every single user switched to bitcoins, that 2.5 billion number would still be wrong. Also, how are "Internet user" numbers determined. If they go by unique IP addresses, than that number could be much higher than it should be.

2.5 Billion of the world population have no access to formal banking
http://www.mckinsey.com/insights/financial_services/counting_the_worlds_unbanked

4.6 billion don't have access to Internet, meaning banks are still more accessible.

You guys should try to read more. The world as we know it is rapidly changing.  You can sit back and watch it change around you.  Or you get be active and try to take part in this important dialogue.  That is the intention of D.A.T.A.

Can I actually take part in this dialogue, if DATA were to become a huge influence? Theoretically, I could email the federal reserve with my thoughts, but would they actually be acknowledged?

In summary, Bitcoin does not need regulation or influence, especially in the form of an organization made up of just a few people. The whole point is decentralization. Why does an organization need to start controlling bitcoin? The economy should be allowed to evolve freely, otherwise we might as well go back to fiat.

[BCB]

How you can make the leap from an organization like D.A.T.A. that wants to engage legislators,regulators and user in a dialogue about "best practices" as they pertain to the exchange of digital assets to "D.A.T.A. want to control bitcoin"  is beyond me.

You do understand that like other decentralized, distributed systems like tor or bittorrent no individual or group can "control" bitcoin.

DATA does not have the authority to regulate bitcoin.  But it will suggest best practices for its members as they relate the the laws and regulations of it members governments.  Bitcoin is a decentralize digital currency, you are free to use it how ever you like.  You do not have to be a member and it will have no effect on you.

I do not know if the FED would answer your email?  I have never emailed them myself.

You are currently taking part in this dialogue  about D.A.T.A. now.

That is way posting here.

I'm curious to know what the community thinks.

(I can't respond to your other questions, I'm not a statistician.  I believe the quy who wrote that article is a member of data and some of the info he writes about is not in the data statement.  You should post in the comments of the article.  maybe he'll respond to you.)  

[Equilux]

Some people here stop reading when they see "Bitcoin" and "regulation" in a sentence together, but most of the people that have posted here actually also stop THINKING when they read those words it seems. Wow.

Where Bitcoin interacts with the fiat-world there is going to be friction because of the nature of Bitcoin. Any effort to smooth this interaction should be encouraged, and I'm glad to see the first real attempt at accomplishing this. The sad thing is that so many people think this is "bringing regulation to Bitcoin", when in fact it's doing exactly the opposite.

[BCB]

Equilux,

Yes it is very difficult and frustrating when our government impedes technological innovation with legacy legislation.  So I can certainly understand everyone anger and frustration.

Look that the length Tangible Cryptology has gone to revive his once thriving business.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=224057.msg2848889#msg2848889

It is unfortunate that this is the case and this is a perfect example of penny wise pound foolish regulation driving innovation outside of US border.

Here is more interesting info on the ongoing debate.  Jim Harper's lead essay is an excellent primer.
http://www.cato-unbound.org/issues/july-2013/private-digital-economy

Dan Kaminsky, Jerry Brito, Chuck Moulton and Patrick Murck also weigh in with some terrific insight.

We are all doing what we can to find a way.
 

[marcus_of_augustus]

Government is consensus.  Government is formed by individuals.  Individuals make decisions that affect our so cities collectively.  D.A.T.A want to engage with these individuals.  They nave names, they have families, they have children, they are humans just like the rest of us.  And when you separate the individual from the Government monster that many envision you would be surprised how effective advocacy can be.  This is how we choose to engage.

Revolutionaries die.  And when you take your bullet I'll appreciate your effort on our behalf.  And I'll remember you in 20 or 30 years when we are all living in a practical and efficient digital economy that was made possible by all of our efforts.  However  I'm a pragmatist.  I like practical application to solving a problem.

I'm not sure if you know how delusionally utopian this sounds, but thanks for expounding your ideals for a pragmatic approach to what is objectively a dysfunctional government system. However, I don't suppose you will be advocating those touchy-feeling individuals in the govt. to change their draconian AML/KYC laws that shut poor people out of the banking system then ... not much advantage for lawyers in that is there?

AML/KYC and NSA are different heads of the same velvet-glove facist state beast you seem happy to blindly ignore ...

[QuantPlus]

Some people here stop reading when they see "Bitcoin" and "regulation" in a sentence together, but most of the people that have posted here actually also stop THINKING when they read those words it seems. Wow.

Where Bitcoin interacts with the fiat-world there is going to be friction because of the nature of Bitcoin. Any effort to smooth this interaction should be encouraged, and I'm glad to see the first real attempt at accomplishing this. The sad thing is that so many people think this is "bringing regulation to Bitcoin", when in fact it's doing exactly the opposite.

It's all an elaborate ploy to evade Govt Regulation as long as possible...
And then profit from the best deal available.

How ironic that people who have devoted their lives to circumventing legitimate Govt Authority...
Have now created an SRO with the most Draconian possible name = "Authority"...
In spite of the fact that it has precisely none.

It's all about money, boys and girls...
Billions of $$$ for the lawyers and corporations involved...
People who cannot be satisfies by ANY amount of zeros...
And they sure don't care how they make it... or who they take it away from.

And unfortunately...
This is not about Hollywood movies or music or pr0n = BitTorrent/Tor = tiny potatoes

Its about the absolute Nexus of All Power = Money (and Privacy)...
And this group is selling you out in a bid to become the tech Oligarchs.

[BCB]

QuantPlus,

I certainly share your concerns but I find it quite disingenuous of you to claim to know so much about the intentions an organization that was announced less then as week ago and could not have been an idea in anyone's mind prior to the March 18th FinCEN guidance here in the US.

The stated goal of D.A.T.A is to interact with government NOT evade.

Data has NO authority.  But it's  members seem to have an extensive depth and experience in these emerging technologies.

"tech Oligarchs"  - interesting. You must be Russian.  You did get fucked.  So I can see your concern.  So sorry that was your experience and thus the root of your anger and resentment.

Well this is not Russia.  We'll see how this plays out.

In the meantime you should start  "ASOTO" (Authority Stamp Out Tech Oligarchs).

[aigeezer]

Well this is not Russia.  We'll see how this plays out.

I have tried - really hard - to see the world as you see it. Murck makes it seem very benign, and it's possible you share the same vision.

Nevertheless, there is something very chilling about your avatar and your themes.

[BCB]

Ha!  Never tonight of that. Maybe I should change it.

[HeliKopterBen]

This is not a bad idea guys.  An organization like this is harmless and should be helpful for the most part.  As long as the core bitcoin protocol and currency itself is decentralized and secure then who cares what centralized organization (mtgox), application or technology is built on top of it.  If and when these entities fail, the core system remains intact and strong as ever and other entities will take their place.  I am of the opinion that eventually peer-to-peer based systems will replace certain parts of government anyway probably starting with voting.  Lets face it, the 1950s style voting systems in the US are obsolete at best.  You seriously still have to go to the polls to vote instead of using the internet combined with one of the many or a combination of the many authentication methods available to verify identity and virtually eliminate fraud.  It is only a matter of time. 

/rant

[BCB]

This is not a bad idea guys.  An organization like this is harmless and should be helpful for the most part.  As long as the core bitcoin protocol and currency itself is decentralized and secure then who cares what centralized organization (mtgox), application or technology is built on top of it.  If and when these entities fail, the core system remains intact and strong as ever and other entities will take their place.  I am of the opinion that eventually peer-to-peer based systems will replace certain parts of government anyway probably starting with voting.  Lets face it, the 1950s style voting systems in the US are obsolete at best.  You seriously still have to go to the polls to vote instead of using the internet combined with one of the many or a combination of the many authentication methods available to verify identity and virtually eliminate fraud.  It is only a matter of time. 

/rant

+1

[stash]

Why no one from gox being on Founding Members list, If this going succeed we will see coinsetter will take over the exchange market.

[Realpra]

F*** regulation.

Governments are the ones that need to be regulated and Bitcoin is here to do it.


Here is what DATA really is: "Hey guys those clowns over at the Bitcoin Foundation made a lot of money from authority loving suckers, lets do the same!"

[rebuilder]

Given D.A.T.A has no authority, why is it called an authority? Seems like a pretty sinister name for something intended to be benign.

[bitfromit]

Government is consensus.  Government is formed by individuals.  Individuals make decisions that affect our so cities collectively.  D.A.T.A want to engage with these individuals.  They nave names, they have families, they have children, they are humans just like the rest of us.  And when you separate the individual from the Government monster that many envision you would be surprised how effective advocacy can be.  This is how we choose to engage.

Revolutionaries die.  And when you take your bullet I'll appreciate your effort on our behalf.  And I'll remember you in 20 or 30 years when we are all living in a practical and efficient digital economy that was made possible by all of our efforts.  However  I'm a pragmatist.  I like practical application to solving a problem.

I'm not sure if you know how delusionally utopian this sounds, but thanks for expounding your ideals for a pragmatic approach to what is objectively a dysfunctional government system. However, I don't suppose you will be advocating those touchy-feeling individuals in the govt. to change their draconian AML/KYC laws that shut poor people out of the banking system then ... not much advantage for lawyers in that is there?

AML/KYC and NSA are different heads of the same velvet-glove facist state beast you seem happy to blindly ignore ...

Yes Marcus, the "Government is consensus" thing sounds so nice and comforting to some.

A short well explained video on what it really is : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGIgOIFdnMQ ("Statism is Dead")

[J603]

Given D.A.T.A has no authority, why is it called an authority? Seems like a pretty sinister name for something intended to be benign.

Because they want to be an authority.

Technically, it can't have total authority. Bitcoins are open source and decentralized, and shouldn't be able to be controlled by anyone. However, realistically an organization which has influence over the exchanges and regulates transactions would have some power.

It seems similar to governments in place now. Technically, they can't force us to do anything. But realistically, to go against them means imprisonment or death.

Obviously DATA isn't going to kill anyone, but going against their restrictions might make it more expensive and hard for exchanges/transactors that don't go along with it to run.

[BCB]

Data is an authority in that many of its member have deep knowledge of the technology and the business experience within the digital currency space.  This is something that government regulators do NOT have.  DATA can use its expertise in this area to educate legislators and regulators so they don't continue to put out over reaching guidance that kills this technology in its infancy just because they don't understand it.

I think it is important to understand that DATA was formed by those businesses mentioned in the release.  The stated goal is to operate their businesses legally within their jurisdiction and to assist with creating "best practices" for virtual currency business as their operation relates or is required by government laws and regulation with in their respective jurisdictions.

If you are not a member of DATA you should have no issue.  If you do not agree with its mission then you don't have to join.  

Bitcoin is a protocol, the satoshi client is a peice of software that anyone with an internet connection can down load and connect to the new virtual economy.  You don't need DATA or the Bitcoin Foundation or Bitcoin Talk to do this.  

[BCB]

This thread is an attempt to be a civil public discussion.  This is a public forum and you are certainly welcome to participate but I don't think childish personal attacks really help support your position.

Thanks.

[J603]

I still don't understand the purpose of DATA.

Is it to influence good business practices?
    -What does this mean? No organization should have any power over bitcoins, whether it's just "influence" or outright control.

Is it to talk to legislators?

And finally, why do we need it? Why do legislators have to be talked to in the first place? Any "law" they make is a joke, since they can't actually regulate bitcoins.

Is there a mission statement? I haven't checked the DATA site in weeks, but when I did quite frankly it was pointless...

[BCB]

I still don't understand the purpose of DATA

Is it to influence good business practices?
    -What does this mean? No organization should have any power over bitcoins, whether it's just "influence" or outright control.

From the DATA website: This open project is developing best practices and standards for management of digital asset transfers worldwide.  

Is it to talk to legislators?

Yes.

And finally, why do we need it? Why do legislators have to be talked to in the first place? Any "law" they make is a joke, since they can't actually regulate bitcoins.

That you your opinion an you are welcome to it.

However groups like
http://www.nbpca.com/
http://www.finra.org/
and many other have helped shape the conversation and regularly engage with regulations and legislators it their respective fields

Is there a mission statement? I haven't checked the DATA site in weeks, but when I did quite frankly it was pointless...

DATA does not have a complete mission statement yes DATA is only a committee to explore the creation of a Self Regulation Committee called D.A.T.A.

However the intentions of the organization are laid out in the press release.

the Committee for the Establishment of the Digital Asset Transfer Authority will:

1. Develop best practice anti-money laundering and sanctions compliance standards for emerging payments and virtual currency firms;

2.  ... serve as a source of business and technical standards for the prudent and responsible conduct of payment transactions;

3. Engage with member firms, merchants and customers, regulators, law enforcement and legislators to identify and address emergent public policy concerns and risks affecting our industry; and

4. Work to establish the Digital Asset Transfer Authority (“DATA”), ideally as a formal self-regulatory organization, to develop, publish and ensure member compliance with standards. We envision that DATA, when fully established, will:

a. Have a decision-making board, a majority of whose members will be independent of the industry, advised but not bound by advisory committees of technical experts and members;

b. Develop and administer appropriate oversight processes and accountabilities for members who do not meet DATA’s business and technical standards; and

c. Approve new or modified member standards as the marketplace, technology, and regulatory expectations evolve.


You don't have to be a member of D.A.T.A. but its members are indicating they would uphold these initial principles once a formal organization is in place.

[LostDutchman]

Some people here stop reading when they see "Bitcoin" and "regulation" in a sentence together, but most of the people that have posted here actually also stop THINKING when they read those words it seems. Wow.

Where Bitcoin interacts with the fiat-world there is going to be friction because of the nature of Bitcoin. Any effort to smooth this interaction should be encouraged, and I'm glad to see the first real attempt at accomplishing this. The sad thing is that so many people think this is "bringing regulation to Bitcoin", when in fact it's doing exactly the opposite.

It's all an elaborate ploy to evade Govt Regulation as long as possible...
And then profit from the best deal available.

How ironic that people who have devoted their lives to circumventing legitimate Govt Authority...
Have now created an SRO with the most Draconian possible name = "Authority"...
In spite of the fact that it has precisely none.

It's all about money, boys and girls...
Billions of $$$ for the lawyers and corporations involved...
People who cannot be satisfies by ANY amount of zeros...
And they sure don't care how they make it... or who they take it away from.

And unfortunately...
This is not about Hollywood movies or music or pr0n = BitTorrent/Tor = tiny potatoes

Its about the absolute Nexus of All Power = Money (and Privacy)...
And this group is selling you out in a bid to become the tech Oligarchs.

What you wrote!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[LostDutchman]

Given D.A.T.A has no authority, why is it called an authority? Seems like a pretty sinister name for something intended to be benign.

National Socialist German Worker's Party sounded pretty benign at the start......................

My $.02.

[J603]

From the DATA website: This open project is developing best practices and standards for management of digital asset transfers worldwide.

But what does that mean? What is the "best" practice? The "best" standard? Best is a very subjective term.

That you your opinion an you are welcome to it.

Explain to me how legislators will control BTC. They can't stop SR, The Armory (and similar sites), money laundering, or any of the illegal activities that go along with it. How will they stop legal ones?

1. Develop best practice anti-money laundering and sanctions compliance standards for emerging payments and virtual currency firms;

People are free to do what they want with their money. Once bitcoin takes off as an actual currency there won't be laundering money through bitcoins because bitcoins will be the money.

2.  serve as a source of business and technical standards for the prudent and responsible conduct of payment transactions;

Who defines these "standards"? Why are standards needed? Aren't bitcoins supposed to be regulated by the community?

3. Engage with member firms, merchants and customers, regulators, law enforcement and legislators to identify and address emergent public policy concerns and risks affecting our industry; and

Since when is bitcoin an industry? It's supposed to be a currency. You don't talk about the booming "pound" industry or the "USD" industry. And why would you comply with the government? They are not friends of bitcoin.

a. Have a decision-making board, a majority of whose members will be independent of the industry, advised but not bound by advisory committees of technical experts and members;

Why is bitcoin an industry?

b. Develop and administer appropriate oversight processes and accountabilities for members who do not meet DATA’s business and technical standards; and

c. Approve new or modified member standards as the marketplace, technology, and regulatory expectations evolve.

You don't have to be a member of D.A.T.A. but its members are indicating they would uphold these initial principles once a formal organization is in place.

I don't have to be a member... but I'm sure at some point it would become impractical to not be a member if you are a large exchange or business. If there are "standards" for members then there is some form of regulation.

These "standards" worry me. You keep saying "you don't have to join DATA" yet you want it to be popular, and you're going to be enforcing standards upon all of your members.

Which is it? Useful "suggestions" or actual, member-compliant standards that must be followed?

If bitcoin gets regulated, it's basically just fiat, rendering it pointless.

[BCB]

In My opinion "Best Practices" ==  "safe for consumers" and operating "within the law"

I DO NOT promote bitcoin reversibility or regulating bitcoin the protocol.

Legislators can not control bitcoin the protocol. But they can and have made it very difficult for bitcoin businesses, exchanges and miners to operate legally in the United States.

Bitcoin may become "currency" and that would be great.  Right now there are not enough places to purchases good and services with bitcoin so it make exchanges and work arounds like "GYFT" necessary.  It is at these choke points that government has and will continue to impose restrictions if the existing bitcoin businesses do not engage them.

The Bitcoin foundation has already done this on behalf of all bitcoiner with its answer to the cease and desist from California and it's comments to FinCEN and D.A.T.A will also do this on behalf of its members.

"Standards" will be defined by the members of D.A.T.A and they are currently being formulated.

"Bitcoin Industry" =  Miners, Mining equipment manufactures, exchanges, payment processors, merchants, users.  Everyone in the bitcoin ecosystem could be considered part of the bitcoin industry.  However you have to remember that the bitcoin is a peer to peer decentralized network.  You need no intermediary.  You don't have to buy or sell coins on Gox.  You can trade directly with anyone any where.  You can use localbitcoins.com etc.

I do not see D.A.T.A. as a popularity contest.  Not sure where you got that.  The list of signatory members have basically said the they want to create an organization to create best practices for its members.  And at the very least I believe its member would like to operate their businesses legally in there jurisdictions and if the law is not clear (as is the case in the US) the organization wants to engage legislators and regulators to help them better understand the protocol and its many benefits and ask for better clarity of the regulation or regulation better suited to virtual currency and emerging payments.  

This effort may have no effect but right now it is clear that governments are providing guidance that in my opinion says "We don't understand this, we FEAR the implications, so we are going to outlaw it or severely restrict it."  And with out "industry" input governments may continue to unfavorably regulate our industry.

DATA is one groups effort to collectively engage in that process.

[J603]

Big government types who are only here to help you out!

"help yout out"; right.

HELP YOU RIGHT OUT OF BUSINESS!

Halfwits!

Why did you quote me, halfwit? Nothing you said was relevant to what I said.

[BCB]

Troll... it happens around here...

[LostDutchman]

Big government types who are only here to help you out!

"help yout out"; right.

HELP YOU RIGHT OUT OF BUSINESS!

Halfwits!

Why did you quote me, halfwit? Nothing you said was relevant to what I said.

Sorry, I was not callng YOU a halfwit and used the quote feature only to attempt to maintain continuity of the thread.  As you ca see, I deleted the post but stand by my assertion that those who attempt to establish any kind of organised authority over cryptocurrency are defeating one of the very foundations of that currency as authority means control.

Mea Culpa!

I should have been more clear first time 'round!

[BCB]

LostDutchman,

Thank you for updating your post.

No one is trying create "an Authority OVER cryptocurrency".  If you understood the technology of the decentralized ledger of bitcoin you would realize that is not possible.  Bitcoin is disintermediation on steroids.

DATA is merely a group of bitcoin businesses who are saying that its members are planning to operate their businesses accourding to the laws of their countries as they understand them  and to ask for clarity when those laws and regulation are not clear.  

Pretty simple.

Also if you could do some research you can see that regulation is doing little to slow the bitcoin economy:

According to Jeff Garzik's http://bitcoinwatch.com/

In the last 24 hours there have been:
55,879 Transactions (2328.29 per hour!)
749,510.38 BTC SENT (31,229.60 BTC per hour)

That is $76,225,205.65 USD at current Mt Gox USD price.

The bitcoin money supply is also currently larger then the GDP of 25 of the worlds countries.


Seychelles   1,031   2012 est.
Solomon Islands   1,011   2012 est.
Gambia, The   918   2012 est.
Guinea-Bissau   870   2012 est.
Sint Maarten   794.7   2008
Grenada   790   2012 est.
Vanuatu   783   2012 est.
Saint Kitts and Nevis   734   2012 est.
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines   712   2012 est.
Northern Mariana Islands   733   2010
Samoa   683   2012 est.
Comoros   600   2012 est.
Dominica   497   2012 est.
Tonga   476   2012 est.
American Samoa   462.2   2005
São Tomé and Príncipe   264   2012 est.
Micronesia, Federated States of   238.1   2008
Cook Islands   183.2   2005 est.
Anguilla   175.4   2009 est.
Kiribati   173   2012 est.
Falkland Islands   164.5   2007 est.
Palau   164   2008
Marshall Islands   161.7   2008 est.
Tuvalu   37   2012 est.
Niue   10.01   2003




Not bad for a 4 year old economy.

[prophetx]

There are laws and regulations in each of our contrives that exist now with relation to virtual currencies regardless of what some of the geniuses on this forum thinks and there are SERIOUS consequences for not obeying these laws EVEN IF YOU ARE IGNORANT OF THEM.

If only Wall St. and Washington were more respectful of the laws, your vociferous endorsements of a corrupt system might ring less hollow. In other news, the NSA is unconstitutionally collecting all of your on-line data. Maybe they need "educating" also? You'd think lawyers would have plenty to keep themselves busy besides virtual currencies in MMPOGs .... basically, get a life.

Totally agree

What is happening as we sit here in the US govt should be brought to light, then bring all of these rogue govt personnel into court for prosecution for failing to uphold their oaths to uphold the US constitution

Then throw them all into Leavenworth

[LostDutchman]

I completely understand your position and thank you for understanding mine.

Not possible for governments to control crypto?

Wanna bet?

How about the USA govt or any govt anyplace on the planet decides that since crypto cannot be controlled, crypto simply gets shut down?

The USA feds have a strong history of domain seizure and any or all of the exchanges and the sites of the cryptocurrencies themselves could be shout down literally by the push of a button and the right software.  They have done it already (See Megaupload for example) and as soon as they figure out that there is no real way to tax crypto, they will hammer away at it until there is.

The NSA could use Narus software to track down every miner on the planet if they haven't already.

Crypto was designed and intended to be an essentially underground economic system and should remain that way.

My $.02.

[BCB]

There are laws and regulations in each of our contrives that exist now with relation to virtual currencies regardless of what some of the geniuses on this forum thinks and there are SERIOUS consequences for not obeying these laws EVEN IF YOU ARE IGNORANT OF THEM.

If only Wall St. and Washington were more respectful of the laws, your vociferous endorsements of a corrupt system might ring less hollow. In other news, the NSA is unconstitutionally collecting all of your on-line data. Maybe they need "educating" also? You'd think lawyers would have plenty to keep themselves busy besides virtual currencies in MMPOGs .... basically, get a life.

Totally agree

What is happening as we sit here in the US govt should be brought to light, then bring all of these rogue govt personnel into court for prosecution for failing to uphold their oaths to uphold the US constitution

Then throw them all into Leavenworth

That's not happening any time soon.

If it is any consolation, in the US some of the culprits in the financial crisis are finally being prosecuted.

SAC hedgfund and a number of its traders have been indited:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505266_162-57597147/new-sheriff-of-wall-street-preet-bharara-talks-sac-capital-insider-trading/

Justice Dept. Sues Bank of America Over Mortgage Securities
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/08/06/justice-sues-bank-of-america-over-mortgage-securities/?ref=litigation

Goldman Sachs and Fabrice Tourre charged with Securites Fraud
http://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2010/comp-pr2010-59.pdf

This is already more then happen in the HSBC money laundering case.

HSBC settles Money Laundering case for 1.9B - No criminal prosecution.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-02/hsbc-judge-approves-1-9b-drug-money-laundering-accord.html

[BCB]

I completely understand your position and thank you for understanding mine.

Not possible for governments to control crypto?

Wanna bet?

How about the USA govt or any govt anyplace on the planet decides that since crypto cannot be controlled, crypto simply gets shut down?

The USA feds have a strong history of domain seizure and any or all of the exchanges and the sites of the cryptocurrencies themselves could be shout down literally by the push of a button and the right software.  They have done it already (See Megaupload for example) and as soon as they figure out that there is no real way to tax crypto, they will hammer away at it until there is.

The NSA could use Narus software to track down every miner on the planet if they haven't already.

Crypto was designed and intended to be an essentially underground economic system and should remain that way.

My $.02.

Anything is possible.  But I don't this this statement is accurate.
"Crypto was designed and intended to be an essentially underground economic system"

[J603]

I completely understand your position and thank you for understanding mine.

Not possible for governments to control crypto?

Wanna bet?

How about the USA govt or any govt anyplace on the planet decides that since crypto cannot be controlled, crypto simply gets shut down?

The USA feds have a strong history of domain seizure and any or all of the exchanges and the sites of the cryptocurrencies themselves could be shout down literally by the push of a button and the right software.  They have done it already (See Megaupload for example) and as soon as they figure out that there is no real way to tax crypto, they will hammer away at it until there is.

The NSA could use Narus software to track down every miner on the planet if they haven't already.

Crypto was designed and intended to be an essentially underground economic system and should remain that way.

My $.02.

Anything is possible.  But I don't this this statement is accurate.
"Crypto was designed and intended to be an essentially underground economic system"

This is something I agree with. Bitcoin is supposed to be the economic system some day.

[BCB]

file sharing has not ended movie rentals

iTunes has not ended CD sales

email has not ended the post office.

YET.

So don't expect digital currency to replace fiat anytime soon

but it is a pretty slick alternative and the more people learn about it the quicker the economy will grow.

Look for extensive use first in
-international remittance
-on line payments

much work has to be done on the UI and the payments protocol.

I'm very much looking forward to bitcoin v. 0.8.9 if they can implement BIP 70

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0070

[J603]

file sharing has not ended movie rentals

iTunes has not ended CD sales

email has not ended the post office.

True. But currency is very different from those examples. It is the most important commodity. There won't be two somewhat equally used forms of currency around, like with CDs and iTunes. There will either be one or the other.

And email won't end the post office. You can't email a package. 

[LostDutchman]

I think many have forgotten:

"Bitcoin uses peer-to-peer technology to operate with no central authority or banks; managing transactions and the issuing of bitcoins is carried out collectively by the network. Bitcoin is open-source; its design is public, nobody owns or controls Bitcoin and everyone can take part. Through many of its unique properties, Bitcoin allows exciting uses that could not be covered by any previous payment system."

http://bitcoin.org/en/

Stop opening the doors for government control!

My $.02!

[BCB]

file sharing has not ended movie rentals

iTunes has not ended CD sales

email has not ended the post office.

True. But currency is very different from those examples. It is the most important commodity. There won't be two somewhat equally used forms of currency around, like with CDs and iTunes. There will either be one or the other.

And email won't end the post office. You can't email a package. 

But you can send VIA UPS or FEX EX both successful private forms of package delivery.

Bitcoin too is a private currency.  It is very possible that there emerges bot a public and private payment systems.

[BCB]

I think many have forgotten:

"Bitcoin uses peer-to-peer technology to operate with no central authority or banks; managing transactions and the issuing of bitcoins is carried out collectively by the network. Bitcoin is open-source; its design is public, nobody owns or controls Bitcoin and everyone can take part. Through many of its unique properties, Bitcoin allows exciting uses that could not be covered by any previous payment system."

http://bitcoin.org/en/

Stop opening the doors for government control!

My $.02!

LostDutchMan what you fail to understand is that NO ONE  opened doors to government control.  Laws currently exist with regards to the transmission and use of  currency.  FinCEN only clarified that with their March 18 Guidance. 

Now you may not think that is fair, or it may not be right, but you can not deny that it exists. 

And that guidance was handed down without any effort by DATA or the Bitcoin Foundation or anyone else.

What DATA is trying to do is prevent more doors from being closed.

I suggest you research the pre-paid card industry.  They faced similar regulation and now you can find rack of them hanging in every Walmart, K-Mart, Wallgreens, CVS etc.   And if that industry did not interact with the government and regulators through the Network Branded Prepaid Card Association (http://www.nbpca.com/) that would currently not currently be the case.

[LostDutchman]

file sharing has not ended movie rentals

iTunes has not ended CD sales

email has not ended the post office.

True. But currency is very different from those examples. It is the most important commodity. There won't be two somewhat equally used forms of currency around, like with CDs and iTunes. There will either be one or the other.

And email won't end the post office. You can't email a package. 

But you can send VIA UPS or FEX EX both successful private forms of package delivery.

Bitcoin too is a private currency.  It is very possible that there emerges bot a public and private payment systems.

UPS and FedEx private?

Think so?

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/11/16/183045/99/crimenews/DEA-vs-Fedex-and-UPS-Why-a-Criminal-Probe-

[BCB]

file sharing has not ended movie rentals

iTunes has not ended CD sales

email has not ended the post office.

True. But currency is very different from those examples. It is the most important commodity. There won't be two somewhat equally used forms of currency around, like with CDs and iTunes. There will either be one or the other.

And email won't end the post office. You can't email a package.  

But you can send VIA UPS or FEX EX both successful private forms of package delivery.

Bitcoin too is a private currency.  It is very possible that there emerges bot a public and private payment systems.

UPS and FedEx private?

Think so?

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/11/16/183045/99/crimenews/DEA-vs-Fedex-and-UPS-Why-a-Criminal-Probe-

yes Private.  (well they may be publicly traded)
But the point being is that they are successful in that they operate within the boundaries of law.  Even if that law requires them to co-operate with government investigations.

Sorry.  This is unfortunately the world we live in. You certainly don't have to participate. Any many choose not to.

Check out: http://agorism.info/

[LostDutchman]

file sharing has not ended movie rentals

iTunes has not ended CD sales

email has not ended the post office.

True. But currency is very different from those examples. It is the most important commodity. There won't be two somewhat equally used forms of currency around, like with CDs and iTunes. There will either be one or the other.

And email won't end the post office. You can't email a package.  

But you can send VIA UPS or FEX EX both successful private forms of package delivery.

Bitcoin too is a private currency.  It is very possible that there emerges bot a public and private payment systems.

UPS and FedEx private?

Think so?

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/11/16/183045/99/crimenews/DEA-vs-Fedex-and-UPS-Why-a-Criminal-Probe-

yes Private.  (well they may be publicly traded)
But the point being is that they are successful in that they operate within the boundaries of law.  Even if that law requires them to co-operate with government investigations.

Sorry.  This is unfortunately the world we live in. You certainly don't have to participate. Any many choose not to.

Check out: http://agorism.info/

Hey, I LIKE that site!

Thanks!

[BCB]

You're welcome!

As far as I know this is still a free country and there are plenty of people exercising their civil liberties with out too much government intervention.  

Here are two more sites you should know about:

http://freestateproject.org/

http://porcfest.com/

And here is a great libertarian radio station.

http://www.freetalklive.com/

[LostDutchman]

You're welcome!

As far as I know this is still a free country and there are plenty of people exercising their civil liberties with out too much government intervention.  

Here are two more sites you should know about:

http://freestateproject.org/

http://porcfest.com/

And here is a great libertarian radio station.

http://www.freetalklive.com/

Thanks again!