How to Explode the Price of Bitcoin OVERNIGHT!

[Coinseeker]

I think I'll stick with Ripple as far as a payment network goes.  As for my go to currency, I'll stick with USD.  Accepted everywhere...no questions asked.   That said, as long as I can make USD, buying and selling BTC, I'm cool with it. 

[derpinheimer]

Those bitcoins are going to be worth so much when the power goes out 

Ill never understand why people think a dollar collapse -> bitcoins more valuable.

[Jozzaboy]

Those bitcoins are going to be worth so much when the power goes out 

Ill never understand why people think a dollar collapse -> bitcoins more valuable.

Good luck withdrawing your dollars from the ATM with no power

[vokain]

When the dollar collapses, the price of bitcoin will explode overnight

What if I told you: All banks are printing money (= QE) so bitcoin will go up but all the other currencies will do so?

When the dollar collapses, the price of bitcoin will explode overnight

What if I told you: All banks are printing money (= QE) so bitcoin will go up but all the other currencies will do so?

wait so what does QE do, inject money into banks? Does it have to be paid back? I was under the impression that banks refused to lend out their QE money because of the lack of credit-worthy debtors. Apparently the problem has been a ton of deflation of bad debt, ie why PMs like gold and silver have gone down as assets get eaten up by the debt blackhole. So have we been trying to counter that with money supply inflation?

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/06/81-5-of-money-created-through-quantitative-easing-is-sitting-there-gathering-dust-instead-of-helping-the-economy.html

[yayayo]

Those bitcoins are going to be worth so much when the power goes out 

Ill never understand why people think a dollar collapse -> bitcoins more valuable.

Worldwide power outage = problem for worldwide economy.
Bitcoin transactions can continue after power is back on. Existing coins are safe.

Dollar collapse -> capital fleeing into non-governmental assets -> Bitcoin.


ya.ya.yo!

[Jozzaboy]

Those bitcoins are going to be worth so much when the power goes out 

Ill never understand why people think a dollar collapse -> bitcoins more valuable.

Good luck withdrawing your dollars from the ATM with no power

And good luck getting gold across the border once capital controls are imposed.

I'll just sail my boat which happens to be made of solid gold over to the Bahamas. Probably give it a lick of paint first.

[vokain]

"Officer, it's just gold gilded, i promise"

[semaforo]

I think I'll stick with Ripple as far as a payment network goes.  As for my go to currency, I'll stick with USD.  Accepted everywhere...no questions asked.   That said, as long as I can make USD, buying and selling BTC, I'm cool with it.  

     If the total value of the United States as a country with all the social and cultural capital and assets is X, then the value of the dollar is a representation of this, or X=Y. If X is changing at a rate of A, then the money supply can increase or decrease at a rate of A too and the value of the dollar will stay steady. If the X is changing at a rate of A and Y is changing a rate of B, then, if A>B the purchasing power of the dollar will go up. If A<B, then the purchasing power will go down.

       Right now, Y is increasing at an absolutely unprecedented rate and this is diluting the value of the dollar in favor of the recipients of the newly issued dollars. In this case, those recipients are banks, particularly those holding mortgages.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/06/81-5-of-money-created-through-quantitative-easing-is-sitting-there-gathering-dust-instead-of-helping-the-economy.html  (EDIT: wow, vokain posted a link to the same article while I was writing this)

    This makes the balance sheets of banks look a lot better and allows them to continue lending (at a profit, with interest) which spurs growth in construction, small businesses, consumer goods purchases (credit cards). A lot of people, myself included, have wondered how the fed can create so much new money without inflation skyrocketing- and the answer is that most of the money is being hoarded. The Chinese have about 3 trillion dollars in dollar denominated bonds and foreign currency reserves, and US banks have about 1.8 trillion sitting around. If either start to dump their dollars, the market will follow suit and the dollar will crash.

    This is basically a financial cold war- if the Chinese start to dump dollars US banks can immediately respond by unleashing a huge pile of dollars too, devaluing the dollar so China gets stuck with a big pile of paper. Notice that the US banks reserves are less than China's- that means that if China tries to dump that the US stands to lose much less- not to mention that in the case of hyperinflation the 17 trillion in US debt will suddenly become much less valuable in real terms, although since hyperinflation will hit the poor hard it would require martial law and a rationing system to allocate basic consumer goods.  

     The piles of dollars sitting around are basically potential inflation that has not been unleashed. Check it out- if US banks have 10% of the dollars in the world, and the fed increases the money supply by 20% and gives all of the dollars to the banks, the banks went from having 10% of all the dollars to having 25% of all dollars. Or concretely- if there are 100 trillion dollars on paper worldwide, and banks have 10 trillion of them, and then the fed prints 20 trillion new dollars and gives them all to the banks, the banks now have 30 trillion dollars of a total of 120 trillion dollars "existing." 30 is 25% of 120. If 100 trillion dollars are worth 1 trillion bushels of soya(or insert non-fiat commodity here), or the combined buying power of all dollars in existence is 1 trillion bushels of soya, assume that the number 20 in this example represents the amount by which the growth in the money supply EXCEEDS the growth in underlying value.
     Banks in the US just went from having the power to buy 100 billion bushels of soya to having the power to buy 250 billion bushels of soya- and all they did was make a ton of non-performing loans!

       These numbers are just meant to simplify what I'm trying to say, which is that China has a huge pile of dollars they have made exporting to the US, and the US is using inflation and the threat of inflation to steal that money back. How long do you think China is going to put up with this? They can't do much about it, but they have officially sanctioned bitcoin use in China- and it's crazy that they would promote such an unregulated technology when they are known for being the arch-financial regulators- they are doing so because they know that the more bitcoin is used the more it will erode the dollar. They are also deregulating the yuan so that yuan will start to migrate overseas and they can sell exports directly for yuan rather than having to continue to accept dollars that are having their value quietly robbed by US private banks. They are also buying Iranian crude oil and paying with subway cars since sanctions hinder dollar denominated transactions.

      If China gets too uppity, the US has been eyeballing Iran for a while, and Syrian escalation with Iran providing supplies to the side that the US is increasing pressure against means possible pretext for involvement. For example, if the US instates a no-fly zone in Syria a la Libya, Iranian anti-aircraft weapons in the hands of Syrian forces could end up hitting US fighters. This would necessitate bombing supply convoys coming from Iran towards Syria, and eventually provide an excuse for the US to finally try to take over Iran or send piles of those freshly minted dollars to factions inside Iran that will do what the CIA tells them too as long as dollars keep flowing, and force China to keep paying for the oil they need to keep their economy running in dollars, thereby maintaining demand for the dollar and allowing the US to continue robbing the value of China's hard earned piles of dollars.

      So really holding dollars is basically akin to hot potato or musical chairs, except that there's a war when the music stops. If you are speculating by buying high and selling low, you are basically trying to beat the market which means take the money from less adept traders. This is not a win-win. There are plenty of ways to make money in win-win circumstances. You are feeding off of other people's losses, and guess what? What goes around comes around. Quantitative easing is basically the biggest rip off the world has ever seen, and everyone holding dollars stands to lose from it- except the people receiving the newly minted dollars.

        That happens to include me, since I am a home owner in the US and QE is what enables banks to renegotiate loans without collapsing. That means the possibility to renegotiate mortgage payments to lower rent and increase profits of property owners, which translates to more cash in circulation and increased consumer spending, which leads (partly) to the gains we are seeing in Wall Street right now. (EDIT: Oh yeah, and I think it also has something to do with the good employment numbers in the US, whereas ECB QE is dwarfed by US QE and the Eurozone has major unemployment problems) Money represents work, and the US is getting more money without really doing any more work- and who is paying for this increased value? Where do people work 16 hours a day, 6 days a week? I smell a slave rebellion in the works.

          Basically a total overhaul of society is necessary and it means absolute political death for whoever is in power when it happens. This will mean that !surprise! Western liberal democracy will meet the same fate that every democracy in history has met- a slide to totalitarianism. So yeah... if you want to support this scenario, go ahead and keep using dollars. You know that scene in Braveheart where William Wallace is giving the speech the Scottish army- well you could substitute the words "lives" for dollars and "freedom" for bitcoin.

   "They can take our dollars, but they cannot take our BITCOOOIIINNNN!!!"
    

[Coinseeker]

   ...snip...
    

TL;DR

I'm here to make money, not change the world.

[Hfleer]

Think some people with a lot of BTC sell regularly for a little bit of spending money, same thing with those earning in BTC.

[wopwop]

As long as new people with new money come in we're good

[semaforo]

   ...snip...
    

TL;DR

I'm here to make money, not change the world.

   And I'm here to point out that you stand to make a lot more money by first understanding the revolutionary potential of bitcoin, and second helping the bitcoin economy to grow by taking the time to support the growth of bitcoin infrastructure by using it, even if it is slightly less convenient than the old way.

   Why do you want money? Presumably to be happy. If you profit from other peoples losses, you are going to make yourself happy from other people's unhappiness. You reap what you sow. We are all connected and if you make the world a worse place, you are going to be less happy in the end. It's a two steps forward three steps back kind of deal.

       The bigger the bitcoin economy gets, the more money you are going to make. The less speculation and the more win-win business transactions there are, the more new money will come into bitcoin, and the more money you will make. So if you want to make money make the world a better place. With bitcoin adoption international trade barriers will decrease and there will be more wealth in general because unharnessed productivity of workers will be tapped into.

    Dude, are you going to make more money cutting down an apple orchard and selling the wood, or harvesting apples every year and selling them?



   

[RodeoX]

The price of a bitcoin is always correct, no matter what you or I would like it to be. That is how markets work.

[lucas.sev]

   Why do you want money? Presumably to be happy. If you profit from other peoples losses, you are going to make yourself happy from other people's unhappiness. You reap what you sow.

People on this forum want to see countries go bankrupt because they think it will trigger another bubble and you pull this argument....

[Coinseeker]

   And I'm here to point out that you stand to make a lot more money by first understanding the revolutionary potential of bitcoin, and second helping the bitcoin economy to grow by taking the time to support the growth of bitcoin infrastructure by using it, even if it is slightly less convenient than the old way.

   Why do you want money? Presumably to be happy. If you profit from other peoples losses, you are going to make yourself happy from other people's unhappiness. You reap what you sow. We are all connected and if you make the world a worse place, you are going to be less happy in the end. It's a two steps forward three steps back kind of deal.

       The bigger the bitcoin economy gets, the more money you are going to make. The less speculation and the more win-win business transactions there are, the more new money will come into bitcoin, and the more money you will make. So if you want to make money make the world a better place. With bitcoin adoption international trade barriers will decrease and there will be more wealth in general because unharnessed productivity of workers will be tapped into.

    Dude, are you going to make more money cutting down an apple orchard and selling the wood, or harvesting apples every year and selling them?

This is why I support Ripple and not a single currency.  Ripple will give Bitcoin and any other ecurrency the mass adoption avenues, they simply will never achieve on their own.  Bitcoin is just one of many world currencies. (and I'm being nice calling it a currency) So, the greater benefit to mankind is not the delusional belief that the world will accept one currency, but the freedom to use any currency to actually buy goods and services, regardless what currencies those merchants choose to accept.

You see the future is not in which currency people will choose to use, but rather in the payment network that will make commerce possible for the masses.  If you love Bitcoin, support it, promote it, use it.  But don't be blinded by ideology into thinking that the world will ever accept one currency.  It won't and certainly not Bitcoin with all its limitations.  Truthfully, I'm indifferent to currencies.  I only have favoritism to the USD because I'm American and that's what we use to pay for our daily necessities.  Rent, food, water, electricity, healthcare, taxes, etc.  

But as the future draws near, payment networks, like Ripple, that allow me to pay in ANY currency and you receive that payment in ANY currency, are far more valuable and "world changing" than any single crypto currency.  As we all see now, crypto currencies are a dime a dozen.  Bitcoin just happens to be the most popular brand at the moment.  As with any "brand", that may not be true tomorrow but the payment networks that cater to all currencies, will endure.

[semaforo]

   Why do you want money? Presumably to be happy. If you profit from other peoples losses, you are going to make yourself happy from other people's unhappiness. You reap what you sow.

People on this forum want to see countries go bankrupt because they think it will trigger another bubble and you pull this argument....

  The nation state is based on the same principle as speculation and is ultimately inefficient. Wealth would increase and productivity would improve if there were no capital controls and money, labor, goods, and services could move freely from anywhere to anywhere on the planet.

  A concrete example- if the current total incomes of everyone in the world were evenly dispersed it would result in salaries of somewhere in the range of 600 to 800 dollars a month.

   People in the US think "No way! Keep border controls in effect because if the market got to decide the market price of labor here in the US would go down and it would go up in Mexico! More money for us, less money for them!"

   This is typical win-lose reasoning. What people don't understand is that eliminating capital controls and trade barriers increases productivity and efficiency through comparative advantage, so the abolition of the nation-state as an organizing institution would most likely result in an expansion of the global economy more than sufficient to compensate losses due to inter-regional evening in labor and commodity prices.

   So we could actually all end up making more money by having a worldwide free trade agreement that includes protecting the right of people to travel from anywhere to anywhere on the planet and work wherever they want without greasing the palms of bureaucrats.

    National currencies are a big part of nationalism and nationalism is a big part of the us-them mentality that is keeping us from utilizing our resources efficiently to optimize wealth creation. The more countries that go bankrupt, the more it will become clear that this model does not work, and the more people will come to bitcoin, making those of us with bitcoin holdings very rich and making everyone in the world richer as the efficiency gains of bitcoin are allowed to kick in. This has to allow for an adjustment period where people change their consumption habits, and the current crisis management measures are basically trying to postpone these adjustments because of their political consequences. Eventually though, the economy is going to have to go cold turkey and it's going to hurt. It might very well hurt less for bitcoin users.
  
   Like forest fires, they have to happen for the forest to be healthy, but people try to fight them because they don't want to lose their houses, but this just allows time for more dry wood to pile up making the inevitable fire more intense when it finally does come. Bitcoin is digital fire and guess what dollars are? Paper.

    

[semaforo]

This is why I support Ripple and not a single currency.  Ripple will give Bitcoin and any other ecurrency the mass adoption avenues, they simply will never achieve on their own.  Bitcoin is just one of many world currencies. (and I'm being nice calling it a currency) So, the greater benefit to mankind is not the delusional belief that the world will accept one currency, but the freedom to use any currency to actually buy goods and services, regardless what currencies those merchants choose to accept.

You see the future is not in which currency people will choose to use, but rather in the payment network that will make commerce possible for the masses.  If you love Bitcoin, support it, promote it, use it.  But don't be blinded by ideology into thinking that the world will ever accept one currency.  It won't and certainly not Bitcoin with all its limitations.  Truthfully, I'm indifferent to currencies.  I only have favoritism to the USD because I'm American and that's what we use to pay for our daily necessities.  Rent, food, water, electricity, healthcare, taxes, etc.  

But as the future draws near, payment networks, like Ripple, that allow me to pay in ANY currency and you receive that payment in ANY currency, are far more valuable and "world changing" than any single crypto currency.  As we all see now, crypto currencies are a dime a dozen.  Bitcoin just happens to be the most popular brand at the moment.  As with any "brand", that may not be true tomorrow but the payment networks that cater to all currencies, will endure.

      Good point... you may be right about that. I am only skeptical about ripple because it is backed by Google and centralized. That takes away the big advantage of bitcoin of being immune to political manipulation which can lead to war and market inefficiencies. But it is more like hawala which is definitely more efficient than traditional banking institutions. The Catholic church lost its stranglehold on Europe about 500 years ago, yet the Church and the Pope are still around and still wield considerable influence, although nothing on the level of the Feudal era. In the same way I am sure the dollar will still be around in some form for a long time even though it may go the way of Mt. Gox...

[lophie]

You are not willing to part with your coins that you paid alot for and "worked" so "hard" for. That is good and dandy for you but I want to sell some of the Bitcoins I bought at $2-$5 dollars to enjoy some of the fruits of the investments I made. May I please do that without newb bullish threads from a random Joe Six Coiner about how much Bitcoin should worth?

I personally think $10k USD is undervaluing a Bitcoin. But we live in the real world and the real world disagrees. Aside of few individuals all over history societies proven to be pretty stupid in many many occurrences.

So shill and cheer differently please, noob.

[Coinseeker]

      Good point... you may be right about that. I am only skeptical about ripple because it is backed by Google and centralized. That takes away the big advantage of bitcoin of being immune to political manipulation which can lead to war and market inefficiencies. But it is more like hawala which is definitely more efficient than traditional banking institutions. The Catholic church lost its stranglehold on Europe about 500 years ago, yet the Church and the Pope are still around and still wield considerable influence, although nothing on the level of the Feudal era. In the same way I am sure the dollar will still be around in some form for a long time even though it may go the way of Mt. Gox...

And that my friend, is the beauty of choice.  Put all the world currencies, including crypto, into a payment network and let people decide for themselves what they prefer.  Maybe the masses choose USD, maybe they choose BTC or maybe they will forever choose a wide range of currencies.  The key in understanding is, people not only deserve the choice, they demand it.

As for Ripple specifically, keep your reservations and suspicions.  OpenCoin has a lot to prove and a lot of commitments to honor.  But don't neglect increasing your understanding of the technology.  Regardless of whether it is Ripple or some other "brand" that brings this payment network to the masses, this will happen and that's good news for crypto.  No more begging merchants to accept one crypto currency, merchants just need to be plugged into such a network and payments via all currencies can flow freely.  

[mmitech]

I think I'll stick with Ripple as far as a payment network goes.  As for my go to currency, I'll stick with USD.  Accepted everywhere...no questions asked.   That said, as long as I can make USD, buying and selling BTC, I'm cool with it.  

     If the total value of the United States as a country with all the social and cultural capital and assets is X, then the value of the dollar is a representation of this, or X=Y. If X is changing at a rate of A, then the money supply can increase or decrease at a rate of A too and the value of the dollar will stay steady. If the X is changing at a rate of A and Y is changing a rate of B, then, if A>B the purchasing power of the dollar will go up. If A<B, then the purchasing power will go down.

       Right now, Y is increasing at an absolutely unprecedented rate and this is diluting the value of the dollar in favor of the recipients of the newly issued dollars. In this case, those recipients are banks, particularly those holding mortgages.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/06/81-5-of-money-created-through-quantitative-easing-is-sitting-there-gathering-dust-instead-of-helping-the-economy.html  (EDIT: wow, vokain posted a link to the same article while I was writing this)

    This makes the balance sheets of banks look a lot better and allows them to continue lending (at a profit, with interest) which spurs growth in construction, small businesses, consumer goods purchases (credit cards). A lot of people, myself included, have wondered how the fed can create so much new money without inflation skyrocketing- and the answer is that most of the money is being hoarded. The Chinese have about 3 trillion dollars in dollar denominated bonds and foreign currency reserves, and US banks have about 1.8 trillion sitting around. If either start to dump their dollars, the market will follow suit and the dollar will crash.

    This is basically a financial cold war- if the Chinese start to dump dollars US banks can immediately respond by unleashing a huge pile of dollars too, devaluing the dollar so China gets stuck with a big pile of paper. Notice that the US banks reserves are less than China's- that means that if China tries to dump that the US stands to lose much less- not to mention that in the case of hyperinflation the 17 trillion in US debt will suddenly become much less valuable in real terms, although since hyperinflation will hit the poor hard it would require martial law and a rationing system to allocate basic consumer goods.  

     The piles of dollars sitting around are basically potential inflation that has not been unleashed. Check it out- if US banks have 10% of the dollars in the world, and the fed increases the money supply by 20% and gives all of the dollars to the banks, the banks went from having 10% of all the dollars to having 25% of all dollars. Or concretely- if there are 100 trillion dollars on paper worldwide, and banks have 10 trillion of them, and then the fed prints 20 trillion new dollars and gives them all to the banks, the banks now have 30 trillion dollars of a total of 120 trillion dollars "existing." 30 is 25% of 120. If 100 trillion dollars are worth 1 trillion bushels of soya(or insert non-fiat commodity here), or the combined buying power of all dollars in existence is 1 trillion bushels of soya, assume that the number 20 in this example represents the amount by which the growth in the money supply EXCEEDS the growth in underlying value.
     Banks in the US just went from having the power to buy 100 billion bushels of soya to having the power to buy 250 billion bushels of soya- and all they did was make a ton of non-performing loans!

       These numbers are just meant to simplify what I'm trying to say, which is that China has a huge pile of dollars they have made exporting to the US, and the US is using inflation and the threat of inflation to steal that money back. How long do you think China is going to put up with this? They can't do much about it, but they have officially sanctioned bitcoin use in China- and it's crazy that they would promote such an unregulated technology when they are known for being the arch-financial regulators- they are doing so because they know that the more bitcoin is used the more it will erode the dollar. They are also deregulating the yuan so that yuan will start to migrate overseas and they can sell exports directly for yuan rather than having to continue to accept dollars that are having their value quietly robbed by US private banks. They are also buying Iranian crude oil and paying with subway cars since sanctions hinder dollar denominated transactions.

      If China gets too uppity, the US has been eyeballing Iran for a while, and Syrian escalation with Iran providing supplies to the side that the US is increasing pressure against means possible pretext for involvement. For example, if the US instates a no-fly zone in Syria a la Libya, Iranian anti-aircraft weapons in the hands of Syrian forces could end up hitting US fighters. This would necessitate bombing supply convoys coming from Iran towards Syria, and eventually provide an excuse for the US to finally try to take over Iran or send piles of those freshly minted dollars to factions inside Iran that will do what the CIA tells them too as long as dollars keep flowing, and force China to keep paying for the oil they need to keep their economy running in dollars, thereby maintaining demand for the dollar and allowing the US to continue robbing the value of China's hard earned piles of dollars.

      So really holding dollars is basically akin to hot potato or musical chairs, except that there's a war when the music stops. If you are speculating by buying high and selling low, you are basically trying to beat the market which means take the money from less adept traders. This is not a win-win. There are plenty of ways to make money in win-win circumstances. You are feeding off of other people's losses, and guess what? What goes around comes around. Quantitative easing is basically the biggest rip off the world has ever seen, and everyone holding dollars stands to lose from it- except the people receiving the newly minted dollars.

        That happens to include me, since I am a home owner in the US and QE is what enables banks to renegotiate loans without collapsing. That means the possibility to renegotiate mortgage payments to lower rent and increase profits of property owners, which translates to more cash in circulation and increased consumer spending, which leads (partly) to the gains we are seeing in Wall Street right now. (EDIT: Oh yeah, and I think it also has something to do with the good employment numbers in the US, whereas ECB QE is dwarfed by US QE and the Eurozone has major unemployment problems) Money represents work, and the US is getting more money without really doing any more work- and who is paying for this increased value? Where do people work 16 hours a day, 6 days a week? I smell a slave rebellion in the works.

          Basically a total overhaul of society is necessary and it means absolute political death for whoever is in power when it happens. This will mean that !surprise! Western liberal democracy will meet the same fate that every democracy in history has met- a slide to totalitarianism. So yeah... if you want to support this scenario, go ahead and keep using dollars. You know that scene in Braveheart where William Wallace is giving the speech the Scottish army- well you could substitute the words "lives" for dollars and "freedom" for bitcoin.

   "They can take our dollars, but they cannot take our BITCOOOIIINNNN!!!"
    

+1

you sir, are one educated person, when I read most of comments in the bitcointalk a question pop-up in my mind "what am I doing here wasting my time reading stupid posts" but you remind me that there is still educated and smart people around here, not only the pump and dump and crying and scaming a-holes...... thank you I enjoyed reading your post.