From UK need advice on how do I avoid getting into trouble from tax office govt?

[very_452001]

Hi,

I don't know about the tax laws or bank laws in UK however instead of remaining ignorant I like to know what are the govt laws, bank laws and tax laws of bitcoin sales in UK and who do I declare it to?

I do not want to get into trouble for money laundering or tax evasion etc. so best to be safe and abide to the laws to avoid profits being confiscated you know what I mean.

Lets say for example I invested £10 into bitcoin several years and now I am a millionaire by cashing out those bitcoins to fiat money now. The £millions are on a exchange just gotta transfer the £millions to my bank account.

Just a average bank account not a private or swiss bank account or offshore bank account.

The questions are:

If an exchange is in a different country to where I don't live then am I obliged to follow that country laws. For example coinbase is USA based and I live in UK.
All accounts and data are on a online computer databases nowadays where all info can be found out with just a click of a button or computer software alerts being triggered off.

How does a USA exchange like coinbase report back accounts to UK government?

Once I transfer the £millions to my bank account from exchange then will my bank account freeze my £millions and treat me like a criminal?

I don't understand how all these bitcoin millionaires buying Lambos easily or what did they do get their profits smoothly without interruptions so they can buy those Lambos?

What are the limits etc. that you must declare in regards to bitcoin?

Thanks,

[Hamphser]

We didn't  even know how those bitcoin millionaires did able to cash out their funds without any troubles. I'm sure there was but we don't know which way they used on not for them to experience problem. If you do really have doubts on this one then the best choice or thing to do is consult a lawyer regarding this since they do know almost everything when it comes to your countries law and the things should be avoided and to be consider when it comes to taxation matters.

[ogcabrera]

I am in the same position. Being a UK resident where crypto gains are treated as Capital Gain Tax (for most people) leaves me completely puzzled. What happens if my btc are in my Ledger Nano and I use them to buy that mythical Lambo? in theory I should declare a capital gain but the mechanics of it are mind-bending.

Every transaction from btc to ltc to ada back to btc , etc , etc.... then to my cold wallet then a year later I buy the Lambo... Jeee!!! how do I declare that???

In essence. I buy 1 btc today at 15K. Send it to my cold wallet. Next year it is worth 50K (hey I'm an optimist!)...  How does HMRC (IRS here in the UK) know anything about this?

If I had a couple of mills I would be tempted to have a holiday in Panama with my Nano S in my pocket.. just saying... 

[darkangel11]

The questions are:

If an exchange is in a different country to where I don't live then am I obliged to follow that country laws. For example coinbase is USA based and I live in UK.
All accounts and data are on a online computer databases nowadays where all info can be found out with just a click of a button or computer software alerts being triggered off.

You as a UK citizen are obliged to follow its laws. The exchange, which is registered abroad, follows the laws of that country. In other words, you don't declare income in the US as you aren't a citizen and aren't residing there.

How does a USA exchange like coinbase report back accounts to UK government?

They don't. An exchange reports its own profits, it doesn't do it for its clients. The clients are obliged to file tax reports themselves. If the tax office ask an exchange about the details of a client the exchange can refuse to comply. It happens frequently because this is a breach of data protection laws and a tax office has no authority to ask for that. Such demand has to be approved by a judge first. This means that coinbase will not contact your local tax office first, but they can send them data if asked.

Once I transfer the £millions to my bank account from exchange then will my bank account freeze my £millions and treat me like a criminal?

Possibly. Huge sums like that will be flagged immediately and could be temporarily frozen. They are used to huge money going through corporate accounts but not private ones and the recently established anti terrorist laws demand they verify the origin of the money.
Why would you want to transfer everything at one go to a single account when you could exchange < £45k a year, pay 20% tax and be done with it?

[very_452001]

The questions are:

If an exchange is in a different country to where I don't live then am I obliged to follow that country laws. For example coinbase is USA based and I live in UK.
All accounts and data are on a online computer databases nowadays where all info can be found out with just a click of a button or computer software alerts being triggered off.

You as a UK citizen are obliged to follow its laws. The exchange, which is registered abroad, follows the laws of that country. In other words, you don't declare income in the US as you aren't a citizen and aren't residing there.

How does a USA exchange like coinbase report back accounts to UK government?

They don't. An exchange reports its own profits, it doesn't do it for its clients. The clients are obliged to file tax reports themselves. If the tax office ask an exchange about the details of a client the exchange can refuse to comply. It happens frequently because this is a breach of data protection laws and a tax office has no authority to ask for that. Such demand has to be approved by a judge first. This means that coinbase will not contact your local tax office first, but they can send them data if asked.

Once I transfer the £millions to my bank account from exchange then will my bank account freeze my £millions and treat me like a criminal?

Possibly. Huge sums like that will be flagged immediately and could be temporarily frozen. They are used to huge money going through corporate accounts but not private ones and the recently established anti terrorist laws demand they verify the origin of the money.
Why would you want to transfer everything at one go to a single account when you could exchange < £45k a year, pay 20% tax and be done with it?

Hi thank you for your quick response, to clarify what max amount in £gbp do you recommend for withdrawal from exchange to a normal bank account to prevent the hassle of being flagged on the bank's computers resulting in temporary freezure of the bank account? Do you mean smaller separate withdrawals under £45k instead of the whole lump sum amount in one go?

If I do the multiple withdrawals smaller amounts approach won't that unnecessary flag the exchanges computers and bank computers for suspicious activity or do is there a recommended time interval that I should wait between withdrawals from exchange?

Also does the bank computers automatically report to HMRC for what deposit amounts?

[darkangel11]

It depends. There are EU regulations that state when the bank has to report transfers. AFAIK those are sums over €15k (or multiple transfers from the same source that exceed this amount). Even if you get reported there's no certainty the tax office or another government agency that checks those reports will take interest. They are getting a large number of these reports every month and only a small % is being checked. I read that in the US transfers of over $10000 get flagged, so like I said it depends on the country. I've also read that there were cases where banks blacklisted some exchanges because they were suspecting them of money laundering. That's why you can never be sure with these things.
It's even worse when you're bringing cash into the bank. They can get suspicious of even much smaller sums than €15k and could ask where you got it from. (crazy!)
I'm pretty sure that transfers smaller than personal allowance (£11000) aren't being reported anywhere or flagged as long as they are sporadic. If you keep getting £2000 every single month, on top of your salary, it will eventually catch someone's attention.

[very_452001]

It depends. There are EU regulations that state when the bank has to report transfers. AFAIK those are sums over €15k (or multiple transfers from the same source that exceed this amount). Even if you get reported the tax office or another government agency that checks those reports will take interest. They are getting a large number of these reports every month and only a small % is being checked. I read that in the US transfers of over $10000 get flagged, so like I said it depends on the country. I've also read that there were cases where banks blacklisted some exchanges because they were suspecting them of money laundering. That's why you can never be sure with these things.
It's even worse when you're bringing cash into the bank. They can get suspicious of even much smaller sums than €15k and could ask where you got it from. (crazy!)
I'm pretty sure that transfers smaller than personal allowance (£11000) aren't being reported anywhere or flagged as long as they are sporadic. If you keep getting £2000 every single month, on top of your salary, it will eventually catch someone's attention.

Much appreciated for your valuable response there. Ok if we can never be sure with banks like you mentioned that what you suggest to get my money safely? How are these bitcoin millionaires doing it?

How you define sporadic and please give successful examples of this for easier understanding. You mean sporadic in £amounts or time intervals?

[darkangel11]

Much appreciated for your valuable response there. Ok if we can never be sure with banks like you mentioned that what you suggest to get my money safely? How are these bitcoin millionaires doing it?

They are keeping most of their assets in BTC. Take a look at some of the richest like the W twins. They aren't turning anything to fiat.
I don't know how the millionaires in the UK are doing it, but If I had a couple millions I'd consider moving abroad and buying a piece of land on some tropical island, away from the wars, migration, pollution and politics.

How you define sporadic and please give successful examples of this for easier understanding. You mean sporadic in £amounts or time intervals?

Sporadic in time intervals. The safe amount is probably up to £11k per account from the same source per year. That doesn't mean you can't send more. Chances are you won't be flagged, chances are you will be but no authorities will take action, or they will but only to check if it was included in your tax report. I wouldn't worry too much.

If you were really scared of the banks and authorities and at the same time wanted to go the legal way (money to a bank account, reporting income) you could always set up 2 or 3 separate bank accounts and divide your coins between 2 or 3 exchanges. Then sell below £11k worth of coins on each of the exchanges and move it to your banks. Withdraw cash and put it in a deposit box or a safe. Note that this is an overkill option for those who don't trust banks (like I do after the Cyprus bailout) and want to have total control of their money.

[very_452001]

Much appreciated for your valuable response there. Ok if we can never be sure with banks like you mentioned that what you suggest to get my money safely? How are these bitcoin millionaires doing it?

They are keeping most of their assets in BTC. Take a look at some of the richest like the W twins. They aren't turning anything to fiat.
I don't know how the millionaires in the UK are doing it, but If I had a couple millions I'd consider moving abroad and buying a piece of land on some tropical island, away from the wars, migration, pollution and politics.

How you define sporadic and please give successful examples of this for easier understanding. You mean sporadic in £amounts or time intervals?

Sporadic in time intervals. The safe amount is probably up to £11k per account from the same source per year. That doesn't mean you can't send more. Chances are you won't be flagged, chances are you will be but no authorities will take action, or they will but only to check if it was included in your tax report. I wouldn't worry too much.

If you were really scared of the banks and authorities and at the same time wanted to go the legal way (money to a bank account, reporting income) you could always set up 2 or 3 separate bank accounts and divide your coins between 2 or 3 exchanges. Then sell below £11k worth of coins on each of the exchanges and move it to your banks. Withdraw cash and put it in a deposit box or a safe. Note that this is an overkill option for those who don't trust banks (like I do after the Cyprus bailout) and want to have total control of their money.

Ok im getting to understand more, do you know which exchanges allows withdrawals to multiple bank accounts?

Just to clarify it is £11k limit per year? If so that sucks if I was a bitcoin millionaire who like to cash out.

If only more places and shops accept bitcoin so no need to cash out you know what I mean. Like I can walk straight into a lambo dealership and pay directly with bitcoin.

[TheQuin]

Ok im getting to understand more, do you know which exchanges allows withdrawals to multiple bank accounts?

Not sure about that, you would have to check with each exchange. Also, there are many large traders on localbitcoins.com and as trading is peer-2-peer you could use as many bank accounts as you wished.

Just to clarify it is £11k limit per year? If so that sucks if I was a bitcoin millionaire who like to cash out.

I think most people that have made a lot from holding Bitcoin don't want to cash out as they believe that holding Bitcoin is superior to holding fiat currencies. They will most likely only be cashing out a small part of their profits.

If only more places and shops accept bitcoin so no need to cash out you know what I mean. Like I can walk straight into a lambo dealership and pay directly with bitcoin.

Here you go https://www.moonlambos.io/showroom

[darkangel11]

Ok im getting to understand more, do you know which exchanges allows withdrawals to multiple bank accounts?

Just to clarify it is £11k limit per year? If so that sucks if I was a bitcoin millionaire who like to cash out.

If only more places and shops accept bitcoin so no need to cash out you know what I mean. Like I can walk straight into a lambo dealership and pay directly with bitcoin.

£11K limit shouldn't concern you unless you're really scared about being spied on by your government or having to prove where you're getting all those money without running a business. In many countries throughout the EU the authorities demand that you register a business if you're getting a steady income from one and the same source. This means that if you're cutting your neighbor's lawn twice a year you're fine, but if you're doing it 3 times a week for 6 months a year...
Also that 11k a year will only help you with money laundering laws or if you wanted to avoid taxes, that's why it's such a small amount. If you have 1 million to cash out you should be looking for a tax haven country or try to break it into smaller amounts and sell for cash.

If only more places and shops accept bitcoin so no need to cash out you know what I mean. Like I can walk straight into a lambo dealership and pay directly with bitcoin.

Here you go https://www.moonlambos.io/showroom

There's also this: https://www.bitcoinluxurymarketplace.com/cars.php

[gentlemand]

Once I transfer the £millions to my bank account from exchange then will my bank account freeze my £millions and treat me like a criminal?

I don't understand how all these bitcoin millionaires buying Lambos easily or what did they do get their profits smoothly without interruptions so they can buy those Lambos?

What are the limits etc. that you must declare in regards to bitcoin?

Thanks,

There are no limits. You're selling your property and someone else is buying it.

Check this - https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinUK/comments/7lioco/cashing_out_with_gemini/  A real live Brit successfully selling a large amount.

There are also Localbitcoins traders who'll take large amounts off you - https://localbitcoins.com/accounts/profile/skegyuk/

There may be limits on the exchanges. If you have millions you'd be better off doing an OTC deal which is basically business class Localbitcoins. An OTC broker pairs you with a buyer and the money goes straight to you from the buyer.

Before this happens you'd be very wise to tell your bank and tell them you have a paper trail. I've kept all of my old private keys and downloaded trade histories from exchanges so I can trace the buying of my coins.

The main concerns banks have is money laundering. With a paper trail you're proving it's not laundered, you're just selling it for shit tons more than you bought it for and you have the proof too.

In the UK Nationwide have proven to be the least bothered about crypto, one guy told me via PM he regularly deposited mid six figure sums from Bitcoin sales with no trouble from them, but their international transfer banks do have a problem with Bitcoin exchange accounts. If you have an OTC buyer this isn't an issue.

All of the truly huge sales will be OTC regardless of the country. You can sell however  much you want and not move the market that way.

If you buy something with BTC with a gain of more than the capital gains limit, which is £11,300, then you're obligated to declare that and pay tax on the gain.

It's all just a case of doing your homework and being sensible. It doesn't matter where it comes from, if several million quid arrive in your bank account unannounced the bank will have kittens.

[cynical]

Hi,

I don't know about the tax laws or bank laws in UK however instead of remaining ignorant I like to know what are the govt laws, bank laws and tax laws of bitcoin sales in UK and who do I declare it to?

I do not want to get into trouble for money laundering or tax evasion etc. so best to be safe and abide to the laws to avoid profits being confiscated you know what I mean.

Lets say for example I invested £10 into bitcoin several years and now I am a millionaire by cashing out those bitcoins to fiat money now. The £millions are on a exchange just gotta transfer the £millions to my bank account.

Just a average bank account not a private or swiss bank account or offshore bank account.

The questions are:

If an exchange is in a different country to where I don't live then am I obliged to follow that country laws. For example coinbase is USA based and I live in UK.
All accounts and data are on a online computer databases nowadays where all info can be found out with just a click of a button or computer software alerts being triggered off.

How does a USA exchange like coinbase report back accounts to UK government?

Once I transfer the £millions to my bank account from exchange then will my bank account freeze my £millions and treat me like a criminal?

I don't understand how all these bitcoin millionaires buying Lambos easily or what did they do get their profits smoothly without interruptions so they can buy those Lambos?

What are the limits etc. that you must declare in regards to bitcoin?

Thanks,

i think as soon as a substantial amount is transferred to a bank account alarm bells will start ringing
and the account may well be frozen until you can give the bank an explanation.
you could get one of those crypto credit cards, withdraw the maximum amount from your ATM,
accumulate it to €100,000 and open a swiss bank numbered account?
the logistics of that might be a bit tricky but im sure its done.
might be best to employ a crafty accountant also.

[gentlemand]

i think as soon as a substantial amount is transferred to a bank account alarm bells will start ringing
and the account may well be frozen until you can give the bank an explanation.
you could get one of those crypto credit cards, withdraw the maximum amount from your ATM,
accumulate it to €100,000 and open a swiss bank numbered account?
the logistics of that might be a bit tricky but im sure its done.
might be best to employ a crafty accountant also.

So your solution to potential legal and logistical problems... is to do something illegal and logistically problematic. Remind me not to recruit you for my financial planning.

[darkangel11]

you could get one of those crypto credit cards, withdraw the maximum amount from your ATM,
accumulate it to €100,000 and open a swiss bank numbered account?

I've seen some of the services you're talking about and their fees are quite high. Sure, you're buying a semi anonymous way of turning a lot of coins into cash, but what you're going to go through makes the whole thing not worth it. (usually)
ATM fees, withdrawal fees, exchange fees, and don't forget about ATM limits. Usually it's going to be something like €1000 per day, so you'll have a lot of trips to the ATM before you'll get that million or two
Anyway, I got interested in these services when I wanted to compare how much does it cost to get cash under the radar vs going the normal exchange> bank route, and I came up with about 10%. This Is how much it will cost you to turn cryptocurrency into cash via independent payment systems. IMO it's not worth the trouble unless you really know what to do with all that cash.

[very_452001]

I recently overheard from a conversation with a accountant mentioning that opening a brand new bank account and withdraw from it using atm cash machine wont trigger bank's algorithms/red flags. Is this true or a myth?

Problem is having a £300 atm daily withdrawl limit means alot of trips to the cash machine which is tedious and long lol. Any advice?

[gentlemand]

I recently overheard from a conversation with a accountant mentioning that opening a brand new bank account and withdraw from it using atm cash machine wont trigger bank's algorithms/red flags. Is this true or a myth?

Problem is having a £300 atm daily withdrawl limit means alot of trips to the cash machine which is tedious and long lol. Any advice?

The bit that gets triggered is when you deposit £50,000,000 out of nowhere into your bank account. And it'll look even fishier if it's a new account. It doesn't matter how you withdraw it.

If you want to avoid banks get a Xapo or Bitpay debit card and you deposit BTC with them and withdraw GBP via ATMs. If you verify limits are high, but if you're withdrawing millions then expect to be reported.

[darkangel11]

If you want to avoid banks get a Xapo or Bitpay debit card and you deposit BTC with them and withdraw GBP via ATMs. If you verify limits are high, but if you're withdrawing millions then expect to be reported.

AFAIK Bitpay is dealing only in USD. Some ATMs will allow you to convert foreign currency but it's not worth it. The fees are simply too high.

I recently overheard from a conversation with a accountant mentioning that opening a brand new bank account and withdraw from it using atm cash machine wont trigger bank's algorithms/red flags. Is this true or a myth?

Problem is having a £300 atm daily withdrawl limit means alot of trips to the cash machine which is tedious and long lol. Any advice?

A lot of trips to ATM means a lot of money moved out in a couple months. It doesn't matter if you do it at one go or in 3 months because most banking systems work on balances. You can do 1000 withdrawals of just £100 each time and it will look just like it would if you took out whole 100k in one go.

[gentlemand]

AFAIK Bitpay is dealing only in USD. Some ATMs will allow you to convert foreign currency but it's not worth it. The fees are simply too high.

Bitpay also issues EUR and GBP cards via Wavecrest for EU residents. All the rest of the world apart from the US, for which they have a different card provider, is now persona non grata.

[TheQuin]

I recently overheard from a conversation with a accountant mentioning that opening a brand new bank account and withdraw from it using atm cash machine wont trigger bank's algorithms/red flags. Is this true or a myth?

Problem is having a £300 atm daily withdrawl limit means alot of trips to the cash machine which is tedious and long lol. Any advice?

The bit that gets triggered is when you deposit £50,000,000 out of nowhere into your bank account. And it'll look even fishier if it's a new account. It doesn't matter how you withdraw it.

Automatic flagging for AML checks is triggered when you send or receive an international wire transfer over the value of £10,000. That doesn't mean other conditions will not get an account flagged but in general, it is single large transfers rather than lots of smaller ones. Also, the source of the funds is important, if it comes from a UK private individual or company account it is better than coming from a crypto exchange's account.
Similarly when you withdraw taking out a few hundred a day from an ATM will be fine but if you walk into a branch and withdraw over £10,000 in cash then expect to get noticed.