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Author Topic: Your lack of Vigilance is costing YOU - Wake up!  (Read 247 times)
lrdeoliveira
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December 27, 2017, 12:30:54 AM
 #1

The last few months after losing far too much money on Bitcasino & a little on Bitstarz I have come to understand that their games are not fair. I have looked into the industry through a VIP contact I made there and have come to understand that white label solutions are 100% RIGGABLE. Since then I have contacted some people from other websites which are members of the Crypto Gambling Foundation. At first I thought it was a bit of a joke but have soon come to realise this needs to be looked into more!

https://cryptogambling.org/articles/the-problem-with-a-lack-of-vigilance/


Have you lost money playing on non provably fair websites? WAKE UP NOW


Here's the article I linked above. It's worth the read. Gamble responsibly guys. I'm going to start my own website soon trying to help people understand. I'd love it if Aengus could also reply to my PM in regards to helping the CGF more. This is an innitiative I want to take on.

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Provable fairness allows users to play on sites without the fear of their bets being altered into the house’s favor. But there’s an important caveat that is often missed or not explained to the players: full trustlessness is only there if the player does what they need to do also. Nearly all provably fair systems operate on the server seed client seed model. The server shows you a hash of their seed before you start betting and allows you to change your client seed before the first bet of the round. This way, since you are introducing new data into the hash function, the outcome of the hash is no longer controlled by the site as they do not have control over the data you give them.

But here’s the problem: many sites will pre-fill that box for users when they change their seed. This in itself does not have to be a problem. In fact, it’s possible for this to be even more secure than the user entering their own data. If the site allows you to enter up to 32 random characters and they pre-fill the client seed box with 32 actually random characters (preferrably generated on the client side with JavaScript instead of by the server) then it’s more secure than just entering “1234” as your seed, just like a password. (However it’s only “more secure” if the site is malicious and trying to change outcomes, and such a site would probably not generate good seeds for you so the point is moot).

The problem with pre-filling the client seed comes from a situation where the site is malicious, which we should assume until proven otherwise. A malicious site can easily generate a server seed and client seed ahead of time that when used result in more losing bets than winning ones. It’s just a matter of generating random client seeds and checking the results until they get one that’s sufficiently “bad”. If this site were to present this bad seed to the user as a sort of default option, many people would click past it and not think about it. The site would still use all the same provably fair algorithms, but could still be cheating you. Such a thing would only be possible if the site thinks you are likely to keep betting high or keep betting low, because estimates for you winning rely on consistently betting one or the other. (If the site generated a seed pair that would make you lose 55% of the time if you bet high, but you chose to bet low instead, you would be winning 55% of the time instead of losing). However, if the site does not allow you to pick high or low (or the game is some game other than dice where the numbers affect the outcome in a different way) then this opens up a good attack vector for them.

The concern with this kind of attack on players is small, because it would be difficult for a site to pull off consistently, especially without eventually drawing attention, but no hole however small should be discounted, especially with technology like machine learning becoming more prominent. If you take anything from reading this, always change your client seed to something that you created, copy down the hash of your server seed before you start betting and you’ll be fine.

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December 27, 2017, 12:46:51 AM
 #2

Interesting article, although it seems a bit hypothetical. How is it related to your first paragraph? Are you accusing those sites of defrauding you through this practice? Do they prevent you from choosing hi or low? Are there any gambling websites that prevent you from making this choice?
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December 27, 2017, 03:57:44 AM
 #3

If you play too much on gambling you will never know that you already lose, provably fair never help for a quite fair play game only a house edge gives favor for the advantage.That's why just test the water first if the gambling site gives a fair justice but a doubt only limited number of gambling sites are legit for fair level playing field.

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December 27, 2017, 05:40:35 AM
 #4

You would have lost your money anyway, even if they weren’t rigged.

I don’t understand why casinos would rig their systems because they make a lot of money without rigging them. The most important point for a casino is to attract customers. If there is traffic, casinos make money. The only reason I can think of, is that if they rig the system, people lose their money faster, but if they lose it too fast, they have a bad customer experience and tend to come back less.

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December 27, 2017, 05:50:52 AM
 #5

Definitely not fair to accuse casinos of doing such a thing without proof. Then again, when a casino isn't provably fair, how can you prove it?

Hopefully these casinos implement fairness. It's a very simple thing to do. It's not complicated what so ever.

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December 27, 2017, 06:28:26 AM
 #6

Provable fair has been thrown around in every gambling site in the internet like it is a casual thing but we still couldn't prove that they are indeed fair in the first place. They can say upfront in their website that they practice provable fairness in their games but we still don't have the means to verify it in a 100% manner. Well, as for starter, don't play in any casino where they don't "claim" their website is governed by provable fair. Second, gamble only the money that you are willing to lose. Never ever expect that you'll go home with any money or profit out of online casinos. Just play it as a hobby and don't expect anything.


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December 27, 2017, 07:40:15 AM
 #7

I have to agree with the other users as the article you quoted has a lot of "ifs" in it meaning that it is just a thought. There are no examples or named dice sites that are actually doing what the article is saying. Your warning is simply for something that does not even exist yet or it isn't even a mere issue for gamblers. If the article only have shown evidence with what dice sites are doing it will prove itself as a credible article.

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December 27, 2017, 07:51:26 AM
 #8

There is nothing like pure randomness. No matter how hard you try paradox of rationality vs irrationality will haunt you.

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December 27, 2017, 04:17:36 PM
 #9

Vigilance is still not the problem. Even if you are vigilant but do not know what to be vigilant about then there is no point. The fact is that people are not aware of what to look out for, heck for sure more than half of the people that try to gamble don't even know how the site is able to roll a random number (which is not actually random by the way, it is just simulating "randomness"). I do believe that in terms of the gambling sites, there should be some sort of centralized authority that would check the gambling sites if they are truly "provably fair". I know that people around here hate the word "centralized" but I believe this is a necessary evil.
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December 27, 2017, 04:39:21 PM
 #10

Are you accusing Bitcasino of defrauding you?
Also, why would you bet on a website you doubt?
Its not lack of vigilance, its stupidity to bet on a fishy website.
Its even more stupid to create a provably unfair house, more the unfairness, less the traffic and less the profit.
Also someone already said above, the aim of the house to hold you in, an unfair website will only empty your pockets faster and drive the users away.
 
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December 27, 2017, 07:05:28 PM
 #11

Interesting article, I have never looked at provably fair games in deeper like this.

So Sites that promote their games to be provably fair just because they give out hashed seed can also be rigged if we can't set up our own client seed. Have seen many of provably fair sites only allow us to autogenerate next client seed automatically which might also come from server side.  Roll Eyes

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December 27, 2017, 11:03:59 PM
 #12

Vigilance is still not the problem. Even if you are vigilant but do not know what to be vigilant about then there is no point. The fact is that people are not aware of what to look out for, heck for sure more than half of the people that try to gamble don't even know how the site is able to roll a random number (which is not actually random by the way, it is just simulating "randomness"). I do believe that in terms of the gambling sites, there should be some sort of centralized authority that would check the gambling sites if they are truly "provably fair". I know that people around here hate the word "centralized" but I believe this is a necessary evil.

You'd be surprised how unregulated online gaming is. It's sadly a very dark industry. It goes a lot deeper than just fairness, practices used to retain players & feed on addiction can be quite sad sometimes.

I think the original post should be reworded a bit, as the article is great but the discussion regarding it has been skewed.

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December 28, 2017, 12:49:26 AM
 #13

You would better don’t do that, Do not gamble this is very dangerous
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December 28, 2017, 07:20:36 PM
 #14

All i know is that any gambling website where people lose often will certain lose patronage and fold up. There is no 100% sure way of knowing whether a site is provably fair or not.
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December 28, 2017, 10:02:09 PM
 #15

You would better don’t do that, Do not gamble this is very dangerous

Can we stay on topic please? Everyone knows gambling is dangerous and this topic is there for people who understand the danger already and would like to look past that danger, into ways of enjoying their gambling lifestyle.

All i know is that any gambling website where people lose often will certain lose patronage and fold up. There is no 100% sure way of knowing whether a site is provably fair or not.

Actually, there is a way to know whether a site is provably fair or not. If you read the article carefully, you'd find it. You obviously misunderstood the article, so try reading it again. I'm not even gonna dare wasting my time on explaining it to you.


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December 28, 2017, 10:31:48 PM
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Vigilance is still not the problem. Even if you are vigilant but do not know what to be vigilant about then there is no point. The fact is that people are not aware of what to look out for, heck for sure more than half of the people that try to gamble don't even know how the site is able to roll a random number (which is not actually random by the way, it is just simulating "randomness"). I do believe that in terms of the gambling sites, there should be some sort of centralized authority that would check the gambling sites if they are truly "provably fair". I know that people around here hate the word "centralized" but I believe this is a necessary evil.

You'd be surprised how unregulated online gaming is. It's sadly a very dark industry. It goes a lot deeper than just fairness, practices used to retain players & feed on addiction can be quite sad sometimes.

I think the original post should be reworded a bit, as the article is great but the discussion regarding it has been skewed.

I totally agree, there is indeed nowhere to go without someone that would help gamblers with identifying problematic gambling sites. There is really no way a newbie gambler could have known that he is being cheated on a gambling site he found just by googling "bitcoin gambling casino" or other similar imports. Someone really has to police the casinos around the internet to prevent people from falling victim to an unfair and cheating casino.

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December 28, 2017, 11:28:33 PM
 #17

This isn't usually an issue that the casino is "not provably fair" because there are many cases where the casino does provide "provably fair" type gambling but people lose money anyways and complain and start scam accusations.

This is no different than those people that stand outside of casinos, telling other gamblers not to gamble there because they lost all their money and were cheated. They usually end up being chased away by security or the police arive to take them away.

I am pretty sure most of the issues today are not because gamblers are cheated but the gamblers just don't know when to stop gambling.

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SyGambler
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December 29, 2017, 12:28:42 AM
 #18

not only bitcasino and bitstarz , even fiat sites have the same thing especially with slots providers
they aren't provably fair , I know that it doesn't make sense for a casino to cheat on a player but who knows this may actually be the case
so players should decide if they trust the site enough to play , cause even pokerstars have a game that's called spin n goes where you can turn 5$ to one million  ( in a very rare situation of course ) it's not provably fair and they may be stealing some money but people trust them

in the future I doubt that we will see gambling as it's today , every gambling game should be provably fair

MadZ
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December 29, 2017, 12:42:30 AM
 #19

not only bitcasino and bitstarz , even fiat sites have the same thing especially with slots providers
they aren't provably fair , I know that it doesn't make sense for a casino to cheat on a player but who knows this may actually be the case
so players should decide if they trust the site enough to play , cause even pokerstars have a game that's called spin n goes where you can turn 5$ to one million  ( in a very rare situation of course ) it's not provably fair and they may be stealing some money but people trust them

in the future I doubt that we will see gambling as it's today , every gambling game should be provably fair

PokerStars was sold for $4.9 billion in 2014. It makes no sense for a company like that to try and scam for such a comparatively small amount as $1 million. They would be risking billions in equity by doing so. This is the same reason larger crypto-casinos should, if they're smart, not scam, since they can make much more money by selling the enterprise with a good reputation than scamming. Whether they are actually smart remains to be seen...
SyGambler
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December 29, 2017, 01:06:15 AM
 #20

not only bitcasino and bitstarz , even fiat sites have the same thing especially with slots providers
they aren't provably fair , I know that it doesn't make sense for a casino to cheat on a player but who knows this may actually be the case
so players should decide if they trust the site enough to play , cause even pokerstars have a game that's called spin n goes where you can turn 5$ to one million  ( in a very rare situation of course ) it's not provably fair and they may be stealing some money but people trust them

in the future I doubt that we will see gambling as it's today , every gambling game should be provably fair

PokerStars was sold for $4.9 billion in 2014. It makes no sense for a company like that to try and scam for such a comparatively small amount as $1 million. They would be risking billions in equity by doing so. This is the same reason larger crypto-casinos should, if they're smart, not scam, since they can make much more money by selling the enterprise with a good reputation than scamming. Whether they are actually smart remains to be seen...

yeah they won't go for that but was just giving an example , it's a matter of trust
but all games should be provably fair even if the site is super trusted and even regulated , it's better for both sides

some sites can be trusted cause they have big names , but you can't be 100% sure that they aren't scamming you if they don't have provably fair system

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