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Author Topic: Lightning Network VS SegWit2Mb(S2X)  (Read 479 times)
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December 27, 2017, 06:27:57 PM
 #1

Which one will be the solution to the bitcoin scalability problem (Dream of instant payments with low fees)?

Lightning Network: off-chain protocol

It would feature a P2P system for making micropayments of digital cryptocurrency through a scale-free network of bidirectional payment channels without delegating custody of funds or trust to third parties.[1]

SegWit2x: block size limit
was a failed contentious hardfork outlined in the New York Agreement that intended to double the block size limit. The hardfork has been denounced as an attempt made by CEOs and owners of large Bitcoin businesses to introduce changes to the currency's protocol and development cycle with ulterior motives.[2]

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December 27, 2017, 07:09:32 PM
 #2

This will definetly be the lightning network.
The lightning network is an implementation of hashed timelock contracts (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hashed_Timelock_Contracts).
The pro's of LN are pretty clear i think. The only contra argument (in my eyes) is that its not ready yet. It still takes some time until tests are done.
The first tests went successfull. But this hasn't been tested with massive amounts of transactions yet.
But once LN will get ready (and used) it will be able to process thousands to ten thousands of TX/s (with a 'very low' fee).
Theoretically 100k-1 million should be possible. But again.. there hasn't been any tests on this. And this (if posible to achieve) will take quite some time
until its smooth enough to process such a huge amount of transaction.

Doubling the blocksize on the other hand is just a short-term solution. And to be more precise: A bad one.
If increasing the blocksize is the only attempted solution to the scalability problem, this will fail in (probably) less than 10 years.
Blocks will get full again in a few years. Especially with such a high adoption rate as currently. Doubling the blocksize will seem to be a
solution again. But at some point, the time it takes for a nodes with non-high-tech-computing-machines to validate a block, will exceed
the amount it takes for big mining farms to mine a new block. This will lead to centralization and is exactly what bitcoin was not made for.
Additionally there hasn't been any tests on how the network would react to bigger blocks.
If you look at BCH for example: The blocks have an average size of 100kb. Thats far away from their double blocksize from BTC.

Segwit (not segwit2x) already increased the blocksize from 1mb to 4mb. Thats more than enough short-term solution until LN comes into play.

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December 27, 2017, 07:19:45 PM
 #3

It seems for me that lightning network makes bitcoin more centralized. I do not like this. How do you think?
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December 27, 2017, 07:48:48 PM
 #4

Bcash businessmen trying to cure cancer by chopping off tumors while experts at Core try chemotherapy, Stem cells transplant, good Nutrition etc.?

We need to cage our emotions to see the truth.



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December 27, 2017, 09:14:45 PM
 #5

It seems for me that lightning network makes bitcoin more centralized. I do not like this. How do you think?

I think that, lightning network will always be a CHOICE. You can still use old-type addresses, and pay higher transaction fees, or you can use lightning network with smaller fees.

I would use old-type addresses for big sums and lightning network for smaller sums.

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December 27, 2017, 09:17:11 PM
 #6

It seems for me that lightning network makes bitcoin more centralized. I do not like this. How do you think?

Centralized, how? I haven't seen any compelling evidence that the Lightning Network would devolve into a hub-and-spoke model. Even if it did, that would just indicate that several large entities process the majority of transactions. How is that fundamentally different than a handful of mining pools processing the majority of on-chain transactions?

In both cases, the centralized entities (Lightning "hubs" or mining pools) could play a role in censoring transactions. But they are unlikely to be able censor all transactions for a significant period of time. In both cases, users don't trust funds to third parties and still rely on decentralized consensus.

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December 27, 2017, 10:14:14 PM
 #7

A slight increase in centralization may be beneficial to the future of bitcoin, I believe if the lightning network is finalized ASAP bitcoin will have a viable future as an alternative to credit and fiat currency.


           
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December 27, 2017, 11:21:34 PM
 #8

A slight increase in centralization may be beneficial to the future of bitcoin, I believe if the lightning network is finalized ASAP bitcoin will have a viable future as an alternative to credit and fiat currency.

That's huge.
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December 28, 2017, 01:24:01 AM
 #9

Which one will be the solution to the bitcoin scalability problem (Dream of instant payments with low fees)?

Lightning Network: off-chain protocol

It would feature a P2P system for making micropayments of digital cryptocurrency through a scale-free network of bidirectional payment channels without delegating custody of funds or trust to third parties.[1]

SegWit2x: block size limit
was a failed contentious hardfork outlined in the New York Agreement that intended to double the block size limit. The hardfork has been denounced as an attempt made by CEOs and owners of large Bitcoin businesses to introduce changes to the currency's protocol and development cycle with ulterior motives.[2]


To me lightning network will be of good choice than segwit2mb because it is a layer two protocol that allows bitcoin users to create a network of bi-directional payment channels and perform instant off-chain transactions through these channels. Using lightning will reduce pressure on the blockchain while enabling much more transaction capacity (limited only by the number of channel open and channel close transactions that can fit in the blockchain). In terms of transaction, lightning network allowing participants to transfer money to each other without having to make all their transactions public on the blockchain (which would make transactions “lightening fast”).
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December 28, 2017, 02:30:32 AM
 #10

A slight increase in centralization may be beneficial to the future of bitcoin

How so?
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December 28, 2017, 06:27:39 AM
 #11

A slight increase in centralization may be beneficial to the future of bitcoin

How so?
This will cease the issues like: "Bitcoin doesn't have a real-word value"
I agree with Parodium's hindsight.

Look at the bigger picture, not just the stats.

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December 28, 2017, 07:40:50 AM
 #12

Both segwit2x and lightning network will resolve the scalability issue of bitcoin, although segwit2x will offers upgrading of capacity to 2MB, it is more preferable to lightning Network because LN is more centralized rather than decentralized due to the fact that it has to be registered as transmission of money in countries like USA where it is going to be subjected to regulations as against the the main feature of bitcoin  which of course  is decentralization.

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December 28, 2017, 11:53:34 AM
 #13

Both segwit2x and lightning network will resolve the scalability issue of bitcoin, although segwit2x will offers upgrading of capacity to 2MB, it is more preferable to lightning Network because LN is more centralized.

Segwit (not 2x) already inceased the block size from 1MB to 4MB (non-witness-part) in a soft fork earlier this year.
Currently blocks have the size of about 2-2,5 MB. If everyone would use segwit already, this could increase to 4MB.
Doubling (resp. increasing) the block size again is contra productive in terms of centralisation. Additionally its just a short-term solution to the scalability issue.

The Lightning network is no way more centralized.
Everyone will be able to open a payment channel. And payments will be distributed across different payment channels.
You will still be in control of your money, always. The LN is a second layer. It does not have to be used. Old on-chain transaction will still be possible.




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December 28, 2017, 12:29:57 PM
 #14

Lightning Network is a sticking plaster that will not hold
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYHFrf5ci_g

The main ledger should hold all transactions from $0.10 to $25,123 and
trying to split the data up using banks (Hubs) will only create more trouble

You don't write programs like this, you have all been taken in by a scam
to create CPU wars and to waste electricity or are you enjoying $45 fees
and a mere 7 transactions per second on BTC plus long wait times.

Inflation double on each fork so little to nothing from the original white-paper
is working and the crypto nuts have taken over programming here and made
a right mess of the whole thing.

VISA does 25,000 transactions per second and BTC has 1000 X More CPU
power to use than they have so come on guys, start waking up because it's BS
and trying to share a 200gb database between 20,000 nodes and to keep it in
sync is plain stupid

A good system must accept some type of centralization which you can do without
handing power over to anyone (Coordinators in effect) and the ledger must become
more tree like in its structure so that the processing can be carried out by organized
groups of nodes.

Pow is a total joke and needs throwing in the bin and if you build a shit system
that leaves itself open to this 51% attack they warn us about then go back to
school and learn to program.

 


Mining is CPU-wars and Intel, AMD like it nearly as much as big oil likes miners wasting electricity. Is this what mankind has come too.
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December 28, 2017, 02:29:32 PM
Last edit: December 28, 2017, 03:13:56 PM by Spendulus
 #15

Both segwit2x and lightning network will resolve the scalability issue of bitcoin, although segwit2x will offers upgrading of capacity to 2MB, it is more preferable to lightning Network because LN is more centralized rather than decentralized due to the fact that it has to be registered as transmission of money in countries like USA where it is going to be subjected to regulations as against the the main feature of bitcoin  which of course  is decentralization.

Lightning network can proceed and should proceed ignoring all regulations.

As did bitcoin.

Registering for person to person movement of virtual currency?

Get real.

In a world of cars and freeways, Bitcoin is a two lane country road.

LN is your flying car.
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December 28, 2017, 03:42:52 PM
 #16

Lightning Network is a sticking plaster that will not hold
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYHFrf5ci_g

The main ledger should hold all transactions from $0.10 to $25,123 and
trying to split the data up using banks (Hubs) will only create more trouble

You don't write programs like this, you have all been taken in by a scam
to create CPU wars and to waste electricity or are you enjoying $45 fees
and a mere 7 transactions per second on BTC plus long wait times.

Inflation double on each fork so little to nothing from the original white-paper
is working and the crypto nuts have taken over programming here and made
a right mess of the whole thing.

VISA does 25,000 transactions per second and BTC has 1000 X More CPU
power to use than they have so come on guys, start waking up because it's BS
and trying to share a 200gb database between 20,000 nodes and to keep it in
sync is plain stupid

A good system must accept some type of centralization which you can do without
handing power over to anyone
(Coordinators in effect) and the ledger must become
more tree like in its structure so that the processing can be carried out by organized
groups of nodes.

Pow is a total joke and needs throwing in the bin and if you build a shit system
that leaves itself open to this 51% attack they warn us about then go back to
school and learn to program.

 



By increasing the blocksize to an amount high enough to be able to deal with VISA's transactional volume (and we are looking at 25k transacions per second only at VISA, if Bitcoin has to be a global currency usable for everyday-tasks, we need much more) you would never be able to get around centralizing the network due the nodes being handled to datacenters, which are corporations, which are ultimately controlled easily by governments. You are handling control at layer 0.

With LN, everything happens at layer 1, layer 0 is still a decentralized network of nodes.

This is why BCash is dead and is not real competition when it comes to the idea of scaling Bitcoin.

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December 28, 2017, 04:13:38 PM
 #17


By increasing the blocksize to an amount high enough to be able to deal with VISA's transactional volume (and we are looking at 25k transacions per second only at VISA, if Bitcoin has to be a global currency usable for everyday-tasks, we need much more) you would never be able to get around centralizing the network due the nodes being handled to datacenters, which are corporations, which are ultimately controlled easily by governments. You are handling control at layer 0.

With LN, everything happens at layer 1, layer 0 is still a decentralized network of nodes.

This is why BCash is dead and is not real competition when it comes to the idea of scaling Bitcoin.
Playing with block sizes or timing is not the answer and it comes down to having more and more data all being stuffed
into a database that is already 200gb in size and then trying to distribute this to 20,000 machines and keep them all in
sync.

Trouble is you cannot just jump to the top of block to calculate the value of a wallet and you have to go back down
the chain (Link list of block headers) and check all the history of each coin or part coin in the wallet to decide if the
wallet has the money to spend. Processing 200gb of data is bad and it will only get much worse.

Repeat this 20,000 times you see why it costs 90KWH of electric just to process 250 bytes of data

BLOCK-CHAIN DOES NOT SCALE and having a two tear system using lighting and hubs (Banks) giving out IOU's
is not the answer and it will create more trouble than it solves.

Read up on IOTA Tangle or better still HashGraph and do not support CPU wars, silly high fees or PoW because from
a programmers perspective it is a joke and the crypto guys have taken over the board-room and are trying to design
systems that they know nothing about and this is why BTC is slow.

Yes i am sure I could come up with a few radical fixes using coordinators and a tree type structure for the mass of
data (200gb just now) and split it up by node groups but it would be better to start again from scratch and just
learn from the mess Mr "s-m"  has feed to the world.



Mining is CPU-wars and Intel, AMD like it nearly as much as big oil likes miners wasting electricity. Is this what mankind has come too.
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December 28, 2017, 04:47:15 PM
 #18

A slight increase in centralization may be beneficial to the future of bitcoin, I believe if the lightning network is finalized ASAP bitcoin will have a viable future as an alternative to credit and fiat currency.
As much as I like the concept of decentralization I would have to agree with you but in what sense would LN make bitcoin more centralized? Do you mean that some hubs will be superior to others?
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December 28, 2017, 05:04:10 PM
 #19

Processing 200gb of data is bad and it will only get much worse.

What? Who has to process 200 gb of data? A node when downloading/verifying blockchain the first (and only) time Huh
Kinda senseless statement.


Repeat this 20,000 times you see why it costs 90KWH of electric just to process 250 bytes of data

Could you please provide a source for your statement of 90 KHW for 250 bytes of data?
This seems like purely made up out of thin air.. Processing 250 bytes of data takes less than 1WH... not sure what you are talking about..


BLOCK-CHAIN DOES NOT SCALE and having a two tear system using lighting and hubs (Banks) giving out IOU's
is not the answer and it will create more trouble than it solves.

Please.. either:
1) Provide any proof for your assertion or
2) Just stop writing nonsense

Payment channels are far far away from banks.
Its fully decentralized (If you think the lightning network will lead to centralization, then please use google and start reading some scientific articles).


Read up on IOTA Tangle..

Yes.. IOTA is the way to go. With all of those network issues.. With all of those vulnerabilities to (almost) free attacks.
If you are so confident about IOTA's tangle, just sell all of your BTC's and move over to IOTA..

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December 29, 2017, 05:21:54 AM
 #20

Everyone seems to be saying the Lightning Network will lead to more centralization. No, 2x would have lead to more centralization. Just because some LN users will open more channels than others does not mean it is centralized. If you think someone has too many channels open, which we're pretending is a bad thing, then don't connect to them, and then you will still be able to use LN.
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