Bitcoin Forum
August 18, 2019, 08:27:48 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 0.18.0 [Torrent] (New!)
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: [1] 2 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Question about forum finances (again, 2017)  (Read 661 times)
redsn0w
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1708
Merit: 1039


#Free market


View Profile
December 28, 2017, 06:33:59 PM
 #1

Hi theymos,

I wanted to open this public thread just to ask you if it is possible to post the current forum finances. Basically a thread/update like this : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=780707.0


Thanks for the attention.
Quoting the post of July 2016.


Hi theymos,

is still (or again) possible to know the forum finances updated to 2017 like the last time?


Thanks.
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1566160068
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1566160068

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1566160068
Reply with quote  #2

1566160068
Report to moderator
1566160068
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1566160068

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1566160068
Reply with quote  #2

1566160068
Report to moderator
hilariousetc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1316
Merit: 2185


Pro board spammer


View Profile
December 28, 2017, 07:01:16 PM
 #2

Somebody else requested them earlier this month:

Hey guys,

is there public information about that?
I know theymos auctions up to 9 adspaces for around 30-40k $ per month right?
There exist forum donations.
Something else?

Expenses would be webserver, cloudflare, mods and admins.
How much does this costs per month?


Does the forum make profit? Is it possible to get more paid mods/patrollers in the case theymos doesnt change anything about spammers?

I would be interested to see the figures. Did he ever post the 2016 or 2017 ones yet? Seems you only got 2014 last time:

I haven't finished with 2015 yet.

2014 is as follows:

Code:
Income:
Donations: $114.78
Ads: $419,671.12
Expenses:
Fees & services: $10,886.03
Forum software project: $1,151,595.23
Other contractors: $39,297.05
Mod payments: $104,575.79
Bounties: $505.30

pugman
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1540
Merit: 1369


Sliding in ya DM's be like


View Profile WWW
December 28, 2017, 07:08:52 PM
 #3

I have a silly silly question to ask, please do forgive me.
Why is millions of dollars spent on the new forum? This much money spent on the new forum won't eradicate  the scammers and scumbags and shit posters away. This is none of my business but still am curious about it. And will there be more number of mods in the new forum at least? And what's the current state of the new forum?
Sorry for the off topic spam here.   Cry

AdolfinWolf
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1134
Merit: 1007


people run from rain but sit in bathtubs of water


View Profile
December 28, 2017, 07:34:36 PM
 #4

I have a silly silly question to ask, please do forgive me.
Why is millions of dollars spent on the new forum? This much money spent on the new forum won't eradicate  the scammers and scumbags and shit posters away. This is none of my business but still am curious about it. And will there be more number of mods in the new forum at least? And what's the current state of the new forum?
Sorry for the off topic spam here.   Cry

It probably wasn't millions when theymos put the offer to code the new forum out, it was more around ~275k$ worth of bitcoin.

The price simply increased 10-50fold, hence why it's now more like 10-20 million.

You can see the current state of the new forum here, https://beta.bitcointalk.org/404  Roll Eyes Don't look at it too long, since you are going to hate every little aspect about it. ( Or is that just me?)

pugman
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1540
Merit: 1369


Sliding in ya DM's be like


View Profile WWW
December 28, 2017, 08:15:30 PM
 #5

It probably wasn't millions when theymos put the offer to code the new forum out, it was more around ~275k$ worth of bitcoin.

The price simply increased 10-50fold, hence why it's now more like 10-20 million.

This clearly states theymos had spent around a little over a million dollars back in 2014 :-
Code:
Forum software project: $1,151,595.23

You can see the current state of the new forum here, https://beta.bitcointalk.org/404  Roll Eyes Don't look at it too long, since you are going to hate every little aspect about it. ( Or is that just me?)
I didn't see an altcoin section, so that's a start but most probably they would add the altcoin section  Undecided. So shit posting can't be avoided?

theymos
Administrator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3486
Merit: 6042


View Profile
December 28, 2017, 09:07:04 PM
Merited by redsn0w (1)
 #6

I'm behind on the accounting. 2015 is basically done, but I need to double-check it and apply the results of taxes (even when there's a net loss, there may be capital gain taxes). 2016 is still very incomplete: I've had to do half of the work in order to pay taxes, but I basically need to go through everything again to figure out forum balances. Sloppy, I know, but I've been disincentivized to spend many hours figuring it out exactly because the reserves so obviously exceed the expenses. There's currently about 1250 BTC(+BCH) in reserve.

Keep in mind that if I make an accounting mistake, almost certainly the result of this will be that I pay forum expenses out of my own pocket accidentally. The income is almost all very obvious/public, and I have to list all of the expenses that I temporarily paid out of pocket in order to be repaid from the forum income or reserves. So it's very unlikely that I would take too much money.

Here are approximate numbers.

Code:
2015:
Income: About $144,000
Expenses - Forum software project: $849,400
Expenses - Mods and others: About $104,000

2016:
Income: About $178,000
Expenses - Forum software project: $36,260
Expenses - Mods and others: About $85,000
Expenses - Hosting etc: About $27,000

2017 !!!VERY TENTATIVE!!!
Income: About $1,065,000
Expenses - Forum software project: About $159,000
Expenses - Mods and others: About $120,000
Expenses - Hosting etc: About $40,000

1NXYoJ5xU91Jp83XfVMHwwTUyZFK64BoAD
pit2525
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 18
Merit: 0


View Profile
December 28, 2017, 09:17:00 PM
 #7

Oh dear, don't want to do that job... basically working for free or even worse, you pay for it...

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed: How comes the decision to develop something new rather than use existing solution and customize?

Would be great if someone can give a short summery on that.
Blazed
Casascius Addict
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2044
Merit: 1110



View Profile WWW
December 29, 2017, 04:26:09 AM
 #8

Oh dear, don't want to do that job... basically working for free or even worse, you pay for it...

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed: How comes the decision to develop something new rather than use existing solution and customize?

Would be great if someone can give a short summery on that.

All of the existing solutions do not have the custom back end that is needed for the mods. That is my understanding of the main factor. The goal was to create a new open sourced software with a killer admin setup.
Panthers52
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 675
Merit: 501


#SuperBowl50 #NFCchamps


View Profile WWW
December 29, 2017, 04:44:58 AM
 #9

It seems that income skyrocketed in 2017, but mod payments did not keep up. My understanding is that mod payments should be 25% of income. What happened?

PGP 827D2A60

Tired of annoying signature ads? Ad block for signatures
nrm4bits
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 131
Merit: 103


View Profile
December 29, 2017, 04:46:18 AM
 #10

I just have two simple questions to ask: Why would i be interested about forum finances? What's in there for me/us?
Sorry if it's obvious.
theymos
Administrator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3486
Merit: 6042


View Profile
December 29, 2017, 05:48:55 AM
 #11

It seems that income skyrocketed in 2017, but mod payments did not keep up. My understanding is that mod payments should be 25% of income. What happened?

I posted an estimate like that a long time ago, but it was an estimate as of that time, not a guaranteed amount. The mod payments algorithm has never taken forum income into account whatsoever, and you can see that in 2015 and 2016 it was much higher than 25%.

The increased-value reserve and massive 2017 income (which may well have been just a weird temporary trend) came pretty suddenly. I'm not sure yet how best to handle it. I've been thinking of maybe allocating some of the money toward creating a registered non-profit which would have a similar mission as the forum, but would focus more on things like free-speech legal battles and the development of true decentralized forum software. I also need to figure out ways of delegating more, since I am absolutely swamped as things are right now. Perhaps I could hire someone with a business degree or something who can act more like a proper CEO. Suggestions publicly or via PM are welcome, but please focus more on structural improvements rather than lists of things to throw money at. This has already been the case to a large extent, but especially now, the limiting factor is mostly time/people/skill/trust rather than money.

1NXYoJ5xU91Jp83XfVMHwwTUyZFK64BoAD
Panthers52
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 675
Merit: 501


#SuperBowl50 #NFCchamps


View Profile WWW
December 29, 2017, 07:21:30 AM
 #12

It seems that income skyrocketed in 2017, but mod payments did not keep up. My understanding is that mod payments should be 25% of income. What happened?

I posted an estimate like that a long time ago, but it was an estimate as of that time, not a guaranteed amount. The mod payments algorithm has never taken forum income into account whatsoever, and you can see that in 2015 and 2016 it was much higher than 25%.
I must have gotten that from older auction threads, such as round 165.

The increased-value reserve and massive 2017 income (which may well have been just a weird temporary trend) came pretty suddenly. [...] I also need to figure out ways of delegating more, since I am absolutely swamped as things are right now. Perhaps I could hire someone with a business degree or something who can act more like a proper CEO. Suggestions publicly or via PM are welcome, [...]
Most bitcoin related businesses saw huge surges in business activity, and pretty much all of them were unable to scale their operations, especially from a customer service/support perspective.

First and foremost, written procedures are needed to instruct moderators how to handle certain situations. The procedures do not necessarily need to be public (some, such as security related procedures certainly should not be public), and can be changed as necessary, even retroactively when appropriate.

There should be a moderator who is ultimately responsible for each individual sub (or group of subs). This moderator should have the authority to create rules within that sub (with certain limits). There could be other moderators that "report" to this moderator, and have full moderator privileges in SMF, but would be expected to follow the direction of the moderator in charge of that sub when moderating that sub. Any concerns about the moderation of that sub should be initially directed to the moderator ultimately responsible, either via PM, or the moderator should respond to meta threads created. There should be a moderator who acts as an escalation point for a group of subs, and if necessary, a second (higher in authority) escalation point for a larger group of subs. For example, moderator a would be responsible for reputation, moderator b would be responsible for scam accusations, moderator c would be responsible for trading discussion only, moderator d would be responsible for overseeing all of trading discussion, moderator e would be responsible for overseeing all of marketplace, and moderator f would be responsible for overseeing all of economy -- some of these can be consolidated as necessary (it could be moderator a is responsible for all of trading discussion, and moderator b oversees all of economy). After all levels of escalation have been pursued, the issue can then be discussed with a global moderator, and subsequently with an admin (or if having a global moderator would result in too many levels of management, it could go directly to an admin). If a PM is sent to an admin about an issue in reputation, and it is not clear the various escalations points have not attempted to address the issue, the admin can place the PM in a queue for the moderator responsible for reputation, who can either mark the PM as something they will personally respond to (after they respond to it), or as something they have already discussed with this person, at which point, it would go into the queue for the person who oversees all of trading discussion, and so on and so fourth.


In regards to things like password resets, various types of unban requests (for bans resulting from security incidents, breaking of rules, etc.), ban appeals, ban requests, etc., a certain subset of moderators should have read only access to information necessary to make a decision in regards to these types of requests, will create a report/checklist compiling information in an easy to read format, and submit the report/checklist to an admin who can more quickly make a decision verses having to do the original research themselves. An admin who can handle a ban appeal does not necessarily need to be able to handle a password reset, although they can if they are sufficiently trusted, and volume permitting -- the same is true for moderators who compile the reports/checklists. This is one area where the written procedures will be greatly beneficial.

PGP 827D2A60

Tired of annoying signature ads? Ad block for signatures
darklus123
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 1092
Merit: 575


★Bitvest.io★ Play Plinko or Invest!


View Profile
December 29, 2017, 08:29:34 AM
 #13

These numbers were just so amazing.  Since the profit skyrocketed this year can we like try to provide more funds for improving our system? I was not saying tho that the mods are not making any possible actions for it since there were funds given for the forum software development.
Quote
"Expenses - Forum software project: About $159,000"
I was just curious if what are the products created for spending $159,000.



.
.BIG WINNER!.
[15.00000000 BTC]


▄████████████████████▄
██████████████████████
██████████▀▀██████████
█████████░░░░█████████
██████████▄▄██████████
███████▀▀████▀▀███████
██████░░░░██░░░░██████
███████▄▄████▄▄███████
████▀▀████▀▀████▀▀████
███░░░░██░░░░██░░░░███
████▄▄████▄▄████▄▄████
██████████████████████

▀████████████████████▀
▄████████████████████▄
██████████████████████
█████▀▀█▀▀▀▀▀▀██▀▀████
█████░░░░░░░░░░░░░████
█████░░░░░░░░░░░░▄████
█████░░▄███▄░░░░██████
█████▄▄███▀░░░░▄██████
█████████░░░░░░███████
████████░░░░░░░███████
███████░░░░░░░░███████
███████▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄███████

██████████████████████
▀████████████████████▀
▄████████████████████▄
███████████████▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
███████████▀▀▄▄█░░░░░█
█████████▀░░█████░░░░█
███████▀░░░░░████▀░░░▀
██████░░░░░░░░▀▄▄█████
█████░▄░░░░░▄██████▀▀█
████░████▄░███████░░░░
███░█████░█████████░░█
███░░░▀█░██████████░░█
███░░░░░░████▀▀██▀░░░░
███░░░░░░███░░░░░░░░░░

██░▄▄▄▄░████▄▄██▄░░░░
████████████▀▀▀▀▀▀▀██
█████████████░█▀▀▀█░███
██████████▀▀░█▀░░░▀█░▀▀
███████▀░▄▄█░█░░░░░█░█▄
████▀░▄▄████░▀█░░░█▀░██
███░▄████▀▀░▄░▀█░█▀░▄░▀
█▀░███▀▀▀░░███░▀█▀░███░
▀░███▀░░░░░████▄░▄████░
░███▀░░░░░░░█████████░░
░███░░░░░░░░░███████░░░
███▀░██░░░░░░▀░▄▄▄░▀░░░
███░██████▄▄░▄█████▄░▄▄

██░████████░███████░█
▄████████████████████▄
████████▀▀░░░▀▀███████
███▀▀░░░░░▄▄▄░░░░▀▀▀██
██░▀▀▄▄░░░▀▀▀░░░▄▄▀▀██
██░▄▄░░▀▀▄▄░▄▄▀▀░░░░██
██░▀▀░░░░░░█░░░░░██░██
██░░░▄▄░░░░█░██░░░░░██
██░░░▀▀░░░░█░░░░░░░░██
██░░░░░▄▄░░█░░░░░██░██
██▄░░░░▀▀░░█░██░░░░░██
█████▄▄░░░░█░░░░▄▄████
█████████▄▄█▄▄████████

▀████████████████████▀




Rainbot
Daily Quests
Faucet
pit2525
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 18
Merit: 0


View Profile
December 29, 2017, 10:57:13 AM
 #14

Oh dear, don't want to do that job... basically working for free or even worse, you pay for it...

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed: How comes the decision to develop something new rather than use existing solution and customize?

Would be great if someone can give a short summery on that.

All of the existing solutions do not have the custom back end that is needed for the mods. That is my understanding of the main factor. The goal was to create a new open sourced software with a killer admin setup.


Thanks for clarification.

Noticed the special meta board for it, will check there for more details.
LTU_btc
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Activity: 1330
Merit: 669



View Profile WWW
December 29, 2017, 03:10:56 PM
 #15

So, forum were running with loss in 2015, minimal profit in 2016, and now in 2017, income from ads skyrocket.
It's not surprise. Number of Bitcointalk users increased rapidly, following same trend as wesaw in exchanges, ICO's and etc. But I think that with increased income from ads and much bigger number of users, we need for more moderators. In my view, it's enough current moderators to be able to fight with spam.
And it's interesting, how much money still have to be spent and how many years it can take to finally release new forum software?
And another theorical question - if signature campaigns (especially ICO's bounty campaigns) would be banned, how it wouldaffect forum traffic and income from sold advertisement slots? I suspect that forum expenses would exceed income from ads again :/
Anyway, I remember reading somewhere that Bitcointalk still have millions $ in their reserves.




▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄    ▄▄▄▄                  ▄▄▄   ▄▄▄▄▄        ▄▄▄▄▄   ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄    ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄   ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄   ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
 ▀████████████████▄  ████                 █████   ▀████▄    ▄████▀  ▄██████████████   ████████████▀  ▄█████████████▀  ▄█████████████▄
              ▀████  ████               ▄███▀███▄   ▀████▄▄████▀               ████   ████                ████                   ▀████
   ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄█████  ████              ████   ████    ▀██████▀      ██████████████▄   ████████████▀       ████       ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄████▀
   ██████████████▀   ████            ▄███▀     ▀███▄    ████        ████        ████  ████                ████       ██████████████▀
   ████              ████████████▀  ████   ██████████   ████        ████████████████  █████████████▀      ████       ████      ▀████▄
   ▀▀▀▀              ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀   ▀▀▀▀   ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀  ▀▀▀▀        ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀   ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀        ▀▀▀▀       ▀▀▀▀        ▀▀▀▀▀

#1 CRYPTO CASINO & SPORTSBOOK
 WELCOME
BONUS
.INSTANT & FAST.
.TRANSACTION.....
.PROVABLY FAIR.
......& SECURE......
.24/7 CUSTOMER.
............SUPPORT.
BTC      |      ETH      |      LTC      |      XRP      |      XMR      |      BNB      |     more
hilariousetc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1316
Merit: 2185


Pro board spammer


View Profile
December 29, 2017, 03:22:15 PM
 #16

But I think that with increased income from ads and much bigger number of users, we need for more moderators. In my view, it's enough current moderators to be able to fight with spam.

I wouldn't be against more mods but a more pressing issue would be to distribute workload between current staff. We obviously need another admin to help with account recoveries etc but I've also suggested theymos assemble a group of the most active mods to be dedicated sig spammer mods and issuing temp and permabans etc because ICOs and the half-assed managers they employ obviously can't be trusted to run them.

redsn0w
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1708
Merit: 1039


#Free market


View Profile
January 06, 2018, 01:53:58 PM
 #17

Thanks for the reply theymos, I was just curious.
theymos
Administrator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3486
Merit: 6042


View Profile
July 25, 2019, 11:52:32 PM
Merited by dbshck (4), redsn0w (2), fillippone (1)
 #18

Code:
2017
Income: $996,494 + $6257 donations
Expenses - Forum software project: $246,138
Expenses - Mods and others: $261,433
Expenses - Hosting etc: $49,726

2018
Income: $473,247 + $479 donations
Expenses - Forum software project: $272,250
Expenses - Mods and others: $204,547
Expenses - Hosting etc: $43,907

Tax is not included for 2017. Because bitcointalk.org is tax-wise a disregarded entity, it's difficult for me to calculate the tax costs attributable to forum activities. I'll do it some other day.

1NXYoJ5xU91Jp83XfVMHwwTUyZFK64BoAD
guigui371
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1301
Merit: 1031


View Profile
July 26, 2019, 03:30:43 AM
 #19

Thanks for the transparency

BTC is the one true King!
Pffrt
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 700
Merit: 62

★Bitvest.io★ Play Plinko or Invest!


View Profile
July 26, 2019, 12:03:28 PM
 #20

Thank you for posting the financial statements. It's interesting.
One question-
Why don't we count all the income+expense in BTC? Wouldn't it be fair if we had done so? All those fund were received in BTC certainly. I think it would be more interesting to get BTC value since we are calculating the financial statement of Bitcoin forum.

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
PLINKO    |7| SLOTS     (+) ROULETTE    ▼ BIT SPINBITVESTPLAY or INVEST ║ ✔ Rainbot  ✔ Happy Hours  ✔ Faucet
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
Pages: [1] 2 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!