What's going on with Bitcoin????

[StevenS]

Nothing is going on with bitcoin per se, what you are witnessing is first hand greed and what happens when a group of people don't agree.

Greed does not cause excessive transaction fees.

The interesting fact of transaction fees is that the people who receive them (the miners) have no control over their amount.

Users (you and I) have demanded fast confirmation times, so the wallet developers have responded, with large suggested transaction fees, based on transaction fees of other unconfirmed transactions.

[StevenS]

Bitcoin is becoming less useful for small investors.Large fees have now deterred many people from investing or using bitcoin. Its a rich mans game.

A small investor can use an exchange. Personally, I have made many small (~$100) purchases using LocalBitcoins.com, leaving my BTC there until I have accumulated enough to justify a transfer to my private wallet.

[tund3r]

Nothing is going on with bitcoin per se, what you are witnessing is first hand greed and what happens when a group of people don't agree.

Greed does not cause excessive transaction fees.

The interesting fact of transaction fees is that the people who receive them (the miners) have no control over their amount.

Users (you and I) have demanded fast confirmation times, so the wallet developers have responded, with large suggested transaction fees, based on transaction fees of other unconfirmed transactions.

Fast confirmation time? if I want to transfer $20 what would be your suggested transaction fee to make sure the transaction is actually confirmed? (not fast, I just want to be sure the transaction will occur)

[MrJake]

I think what's happening is yet again another complication from our third parties. Yes, i think its better to stick to the white paper.

[Pleione527]

Yes it's true it's no longer wise when you transact with bitcoin with this very high transaction fees I also try to do it but when I saw the fees higher than my transactions I'd rather keep my coins and till the fees drop. This is one reason why hardfork was introduce because somehow bitcoin is no longer relevant we need something faster and more reliable coin if this scenario continue to happen I will not be surprise everyone will transfer to a much better alts

[ldah94]

Apparently the bitcoin developers did not prevent this problem, high rates, perhaps at the time would not believe that bitcoin was going to have great growth in its price, now it has become a currency only to have it retained and not to do Payments.

[mahibul49]

bitcoin will reach out from small investors soon and bitcoin will be used for big payment.
bcz its fee are so expensive now .but its still early stage if u want to buy bitcoin.

[olushakes]

Its really disheartening to see situation get worse to this level and I see a lot of people getting shut out from investing into bitcoin. A lot of people would want to invest but want to try with little amount to have a feel of what it is about but now, that seems like a dream whose possibility to be a reality is only in that dream, yet I see a lot of people still making a case as to why that is happening. I guess the inflow that should come into bitcoin, will have to move on to other alternatives.

[tund3r]

Its really disheartening to see situation get worse to this level and I see a lot of people getting shut out from investing into bitcoin. A lot of people would want to invest but want to try with little amount to have a feel of what it is about but now, that seems like a dream whose possibility to be a reality is only in that dream, yet I see a lot of people still making a case as to why that is happening. I guess the inflow that should come into bitcoin, will have to move on to other alternatives.

I think soon someone will be able to fork effectively, or bitcoin cash will ultimately take over ... I hope this moment comes soon

[DannyHamilton]

Fast confirmation time? if I want to transfer $20 what would be your suggested transaction fee to make sure the transaction is actually confirmed? (not fast, I just want to be sure the transaction will occur)

First of all, you can't transfer $20 with the bitcoin protocol.  You can't transfer U.S. dollars at all.  You can ONLY transfer bitcoins.

I assume you are asking about transferring $20 worth of bitcoins?  But, since the exchange rate of bitcoins is constantly changing depending on current demand in the market, the actual amount of bitcoins will be different now than earlier or later.

For the sake of discussion, lets go with an exchange rate of $14500 per bitcoin.

So, what I think you are actually asking is:

"If I want to send 0.00137931 BTC (1.37931 millibitcoins) what would your suggested transaction fee be to make sure the transaction confirms?"

The answer to that question is also constantly changing, and it depends significantly on how you received those 0.00137931 bitcoins.

That being said...

Based on this chart:
https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#2h

It looks (given the network conditions at the time that I am writing this post) like you can expect to get your transaction confirmed if you pay a fee of at least 0.00000140 BTC (0.00140 millibitcoins) per byte.

Lets assume that you previously received a payment of exactly 0.00164811 BTC to a traditional P2PKH address (address that starts with a 1) which you have not yet spent.  In that case, you could expect to be able to create a transaction sending 0.00137931 BTC which requires no more than 192 bytes and therefore a transaction fee of only 0.00026880 BTC (approximately $3.90 worth of bitcoins at the exchange rate of $14500)

If you received a slightly smaller payment to a SegWit address, then you could pay an even smaller fee.

If you are willing to wait a long time for confirmation (a few weeks), you might be able to pay a fee as low as 0.00000100 BTC per byte (only 0.00019200 BTC in the above example).

[StevenS]

if I want to transfer $20 what would be your suggested transaction fee to make sure the transaction is actually confirmed? (not fast, I just want to be sure the transaction will occur)

Bitcoin has been called "Digital Gold", as an analogy.

To use this analogy, how would I transfer $20 worth of gold? If I had a block, I could shave off a piece, but then I would have to have the weight of the $20 piece certified, as well as the weight of the remaining block. A professional would charge more than $20 for this. So I wouldn't do that.

A practical way of transferring $20 of bitcoin is to use a service. For example, I use LocalBitcoins.com. I have more than $20 worth of bitcoin there. I can transfer that to another LocalBitcoins.com user for 1%. Problem solved.

[Bancia3210]

if it reach to 20k then who know what will gonna happened to bitcoin  it demands will increasing and doing more investment on bitcoin will help bitcoin to move more forwards

[yoseph]

Its really disheartening to see situation get worse to this level and I see a lot of people getting shut out from investing into bitcoin. A lot of people would want to invest but want to try with little amount to have a feel of what it is about but now, that seems like a dream whose possibility to be a reality is only in that dream, yet I see a lot of people still making a case as to why that is happening. I guess the inflow that should come into bitcoin, will have to move on to other alternatives.

And we can't really blame them at all, the developers are closed their ears to the investors and the very thing which was supposed to be free from the control of anyone in the entire, has been hijacked by the developers who have made themselves dictators.Bitcoin Cash will eventually surpass bitcoins.

[tund3r]

Fast confirmation time? if I want to transfer $20 what would be your suggested transaction fee to make sure the transaction is actually confirmed? (not fast, I just want to be sure the transaction will occur)

First of all, you can't transfer $20 with the bitcoin protocol.  You can't transfer U.S. dollars at all.  You can ONLY transfer bitcoins.

I assume you are asking about transferring $20 worth of bitcoins?  But, since the exchange rate of bitcoins is constantly changing depending on current demand in the market, the actual amount of bitcoins will be different now than earlier or later.

For the sake of discussion, lets go with an exchange rate of $14500 per bitcoin.

So, what I think you are actually asking is:

"If I want to send 0.00137931 BTC (1.37931 millibitcoins) what would your suggested transaction fee be to make sure the transaction confirms?"

The answer to that question is also constantly changing, and it depends significantly on how you received those 0.00137931 bitcoins.

That being said...

Based on this chart:
https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#2h

It looks (given the network conditions at the time that I am writing this post) like you can expect to get your transaction confirmed if you pay a fee of at least 0.00000140 BTC (0.00140 millibitcoins) per byte.

Lets assume that you previously received a payment of exactly 0.00164811 BTC to a traditional P2PKH address (address that starts with a 1) which you have not yet spent.  In that case, you could expect to be able to create a transaction sending 0.00137931 BTC which requires no more than 192 bytes and therefore a transaction fee of only 0.00026880 BTC (approximately $3.90 worth of bitcoins at the exchange rate of $14500)

If you received a slightly smaller payment to a SegWit address, then you could pay an even smaller fee.

If you are willing to wait a long time for confirmation (a few weeks), you might be able to pay a fee as low as 0.00000100 BTC per byte (only 0.00019200 BTC in the above example).

given that the amount you are suggesting guarantee the transaction, in my opinion it doesn't, $3.90 to transfer the equivalent of $20 worth of bitcoin is around 20% premium on the transaction. A credit card charges 3% to the merchant.

[DannyHamilton]

given that the amount you are suggesting guarantee the transaction, in my opinion it doesn't,

You are welcome to your own opinion.

I'll stick with the facts.

$3.90 to transfer the equivalent of $20 worth of bitcoin is around 20% premium on the transaction. A credit card charges 3% to the merchant.

Exactly.  This is why I would not send an on-chain bitcoin transaction to pay for $20 worth of product or service.

There are multiple ways a business could handle it, but in the end on-chain transactions are very valuable things.  Very valuable things are expensive.

I wouldn't use a $14000 diamond to trade for something that is worth $20.
I wouldn't use $14000 worth of gold to trade for something that is worth $20.
I wouldn't use a $14000 car to trade for something that is worth $20.

I also wouldn't use a $14000 bitcoin to trade for something that is worth $20.

Note that the transaction fee is based on what the transaction fee is paying for (space in the blockchain).  It is NOT based on the value of the bitcoins you are transfering.  So, a 192 byte transaction that transfers 1 BTC ($14,500 worth of bitcoin) is going to cost the same in fees as a 192 byte transaction that transfers 0.00137931 BTC ($20 worth of bitcoin).  This is because in BOTH CASES the fees are paying for 192 bytes of space in the blockchain.

The fees system was designed by Satoshi to INTENTIONALLY DISCOURAGE use of bitcoin blockchain transactions for smaller value amounts.  This makes sure that there is always space available in the blockchain for the transactions with the highest value to byte-size ratio.

This was the intended design from the beginning.  Your choice is to create smaller transactions, pay higher fees, or leave bitcoin to those that are willing and able to create smaller transactions and pay higher fees.  This is what the whitepaper was created for. This is what Satoshi's code was designed for. This is how bitcoin always has worked, and always will work.

[tund3r]

given that the amount you are suggesting guarantee the transaction, in my opinion it doesn't,

You are welcome to your own opinion.

I'll stick with the facts.

$3.90 to transfer the equivalent of $20 worth of bitcoin is around 20% premium on the transaction. A credit card charges 3% to the merchant.

Exactly.  This is why I would not send an on-chain bitcoin transaction to pay for $20 worth of product or service.

There are multiple ways a business could handle it, but in the end on-chain transactions are very valuable things.  Very valuable things are expensive.

I wouldn't use a $14000 diamond to trade for something that is worth $20.
I wouldn't use $14000 worth of gold to trade for something that is worth $20.
I wouldn't use a $14000 car to trade for something that is worth $20.

I also wouldn't use a $14000 bitcoin to trade for something that is worth $20.

Note that the transaction fee is based on what the transaction fee is paying for (space in the blockchain).  It is NOT based on the value of the bitcoins you are transfering.  So, a 192 byte transaction that transfers 1 BTC ($14,500 worth of bitcoin) is going to cost the same in fees as a 192 byte transaction that transfers 0.00137931 BTC ($20 worth of bitcoin).  This is because in BOTH CASES the fees are paying for 192 bytes of space in the blockchain.

The fees system was designed by Satoshi to INTENTIONALLY DISCOURAGE use of bitcoin blockchain transactions for smaller value amounts.  This makes sure that there is always space available in the blockchain for the transactions with the highest value to byte-size ratio.

This was the intended design from the beginning.  Your choice is to create smaller transactions, pay higher fees, or leave bitcoin to those that are willing and able to create smaller transactions and pay higher fees.  This is what the whitepaper was created for. This is what Satoshi's code was designed for. This is how bitcoin always has worked, and always will work.

I'm sorry, does the whitepaper say bitcoin is a digital diamond or does it say it's a digital cash?

[tund3r]

given that the amount you are suggesting guarantee the transaction, in my opinion it doesn't,

You are welcome to your own opinion.

I'll stick with the facts.

$3.90 to transfer the equivalent of $20 worth of bitcoin is around 20% premium on the transaction. A credit card charges 3% to the merchant.

The fees system was designed by Satoshi to INTENTIONALLY DISCOURAGE use of bitcoin blockchain transactions for smaller value amounts.  This makes sure that there is always space available in the blockchain for the transactions with the highest value to byte-size ratio.

where does it say this? looks like this is your own speculation

[Reid]

What's the purpose of letting the transaction pool to get so full to have transactions falling out of the pool, having the fees so high that we have a limit on the minimum transaction and some exchanges stopping the withdrawals because of the network congestion?

There is no purpose for any of this! None of this is ideal! The problem is a decentralized group of developers not willing to agree on a single direction. That's why we've seen several hard forks, coup attempts, trying to evolve Bitcoin to something better.

What's the reason for letting bitcoin get so distant from the whitepaper? What can we do to have it back on track?

Bitcoin hasn't drifted from the whitepaper, it's just matured and grown such that it needs to be updated to evolve with the growing demand.

Now you made him mad! The liom came out!
I want to agree and also disagree.
Maybe if you are on the miners side you can understand it and I have heard it.
True that it is congested. We are having problems now because of the overload transactions that are making a wall for the others to enter.
Who made this? Us.
We are so cheap that we want an almost free transaction and miners needs to make a living too.  (Although some of them are really greedy).

Maybe after all of this is cleaned up we should start changing how we do our txs.

[tund3r]

What's the purpose of letting the transaction pool to get so full to have transactions falling out of the pool, having the fees so high that we have a limit on the minimum transaction and some exchanges stopping the withdrawals because of the network congestion?

There is no purpose for any of this! None of this is ideal! The problem is a decentralized group of developers not willing to agree on a single direction. That's why we've seen several hard forks, coup attempts, trying to evolve Bitcoin to something better.

What's the reason for letting bitcoin get so distant from the whitepaper? What can we do to have it back on track?

Bitcoin hasn't drifted from the whitepaper, it's just matured and grown such that it needs to be updated to evolve with the growing demand.

Now you made him mad! The liom came out!
I want to agree and also disagree.
Maybe if you are on the miners side you can understand it and I have heard it.
True that it is congested. We are having problems now because of the overload transactions that are making a wall for the others to enter.
Who made this? Us.
We are so cheap that we want an almost free transaction and miners needs to make a living too.  (Although some of them are really greedy).

Maybe after all of this is cleaned up we should start changing how we do our txs.

To the miners won't change much if the fee comes from mining 2 transactions or one, the fact is that right now the system is able to process 3 transactions per second, and this include the whole world economy! My guess is the miners would be extremely happy to be able to have a system to process more than 3 transactions per second and win a lower fee from each of them

[tund3r]

Just to recap ... So far I didn't hear a single valid argument that says why we shouldn't improve the system, I just heard someone telling me I'm stupid wanting to use my cash to pay something is worth less than thousands dollar (or at least 0.1 bitcoins so nobody corrects me)