[BTC-TC] BTC Growth: Capital Growth via Hedge Fund-Style Investing

[DrGregMulhauser]

Have you talked to people who were willing to lend you shares of these big companies whose share price will drop? I will give you all my money if you can do that (sorry, I mean, Bitcoins).

There are no worthwhile put options right now I am aware of.

We're now delving into company-specific details, which takes us pretty far afield from the general point I was offering; as of this writing, put options on ASICMiner are available at three different strike prices on BTCT.co alone. I cannot really comment on what would make them 'worthwhile' for anyone in particular, although I will say that in general, options premiums in the Bitcoin space seem to favour option writers.

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[DrGregMulhauser]

Slightly related:
Jurov created difficulty futures on BTC-TC (ending 18th September) and BitFunder (21st August, 18th September), also available for shorting.

And difficulty futures have been available for a relatively long time on ICBIT, although liquidity is nearly non-existent, unfortunately.

[vandinn]

Have you talked to people who were willing to lend you shares of these big companies whose share price will drop? I will give you all my money if you can do that (sorry, I mean, Bitcoins).

There are no worthwhile put options right now I am aware of.

We're now delving into company-specific details, which takes us pretty far afield from the general point I was offering; as of this writing, put options on ASICMiner are available at three different strike prices on BTCT.co alone. I cannot really comment on what would make them 'worthwhile' for anyone in particular, although I will say that in general, options premiums in the Bitcoin space seem to favour option writers.

I don't think 5 days is enough for people to realize how horribly overpriced AM is (and it is on the cheaper side). Although the next 35% difficulty jump might provide a hint for some.

Slightly related:
Jurov created difficulty futures on BTC-TC (ending 18th September) and BitFunder (21st August, 18th September), also available for shorting.

And difficulty futures have been available for a relatively long time on ICBIT, although liquidity is nearly non-existent, unfortunately.

And they are trading at a reasonable price, unlike mining securities.

[vandinn]

Congratz. The fund got approved at BTC-TC. One last thing: I hope you understand how careful you need to be with regards to security. Please, use 2FA everywhere and don't trade large amounts anywhere where this option is not available. Too many bots are browsing the internet in search of unprotected Bitcoins. Best of luck.

[DrGregMulhauser]

The fund was approved for listing on BTC-TC last night, so we can move forward with issuing shares at any time. However, the whole application process went very quickly and smoothly, and there is no particular urgency to getting the listing out the door, so what I'd like to do is leave the discussion open for another couple of days to allow any remaining questions to be answered and to give the exchange moderators extra time for any feedback they might like to offer.

I'll post again shortly with details of the specific date and time for getting started, but for now I'd like to thank everyone who has put time and effort into reading and evaluating the listing documents. Thank you also to those who have additionally provided feedback, both publicly and in private.

[DrGregMulhauser]

In order to keep the general discussion about the fund separate from the specifics of the initial offering, I've posted about the time, date, and mechanics of the offering in a separate thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=272879.0

[arctos]

regarding excluded investments, is creating a separate "LTC-Growth" fund out of the question if not just incorporating a ltc denominated account into the existing BTC-Growth fund?

[DrGregMulhauser]

regarding excluded investments, is creating a separate "LTC-Growth" fund out of the question if not just incorporating a ltc denominated account into the existing BTC-Growth fund?

The fund is permitted to invest in businesses which are not listed on BTC-denominated exchanges, but given that our aim is capital growth denominated in Bitcoin, we would be looking for structures that enable us to reduce or eliminate exposure to exchange rate fluctuations.

A separate LTC-denominated fund wouldn't be out of the question, although we don't have any specific plans for one at the moment.

Separately, please note I'll be out of the office today, so any followups will be delayed until Thursday.

[stslimited]

Haha, I like how you handled this in your FAQ,  these exact kinds of questions quickly derailed my fund offering as I wasn't prepared for them. I hope my High Frequency Trading fund IPO thread derailing served as a good case study in helping you form your FAQ

Q: OMG, are you some kind of total n00b? You only registered on the forum in June! Who do you think you are, proposing an investment fund without at least [insert preferred number] posts or activity level [insert preferred number] under your belt?

A: I appreciate that many who have participated in the forum for longer periods of time have invested thousands of dollars worth of their time in generating hundreds or even thousands of forum posts. I also appreciate that the longer a person has been involved with the forums, the more opportunities they have had to have been personally duped by someone who later turned out to be a scammer. I understand that this can create a very strong incentive not to repeat the mistakes of the past and to treat everyone who has not followed the same path of investing large sums in forum posts as arrogant, incompetent, or out to get you (maybe all three). However, I hope that even the oldest of old timers will acknowledge that not everyone treats investing large sums in forum posts — or even registering on the forum at all — as a pre-condition for learning about Bitcoin, for using Bitcoins, or for investing in the Bitcoin economy. (I am far from alone in having done all of these things before registering on the site, as evidenced at the very least by my articles published prior to registering for a forum account.) The ghosts of scammers past demonstrate all too well that forum longevity does not on its own imply anything about trustworthiness or competence; registration date on a forum is simply not a reliable proxy for either competence or trustworthiness. On the contrary, a robust and well-aged forum account is a scammer's single most powerful tool of exploitation. Nor does the absence of forum longevity on its own imply anything about an absence of trustworthiness or competence.

[DrGregMulhauser]

Haha, I like how you handled this in your FAQ,  these exact kinds of questions quickly derailed my fund offering as I wasn't prepared for them...

There have still been plenty of questions that I didn't anticipate in the FAQ, though; there might even need to be an expanded version of the FAQ when all is said and done...

[stslimited]

Haha, I like how you handled this in your FAQ,  these exact kinds of questions quickly derailed my fund offering as I wasn't prepared for them...

There have still been plenty of questions that I didn't anticipate in the FAQ, though; there might even need to be an expanded version of the FAQ when all is said and done...

I'll be looking for it, I will consider using it as a model for my next fund

[drawingthesun]

Ok I am reading through the document.

Do you think that a 0% per annum of AUM and 25% of profits would be a better incentive than the typical 2/20 hedge fund system?

I find it interesting that you could be losing us money whilst still making 2% year over year.

EDIT: Also how many hours until you close the IPO? I am interested.

[DrGregMulhauser]

Do you think that a 0% per annum of AUM and 25% of profits would be a better incentive than the typical 2/20 hedge fund system?

I find it interesting that you could be losing us money whilst still making 2% year over year.

Many variations exist, and I'm sure other people would make the relevant judgement calls in different ways. Folks should not participate in the fund if they have any reservations whatsoever about its structure.

EDIT: Also how many hours until you close the IPO? I am interested.

As I indicated in the thread about the mechanics of the IPO, I will review the listing Saturday morning UK time and will close the initial ask order if any shares remain at that time; I didn't specify an exact number of hours to go. The offering has now been open for over 28 hours, and it appears that the bulk of current demand for it has been met. As of this writing, 1230 of the initial 20,000 tranche remain.

[ThickAsThieves]

Do you think that a 0% per annum of AUM and 25% of profits would be a better incentive than the typical 2/20 hedge fund system?

I find it interesting that you could be losing us money whilst still making 2% year over year.

Many variations exist, and I'm sure other people would make the relevant judgement calls in different ways. Folks should not participate in the fund if they have any reservations whatsoever about its structure.

EDIT: Also how many hours until you close the IPO? I am interested.

As I indicated in the thread about the mechanics of the IPO, I will review the listing Saturday morning UK time and will close the initial ask order if any shares remain at that time; I didn't specify an exact number of hours to go. The offering has now been open for over 28 hours, and it appears that the bulk of current demand for it has been met. As of this writing, 1230 of the initial 20,000 tranche remain.

People are beating around the bush. What they mean to ask is whether this tranche will sell out without new shares being placed for sale. The flippers are waiting.

[DrGregMulhauser]

People are beating around the bush. What they mean to ask is whether this tranche will sell out without new shares being placed for sale. The flippers are waiting.

It looks like 720 shares currently remain from the initial 20,000. I don't have any plans to release further tranches immediately in response to the first tranche selling out, should it do so. As outlined under the "Subscriptions and Redemptions" section, however, we may do so in the future, should the shares begin to trade at a premium to the most recently reported NAV.

[drawingthesun]

People are beating around the bush. What they mean to ask is whether this tranche will sell out without new shares being placed for sale. The flippers are waiting.

Even though I have flipped stock before I am going to hold a small amount of this one. It seems like one of the more interesting investments. (minings IPOS are now a dime a dozen)

[eikzbtc]

All sold 

[homad]

yes indeed. lets do this 

[xchrisxsays]

People are beating around the bush. What they mean to ask is whether this tranche will sell out without new shares being placed for sale. The flippers are waiting.

It looks like 720 shares currently remain from the initial 20,000. I don't have any plans to release further tranches immediately in response to the first tranche selling out, should it do so. As outlined under the "Subscriptions and Redemptions" section, however, we may do so in the future, should the shares begin to trade at a premium to the most recently reported NAV.

Obviously I have no real sway in your decision making, and it's your fund so you are going to do what you think is best. However, given that you sold out  (less than) a day and a half, I think that one more round of funding would benefit everyone and would sell out relatively easily. You double your initial capital, and that in turn benefits investors. Just food for thought, good luck!

[DrGregMulhauser]

...given that you sold out  (less than) a day and a half, I think that one more round of funding would benefit everyone and would sell out relatively easily. You double your initial capital, and that in turn benefits investors. Just food for thought, good luck!

I appreciate your feedback, and you may be right that another round would find participants relatively quickly. For the time being, though, we're going to press ahead with deploying the capital, and we'll see how things look again in roughly one month's time. We can always release a further tranche down the road if there is demand; there's no hurry.