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MtRev (OP)
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July 07, 2011, 02:37:16 PM
Last edit: July 07, 2011, 03:08:40 PM by MtRev |
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Republican Presidential candidate Michele Bachmann quoted "Literally, if we took away the minimum wage-if conceivably it was gone-we could potentially virtually wipe out unemployment completely because we would be able to offer jobs at whatever level."
We hear about and see in our own personal lives where people who once high paying and respectable jobs are now working in at fast food restaurants and retail clothing stores.
I do like having a minimum wage, since it helps protect the lower income class. However, considering how the economy is now and seeing many jobs being offered offshore, removing the min. wage law may actually help keep jobs within the states.
And wasn't one of the top causes of The Great Depression had to do with Herbert Hoover keeping wages from decreasing which ultimately lead to extremely high unemployment rate?
What are your thoughts on this?
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ascent
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July 07, 2011, 04:55:57 PM |
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It sounds like you're saying that a reduction or elimination of the minimum wage is what is keeping skilled workers unemployed. Last time I checked, skilled workers who are typically paid anywhere between $20 and $100 an hour are not affected by the minimum wage.
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MtRev (OP)
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July 07, 2011, 05:25:47 PM |
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I guess I should had been more clear. If the more 'skilled' workers applied for a job which normally people with GED would apply for, who would you hire? One with a degree or a GED? Now the only way they would get hired is if they where paid less then the minimum, but mainly, it may help bring back business that has been sent overseas.
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NghtRppr
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July 07, 2011, 05:51:50 PM |
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There's two reasons we should get rid of minimum wage. One is moral, the other is economic.
Moral:
If two consenting adults want to have sex, beat each other with whips or pour candle wax on each other, that's their business. If it's a voluntary act between two consenting adults, we should allow it to happen and no third parties have the right to interfere with them. This applies to minimum wage too. If one person wants to pay another person less than minimum wage, that's between them and we have no right to interfere as long as it's voluntary.
Economic:
Let's say that all I can do is make widgets. I can make 1 widget per hour and these widgets can be sold for $5. Therefore, my labor is worth $5 an hour. What happens when there's a law that says I can't be paid less than $7 an hour? I can't get a job. No one is going to hire me and take a loss of $2 an hour. Minimum wage laws aren't going to raise my wages. Minimum wage laws are going to keep me unemployed. If I want to work for $5 an hour and I'm forced by law not to then the law is making me worse off because I preferred to work rather than get nothing, or welfare. A family of three on welfare receives the equivalent of about a $3 an hour job. I could earn more money and be a productive member of society without minimum wage laws.
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im3w1l
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July 07, 2011, 10:35:22 PM |
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bitcoin2cash:
You are ignoring the externalities. I don't want to hear you whipping your wife all night long. I want to sleep. Likewise, I don't want people doing my job for less since it puts me out of business. You may say tough shit, but the harm to me is very real.
On the economic side, remember that cartels make for higher prices than a free market. Why? The price of maximum profitability is higher than the equilibrium price. Likewise: the total amount of wages paid out is probably higher with min wage than without.
What ought to be done is to encourage people to become apprentices / study so that they become so attractive that they are worth more than min wage.
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MtRev (OP)
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July 08, 2011, 12:43:12 AM |
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What ought to be done is to encourage people to become apprentices / study so that they become so attractive that they are worth more than min wage.
The problem is the economy is bad, even people who has master degrees are working in min wage jobs right now. Many employers are not able to hire more employees and had to dissolve their company due to the fact that they are paying out more then money coming in. |
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MoonShadow
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July 08, 2011, 12:52:49 AM |
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What are your thoughts on this?
I'm opposed to the minimum wage, but in reality repealing it would have almost zero effect. There are relatively few minimum wage jobs as it is, as most unskilled jobs pay more. Most of the unemployed are unemployed because they have a certain skillset, and will chose to remain on unemployment insurance payments so long as they last rather than take a lower wage job. If we were to repeal both the minimum wage laws and restrict or repeal unemployment insurance, there might be some measurable effects. But the truth of the matter is that most of the unemployed can find minimum wage work, but won't because they are accustomed to a higher wage and better working conditions than a minimum wage job. |
"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."
- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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Anonymous
Guest
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July 08, 2011, 12:58:27 AM |
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Well, it's a matter of property rights. I should be able to sell my labor for less than $7 an hour if I want to. It's my body, damn it.
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NghtRppr
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July 08, 2011, 03:17:01 AM |
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I don't want people doing my job for less since it puts me out of business. Right and as a business owner I would like to outlaw competition so I can charge whatever I want. |
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MoonShadow
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July 08, 2011, 04:51:07 AM |
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Well, it's a matter of property rights. I should be able to sell my labor for less than $7 an hour if I want to. It's my body, damn it.
Actually, you can. Minimum wage laws have exceptions. |
"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."
- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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myrkul
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July 08, 2011, 05:00:28 AM |
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Well, it's a matter of property rights. I should be able to sell my labor for less than $7 an hour if I want to. It's my body, damn it.
Actually, you can. Minimum wage laws have exceptions. Independent contractor baby. You're not an employee, so the laws don't apply. |
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Babylon
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July 08, 2011, 05:01:40 AM |
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I guess I should had been more clear. If the more 'skilled' workers applied for a job which normally people with GED would apply for, who would you hire? One with a degree or a GED? Now the only way they would get hired is if they where paid less then the minimum, but mainly, it may help bring back business that has been sent overseas.
The one with the GED, the one with the degree will leave as soon as a better job becomes available. The one with the GED will not. |
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MtRev (OP)
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July 08, 2011, 05:22:58 AM |
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But the key phrase is when "better job becomes available".. . I mean how is this going to happen? What's needs to be done? I thought Bachmann might have the right idea by killing min wage, it just might help create new jobs. If min wages were dropped, maybe even the prices of consumer products would drop as well which would ultimately keep money circling instead of stashed away in piggy bank. It just seems if we keep things the way they are, it's just a matter of time before we have another depression.
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myrkul
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July 08, 2011, 05:32:14 AM |
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But the key phrase is when "better job becomes available".. . I mean how is this going to happen? What's needs to be done? I thought Bachmann might have the right idea by killing min wage, it just might help create new jobs. If min wages were dropped, maybe even the prices of consumer products would drop as well which would ultimately keep money circling instead of stashed away in piggy bank. It just seems if we keep things the way they are, it's just a matter of time before we have another depression.
Another? |
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MtRev (OP)
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July 08, 2011, 06:27:51 AM |
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I don't think this is considering one now is it?
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myrkul
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July 08, 2011, 06:32:30 AM |
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I don't think this is considering one now is it?
Checked the unemployment figures lately? |
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J180
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July 08, 2011, 10:05:17 PM |
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I guess I should had been more clear. If the more 'skilled' workers applied for a job which normally people with GED would apply for, who would you hire? One with a degree or a GED? Now the only way they would get hired is if they where paid less then the minimum, but mainly, it may help bring back business that has been sent overseas.
The one with the GED, the one with the degree will leave as soon as a better job becomes available. The one with the GED will not. I heard of people even lieing about their degree (downgrading it) on their resume for that very reason. |
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Fakeman
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July 09, 2011, 03:13:55 AM |
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Where I live, minimum wage mostly only applies when you're actually working for an hourly rate. I've done piecework jobs where you can make less than minimum if you don't work efficiently and it's all above board. Potentially I guess you can make less than minimum wage at a salaried job as well depending on how many hours you put in. And then there's the independent contractor thing too.
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16wEsax3GGvJmjiXCMQUWeHdgyDG5DXa2W
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im3w1l
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July 10, 2011, 02:17:25 PM |
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Right and as a business owner I would like to outlaw competition so I can charge whatever I want.
I'm not making the argument that underbidding is always wrong. I'm just making the argument that it is not always right, by claiming that the libertarianist argument that if two people want to make a deal without externalities then the rest of the world should GTFO, is not applicable, since there are externalities. Personally, I think that the interests of the negotiating parties should be weighted carefully against the interests of the third parties, and that the current trade offs (min wage, but monopoly illegal) are well thought out. |
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NghtRppr
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July 10, 2011, 06:33:13 PM |
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I'm just making the argument that it is not always right, by claiming that the libertarianist argument that if two people want to make a deal without externalities then the rest of the world should GTFO, is not applicable, since there are externalities. In this case, externalities are irrelevant. You only have the right not to be negatively affected when it's damaging you or your property physically. You don't have the right to a liveable wage. |
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