The very sad truth about Bitcoin : It might die to gambling

[Kouye]

I'm not a bitcoin elder, but I've done my share of reading back to catch up.
And among all the threats bitcoin faces, one struck me as the most dangerous:

Gambling.

Remember, limited amount of coin.
Each day, just-die (sp?) and MANY other clones are racking up coins. And a lot of those.
Disguised adds like this so-called news are hurting bitcoin bigway.

People running those gambling sites obviously don't wan't bitcoin to succeed. They just wanna get rich while it lasts.

Thus, they probably throw the coins back to get fiat, but... What if one decided not to ?

And what if we reach the goal to make banks&fiat vanish and bitcoin becomes the main currency?
I know this won't happen, but I also fear this CANNOT happen, because of the gambling sites.

TLDR;
A gambling business can't lose as much wealth as the other successful ones earn.
Bitcoin won't inflate.
Bitcoin will end up being held by gambling businesses.

I really hope someone proves me wrong, even if the process of doing so includes insults.

[TippingPoint]

I can assuage your fears with two words.

Silk Road

[01BTC10]

So this is the reason why the US government massively print fiat money so it doesn't all end in Las Vegas or Atlantic City?

[Birdy]

Bitcoin will end up being held by gambling businesses.

How is making a ton of Bitcoins from gambling business different from someone aquiring them with other business models?
You have some very Bitcoin-rich persons then, well that's no news. Everybody who got in early or just had enough fiat to buy a lot of Bitcoins already is that.

Furthermore everyone can invest in just-dice to be the house and the low house edge will put pressure on all other gambling sites, so they have to lower their profits. I think casinos in Las Vegas or state lotteries are making more .

[Mike Christ]

What's the point of making money and never spending it?

[Birdy]

What's the point of making money and never spending it?

Oh, you cannot do that with Bitcoins xD
Maybe with Casascius Coins

[empoweoqwj]

I'm not a bitcoin elder, but I've done my share of reading back to catch up.
And among all the threats bitcoin faces, one struck me as the most dangerous:

Gambling.

Remember, limited amount of coin.
Each day, just-die (sp?) and MANY other clones are racking up coins. And a lot of those.
Disguised adds like this so-called news are hurting bitcoin bigway.

People running those gambling sites obviously don't wan't bitcoin to succeed. They just wanna get rich while it lasts.

Thus, they probably throw the coins back to get fiat, but... What if one decided not to ?

And what if we reach the goal to make banks&fiat vanish and bitcoin becomes the main currency?
I know this won't happen, but I also fear this CANNOT happen, because of the gambling sites.

TLDR;
A gambling business can't lose as much wealth as the other successful ones earn.
Bitcoin won't inflate.
Bitcoin will end up being held by gambling businesses.

I really hope someone proves me wrong, even if the process of doing so includes insults.

You are assuming that more than a small minority of bitcoin holders are idiotic enough to give their coins away to casinos. Unless bitcoin holders are severely below the average intelligence level of the general population, this is clearly not going to be the case.

Fools and their bitcoins are easily parted. I'm not a fool. Are you?

[Chet]

Yet another xxxxx will kill bitcoin.
whats next pr0n?

[Kouye]

What's the point of making money and never spending it?

Care to show me a report stating gambling business in its whole is at a loss today, please ?
That would really be a releif.

[crumbs]

I know i'm missing something, but what makes gambling different from any other business, as far as bitcoin is concerned?  What makes gambling unique, in your opinion?

[Kouye]

I know i'm missing something, but what makes gambling different from any other business, as far as bitcoin is concerned?  What makes gambling unique, in your opinion?

That's an easy one.

Gambling businesses are earning wealth, globally.
Want proof ? Check for government lotteries, as a starter?

[Elwar]

What a great plan that all of these gambling companies have.

1. Start gambling site.
2. Hoard all of your earnings, pay for everything out of pocket.
3.
4. Profit!

[Kouye]

What a great plan that all of these gambling companies have.

1. Start gambling site.
2. Hoard all of your earnings, pay for everything out of pocket.
3.
4. Profit!

They don't have to hoard all their earnings, they just have to spend the bare mininum to keep on operating.

Let me try again:
1 - Bitcoins have a limited supply
2 - Gambling sites are globally earning more bitcoins than they have to spend to keep their business on
3 - Gambling sites will end up owning a lot of bitcoins, if we don't prevent this

The same thing is happening with fiat today.
Or can you just give me an example of government lottery which has a negative result ?

[crumbs]

I know i'm missing something, but what makes gambling different from any other business, as far as bitcoin is concerned?  What makes gambling unique, in your opinion?

That's an easy one.

Gambling businesses are earning wealth, globally.
Want proof ? Check for government lotteries, as a starter?

Are you saying that other businesses are just breaking even at best?  The point of most businesses is to ... earn wealth?

[crumbs]

...
Let me try again:
1 - Bitcoins have a limited supply
2 - Gambling sites are globally earning more bitcoins than they have to spend to keep their business on
3 - Gambling sites will end up owning a lot of bitcoins, if we don't prevent this

The same thing is happening with fiat today.
Or can you just give me an example of government lottery which has a negative result ?

1.  Bitcoins are a limited supply.
2. Gambling sites All successful businesses are globally earning more bitcoins than they have to spend to keep their business on.
3.  Gambling sites All successful businesses will end up owning a lot of bitcoins, if we don't prevent this.
 

[Kouye]

Are you saying that other businesses are just breaking even at best?  The point of most businesses is to ... earn wealth?

No. I'm saying that setting up a gambling business is way easier, and much safer, compared to other useful businesses.

There is no way denying sd and jd are racking in A LOT of bitcoins, today.
I'd be -really- interested in a list of BTC businesses that can match their volumes.

[Elwar]

2 - Gambling sites are globally earning more bitcoins than they have to spend to keep their business on

When you earn more money than you spend, that is called profit.

Where do company profits usually go?

A. Paid to investors
B. Invest back in the business
C. All of the above

[Birdy]

Are you saying that other businesses are just breaking even at best?  The point of most businesses is to ... earn wealth?

No. I'm saying that setting up a gambling business is way easier, and much safer, compared to other useful businesses.

There is no way denying sd and jd are racking in A LOT of bitcoins, today.
I'd be -really- interested in a list of BTC businesses that can match their volumes.

Ok, let's assume gambling business hoards lots and lots of Bitcoins, why exactly will Bitcoin die then?
As far as I know it will gain traction if the price skyrockets.

[Razick]

I'm not a bitcoin elder, but I've done my share of reading back to catch up.
And among all the threats bitcoin faces, one struck me as the most dangerous:

Gambling.

Remember, limited amount of coin.
Each day, just-die (sp?) and MANY other clones are racking up coins. And a lot of those.
Disguised adds like this so-called news are hurting bitcoin bigway.

People running those gambling sites obviously don't wan't bitcoin to succeed. They just wanna get rich while it lasts.

Thus, they probably throw the coins back to get fiat, but... What if one decided not to ?

And what if we reach the goal to make banks&fiat vanish and bitcoin becomes the main currency?
I know this won't happen, but I also fear this CANNOT happen, because of the gambling sites.

TLDR;
A gambling business can't lose as much wealth as the other successful ones earn.
Bitcoin won't inflate.
Bitcoin will end up being held by gambling businesses.

I really hope someone proves me wrong, even if the process of doing so includes insults.

I think the issue of hording has been addressed. I have to disagree that this is a problem, in fact, the way I see it, gambling transfers wealth from fools to (on average) people who are more responsible. I'm not saying that gambling automatically makes you a fool by the way, there is nothing wrong with wasting a few bucks for the chance of winning, but in the end, gamblers always lose in the long run.

[Razick]

...
Let me try again:
1 - Bitcoins have a limited supply
2 - Gambling sites are globally earning more bitcoins than they have to spend to keep their business on
3 - Gambling sites will end up owning a lot of bitcoins, if we don't prevent this

The same thing is happening with fiat today.
Or can you just give me an example of government lottery which has a negative result ?

1.  Bitcoins are a limited supply.
2. Gambling sites All successful businesses are globally earning more bitcoins than they have to spend to keep their business on.
3.  Gambling sites All successful businesses will end up owning a lot of bitcoins, if we don't prevent this.
 

4. That's how business works, and it is a good thing.

[Elwar]

And again, a full country could have all of their capital in 1 Bitcoin and still be fine.

[crumbs]

Are you saying that other businesses are just breaking even at best?  The point of most businesses is to ... earn wealth?

No. I'm saying that setting up a gambling business is way easier, and much safer, compared to other useful businesses.

There is no way denying sd and jd are racking in A LOT of bitcoins, today.
I'd be -really- interested in a list of BTC businesses that can match their volumes.

I'm not defending gambling, simply pointing out that as businesses go, gambling is unexceptional, at least qualitatively.  They all try to make the most money while risking the least.  Online gambling sites have expenses too.

[crumbs]

...
Let me try again:
1 - Bitcoins have a limited supply
2 - Gambling sites are globally earning more bitcoins than they have to spend to keep their business on
3 - Gambling sites will end up owning a lot of bitcoins, if we don't prevent this

The same thing is happening with fiat today.
Or can you just give me an example of government lottery which has a negative result ?

1.  Bitcoins are a limited supply.
2. Gambling sites All successful businesses are globally earning more bitcoins than they have to spend to keep their business on.
3.  Gambling sites All successful businesses will end up owning a lot of bitcoins, if we don't prevent this.
 

4. That's how business works, and it is a good thing.

Err... Yep, that's my point exactly.

[crumbs]

And again, a full country could have all of their capital in 1 Bitcoin and still be fine.

As long as it's fine with being *bought* for one bitcoin

[Elwar]

And again, a full country could have all of their capital in 1 Bitcoin and still be fine.

As long as it's fine with being *bought* for one bitcoin

Just like how the US is fine with being *bought* for 18 trillion dollars?

Where does buying a country come into play?

[crumbs]

And again, a full country could have all of their capital in 1 Bitcoin and still be fine.

As long as it's fine with being *bought* for one bitcoin

Just like how the US is fine with being *bought* for 18 trillion dollars?

Where does buying a country come into play?

That amount of currency does not exist outside of US.  To make things simple, let me point out that when a country's entire currency consists of a single bitcoin, and i have *two* bitcoins, that country shouldn't be traded with

Edit:  You do understand that i could toss that country's economy into a tailspin by simply showing them my two bitcoins *exist,* right? 

[Littleshop]

The more uses of Bitcoin and the more Bitcoins moving the more valuable they become.  If online poker was allowed in the USA and Bitcoin was used for half the transactions it would probably double Bitcoins current market cap. 

[justusranvier]

This is the third "Bitcoin is doomed" story I've seen today.

I think some people just want to buy in cheaper.

[Razick]

...
Let me try again:
1 - Bitcoins have a limited supply
2 - Gambling sites are globally earning more bitcoins than they have to spend to keep their business on
3 - Gambling sites will end up owning a lot of bitcoins, if we don't prevent this

The same thing is happening with fiat today.
Or can you just give me an example of government lottery which has a negative result ?

1.  Bitcoins are a limited supply.
2. Gambling sites All successful businesses are globally earning more bitcoins than they have to spend to keep their business on.
3.  Gambling sites All successful businesses will end up owning a lot of bitcoins, if we don't prevent this.
 

4. That's how business works, and it is a good thing.

Err... Yep, that's my point exactly.

I thought so, my reply was mainly for the Op.

[Razick]

And again, a full country could have all of their capital in 1 Bitcoin and still be fine.

As long as it's fine with being *bought* for one bitcoin

Just like how the US is fine with being *bought* for 18 trillion dollars?

Where does buying a country come into play?

That amount of currency does not exist outside of US.  To make things simple, let me point out that when a country's entire currency consists of a single bitcoin, and i have *two* bitcoins, that country shouldn't be traded with

Edit:  You do understand that i could toss that country's economy into a tailspin by simply showing them my two bitcoins *exist,* right? 

Perhaps, but that's assuming that you are extremely strange, and don't just spend your 2 BTC when they are worth $1,000,000,000 each, which they would be before that point.

Also, while the inflation would be tragic... I don't think the effect would be as bad as you think: the U.S. has quadrupled the money supply since 2,000. You could also use it in a way where there would be at least short term benefits.

[crumbs]

And again, a full country could have all of their capital in 1 Bitcoin and still be fine.

As long as it's fine with being *bought* for one bitcoin

Just like how the US is fine with being *bought* for 18 trillion dollars?

Where does buying a country come into play?

That amount of currency does not exist outside of US.  To make things simple, let me point out that when a country's entire currency consists of a single bitcoin, and i have *two* bitcoins, that country shouldn't be traded with

Edit:  You do understand that i could toss that country's economy into a tailspin by simply showing them my two bitcoins *exist,* right?  

Perhaps, but that's assuming that you are extremely strange, and don't just spend your 2 BTC when they are worth $1,000,000,000 each, which they would be before that point.

Also, while the inflation would be tragic... I don't think the effect would be as bad as you think: the U.S. has quadrupled the money supply since 2,000. You could also use it in a way where there would be at least short term benefits.

I should have been clearer:  The post i was responding to suggested that a single bitcoin would suffice as the sum total of a country's currency (presumably because one bitcoin is divisible enough for everyone to trade in fractions).  I tried to point out that it would be impossible for the simple reason that there's another 10+ million BTC, just like the one used by the unfortunate country, out in the wild.  If that country valued that single bitcoin at, let's say, $200 billion (the printed total of fiat the country swapped for the bitcoin), then the other bitcoins would also be valued the same ($200 billion *each*).  This, you must agree, is nonsense, unless 1 bitcoin was worth that much to begin with.  

As things stand right now, with 1BTC = $105 (had to look up at the tab), trying to convert *a single country's* monetary system to use *a single bitcoin* is functionally equivalent to reducing all the fiat within that country to $105, while the rest of the world is still flooded with dollars.  Something like that.  

[BittBurger]

I can assuage your

Can someone assauge me please?

-Burger-

[Stephen Gornick]

Bitcoin will end up being held by gambling businesses.

And then?

[johnyj]

Actually the gambling enterprises are hiring lots of people now, due to that most of rich people have nothing to do but gambling, that is a very profitable business in today's system where a few people holds lots of wealth but have no good way to consume them

[Elwar]

And again, a full country could have all of their capital in 1 Bitcoin and still be fine.

As long as it's fine with being *bought* for one bitcoin

Just like how the US is fine with being *bought* for 18 trillion dollars?

Where does buying a country come into play?

That amount of currency does not exist outside of US.  To make things simple, let me point out that when a country's entire currency consists of a single bitcoin, and i have *two* bitcoins, that country shouldn't be traded with

Edit:  You do understand that i could toss that country's economy into a tailspin by simply showing them my two bitcoins *exist,* right?  

Perhaps, but that's assuming that you are extremely strange, and don't just spend your 2 BTC when they are worth $1,000,000,000 each, which they would be before that point.

Also, while the inflation would be tragic... I don't think the effect would be as bad as you think: the U.S. has quadrupled the money supply since 2,000. You could also use it in a way where there would be at least short term benefits.

I should have been clearer:  The post i was responding to suggested that a single bitcoin would suffice as the sum total of a country's currency (presumably because one bitcoin is divisible enough for everyone to trade in fractions).  I tried to point out that it would be impossible for the simple reason that there's another 10+ million BTC, just like the one used by the unfortunate country, out in the wild.  If that country valued that single bitcoin at, let's say, $200 billion (the printed total of fiat the country swapped for the bitcoin), then the other bitcoins would also be valued the same ($200 billion *each*).  This, you must agree, is nonsense, unless 1 bitcoin was worth that much to begin with.  

As things stand right now, with 1BTC = $105 (had to look up at the tab), trying to convert *a single country's* monetary system to use *a single bitcoin* is functionally equivalent to reducing all the fiat within that country to $105, while the rest of the world is still flooded with dollars.  Something like that.  

It is a simple explaination to those who believe that hoarders will cause the end of Bitcoin ("It might die to gambling"). They speak as if there will not be enough bitcoins left over because of all of the hoarders.

But one does not need millions in circulation as the 1 BTC for a country's economy highlights.

And by saying that one would simply just cash out your hoarded bitcoins if it reaches that high of a price kills the whole hoarding killing Bitcoin argument.

[crumbs]

...I should have been clearer:  The post i was responding to suggested that a single bitcoin would suffice as the sum total of a country's currency (presumably because one bitcoin is divisible enough for everyone to trade in fractions).  I tried to point out that it would be impossible for the simple reason that there's another 10+ million BTC, just like the one used by the unfortunate country, out in the wild.  If that country valued that single bitcoin at, let's say, $200 billion (the printed total of fiat the country swapped for the bitcoin), then the other bitcoins would also be valued the same ($200 billion *each*).  This, you must agree, is nonsense, unless 1 bitcoin was worth that much to begin with.  

As things stand right now, with 1BTC = $105 (had to look up at the tab), trying to convert *a single country's* monetary system to use *a single bitcoin* is functionally equivalent to reducing all the fiat within that country to $105, while the rest of the world is still flooded with dollars.  Something like that.  

It is a simple explaination to those who believe that hoarders will cause the end of Bitcoin ("It might die to gambling"). They speak as if there will not be enough bitcoins left over because of all of the hoarders.

But one does not need millions in circulation as the 1 BTC for a country's economy highlights.

And by saying that one would simply just cash out your hoarded bitcoins if it reaches that high of a price kills the whole hoarding killing Bitcoin argument.

Stop it.  The only thing the "1 BTC for a country economy" argument highlights is the fact that it's an absurd argument.  Unless that country's economy is worth just $105 at today's rates.  Reread my reply.  

If that's still not clear, i'll use your example: "Just like how the US is fine with being *bought* for 18 trillion dollars?"

1.  Imagine that trillion dollars being swapped for a single bitcoin.
2.  Now that bitcoin is worth 18 trillion dollars, according to you.
3.  There are other bitcoins in the world, more than 10 million of them, each one is now worth 18 billion dollars?  
4.  ? ? ?  Why not?


Edit:  The fundamental problem that exists for a country wishing to adopt bitcoin is the very problem i've outlined above.  It's theoretically impossible for a country to adopt a currency like bitcoin *unless its extant value is substantially higher than the value of fiat it must replace.*  Even when the country is willing to do everything short of collapsing its economy to do so. 

[HeRetiK]

For all we know gambling could actually be one of the factors pushing Bitcoin. Like porn pushed the VCR and silk road pushed... well, Bitcoin.

[WinVery.com]

Blather

[Kouye]

And then?

Really ? I won't feed you, sorry. Try another thread.

@all, I am just concerned by the following observations:

- Gambling has become trivial using bitcoins, compared to what it used to be with fiat
- Gambling addicts are all over - Just check the reports on currently operating gambling sites
- Gambling operating sites, as a whole, gain wealth over time, at a faster pace than any other business

I will let this get buried, for now, but I really hope I won't have to bump it when gambling services own 50% of the bitcoins.
Just quit gambling, for your own sake.

[01BTC10]

Only in the US (mostly) it's hard to gamble online with fiat. Here in Canada it's trivial and in Europe too. It's not like everyone is going to gamble all what they have because they can... Compulsive gamblers are a minority like alcoholics.

[Raize]

And then?

Really ? I won't feed you, sorry. Try another thread.

Well, I think Stephen's point is actually a pertinent one. You do realize that there was a period of 1 year or more where Bitcoin miners basically owned 100% of Bitcoin. You can't just say, "X will own X% of Bitcoin" and expect us to see that as "wrong" or "the end of Bitcoin".

Econ 101 tells us that normal supply and demand is going to change over time. As Bitcoin is held more and more by hoarders, it's value increases such that the hoarders will eventually decide it's no longer time to hoard anymore. Of course, they should sell slowly in order to benefit from the increased prices, lest they end up losing value by selling too much. They also have to worry about being compromised and losing BTC that way.

I don't want you think you're being trolled. Just because there are a lot of gamblers out there does not mean everyone gambles. I don't, for example. I have to believe there's actually a large number of Bitcoiners that have never sent a dime to Satoshi dice or any other gambling outfit.

[EmperorBob]

Where do company profits usually go?

A. Paid to investors
B. Invest back in the business
C. All of the above

^^ This  ^^

Unless the shareholders of bitcoin gambling companies are completely nuts, they'll want to be able to do something with the money the company earned. Whether that's converting to fiat, or making purchases, (or saving it, but that's no different than any other source of revenue). The company might also invest it to grow its future profits (but that involves spending the money).
This isn't some theoretical statement we're making. Satoshi Dice was paying monthly dividends before it got bought out.
Bitcoin is very much like cash. No company would simply grow their cash reserves forever, not investing it or passing it on to shareholders. That would be entirely wasteful and irrational.

[stslimited]

And again, a full country could have all of their capital in 1 Bitcoin and still be fine.

As long as it's fine with being *bought* for one bitcoin

Just like how the US is fine with being *bought* for 18 trillion dollars?

Where does buying a country come into play?

that would just clear the US' debt, save for pension funds which are much greater

[San1ty]

Wow, This thread... Another beauty . The good news OP is that you have nothing to worry about:

- Every human being with mediocre intelligence knows gambling is rigged and designed to take your money.
- Casinos are living off the stupid (and those that enjoy throwing money away). I'll make an assumption here that the average bitcoin user is smarter then the average human being.
- If fools like to be parted from their bitcoins it's their issue, but this isn't a threat to bitcoin.

[hlynur]

Wow, This thread... Another beauty . The good news OP is that you have nothing to worry about:

- Every human being with mediocre intelligence knows gambling is rigged and designed to take your money.
- Casinos are living off the stupid (and those that enjoy throwing money away). I'll make an assumption here that the average bitcoin user is smarter then the average human being.
- If fools like to be parted from their bitcoins it's their issue, but this isn't a threat to bitcoin.

+1
i can't help but to see the situation sometimes like a strangely distorted picture of the times of the good old gold rush.
gambling, prostitution and drugdealing were one of the first businesses that opened their doors
when some guys started digging a hole somewhere.
today we see this with again gambling, SR and porn???. (kay i never heard of any porn relation until now. perhaps the recent pedo-related news with freedom-hosting, as sad as that is  )

as a new and unregulated store of value this type of business is a logical first step towards adaption into human online economy.
it's filling the niches and demands of the modern online market, which also is kind of represented by parts of the blackmarket.
personally it never came to my head to start gambling as i see btc as an investment.
trading already feels enough like a gamble, no point in overstretching the risks
i'm sure money-laundering and tax evasion will become a big issue in the next years when this train gets more pace.
that's the problem, every coin has two sides. it's like the internet all over again. (although it feels like we're reaching the Middle Ages of the digital era right now with all the news lately)

[Kouye]

Well, I think Stephen's point is actually a pertinent one. You do realize that there was a period of 1 year or more where Bitcoin miners basically owned 100% of Bitcoin. You can't just say, "X will own X% of Bitcoin" and expect us to see that as "wrong" or "the end of Bitcoin".

Econ 101 tells us that normal supply and demand is going to change over time. As Bitcoin is held more and more by hoarders, it's value increases such that the hoarders will eventually decide it's no longer time to hoard anymore. Of course, they should sell slowly in order to benefit from the increased prices, lest they end up losing value by selling too much. They also have to worry about being compromised and losing BTC that way.

I don't want you think you're being trolled. Just because there are a lot of gamblers out there does not mean everyone gambles. I don't, for example. I have to believe there's actually a large number of Bitcoiners that have never sent a dime to Satoshi dice or any other gambling outfit.

Thanks for that very sensitive post.

I still cannot calm this intuition that more and more people are relying on gambling as a last resort.
You know, gambling used to be forbidden and considered as a pure scam in france, a couple centuries ago, until king's chest went dry and some advisor helped initiating national lottery - I'm talking about france cause I'm living there (hence the dubious english).

Today it's become a growing source of government income.

Since hoarding is happening, as we speak (it takes a looooooot of poor guys to make a rich one, and rich people global cake slice is growing),
Since gambling is so easy with bitcoin, and so tempting for uneducated people,
Since nobody could point me to any bitcoin business moving around as many coins as SD or JD are today(*),
Since there is a limited amount of coins

I am still... Sad.

(*) I'm talking about bitcoin business. Not Fiat<=>bitcoin exchanges, which can't be candidates as in the future I'm talking about, fiat and banks are long buried.

[001sonkit]

If you mean just-di(c)e. their profit are mostly gone to all of us small investors. Those coins are ust owned by another guy. And seriously. Jd is already good enough to let the coins circulate. Some whale loses their coins. Those coins goes profit to all little investors.

Think about how the coins go now bro.

[EscrowBTC]

Indeed, gambling brings a lot of money.

[worldinacoin]

My main worry for Bitcoin will be too many gambling sites and weed sites using Bitcoin, causing Bitcoin to be associated with such and giving the authorities an easy excuse to ban Bitcoin.

[Mike Christ]

What's the point of making money and never spending it?

Care to show me a report stating gambling business in its whole is at a loss today, please ?
That would really be a releif.

I couldn't say; I don't know if there is one.  My only point is, if I were a gajillionaire, I'd rather have a billion things worth a gajillion than live as if I were impoverished.  If I have those billions of things, that means I put my gajillion straight back into the economy.  In a capitalistic world, I would've reinvested that cash into my gambling business, which would've paid for a lot of people to do a lot of different things; perhaps I own a real casino and needed more craps tables and slot machines and what have you.  Someone, paid, had to make those things for me to have.

[-Mk23-]

Can I borrow a btc. I spent all my coins on gambling lessons....

[onecent]

this topic is not worth arguing simply because gambling is part of the economy and part of the currency spending behavior, well i am arguing  ...just look at a bigger picture and you can figure it all out.

[Dabs]

There's that bitcoinstore.com that is supposed to do $800,000 in sales every quarter. And it's not fair if you don't count exchanges because that's how many bitcoins are bought and/or sold. There are like at least 10 major bitcoin exchanges starting with Mt. Gox.

The volume on gambling sites can also be misleading because that's the same coin being regurgitated over and over as people bet again and again, the same coins they used at the start of playing.

There are about 11 million coins now. Maybe 5 million of them move around on a regular basis. 40,000 coins for one or two gambling sites isn't big compared to all the rest.

SD this month (after it's sale) is showing negative right now. Just look at it's own analysis thread.

[RhoDelta]

There are many folks who want to gamble but live in areas where it is not legal. Bitcoin adoption for gaming is actually very beneficial to the btc community since it tends to be a hard habit to break. More people needing to buy coins to gamble with =  more bitcoin buyers & higher price per coin.

[J603]

There's that bitcoinstore.com that is supposed to do $800,000 in sales every quarter. And it's not fair if you don't count exchanges because that's how many bitcoins are bought and/or sold. There are like at least 10 major bitcoin exchanges starting with Mt. Gox.

The volume on gambling sites can also be misleading because that's the same coin being regurgitated over and over as people bet again and again, the same coins they used at the start of playing.

There are about 11 million coins now. Maybe 5 million of them move around on a regular basis. 40,000 coins for one or two gambling sites isn't big compared to all the rest.

SD this month (after it's sale) is showing negative right now. Just look at it's own analysis thread.

$800,000 every quarter? That means that SR sees more in a month than that site in a quarter (1.22 million pounds).

Truly we have a marijuana based economy, so the casinos have no chance.

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-02/01/silk-road-crackdown


On a side note: If I have 4 bitcoins currently (and I'm buying more), does that mean that some day I'll have 4/21000000 of the entire economy's wealth? What about people who have large amounts? At that amount of money I could buy a country some day if bitcoin becomes a huge world currency.

[Hfleer]

If you mean just-di(c)e. their profit are mostly gone to all of us small investors. Those coins are ust owned by another guy. And seriously. Jd is already good enough to let the coins circulate. Some whale loses their coins. Those coins goes profit to all little investors.

Think about how the coins go now bro.

Right now I think a few big investors have majority of the stake, so don't count them out.  Then there's some funds with a stake also.

[Cluster2k]

There are three things that can kill bitcoin: narcotics trade, underage porn, and funding terrorism.  Any one of these three can be used by major governments around the world to declare the trade in bitcoins illegal.  That would automatically scare off any bank from converting bitcoins to money and back again.  Banks that continue to facilitate trade would be locked out of the international money markets.  It wouldn't be worth supporting a niche market like bitcoin.

I don't think gambling is a threat however.  Site operators are unlikely to hoard everything they earn simply because there needs to be trade and a velocity of bitcoins being traded for them to be worth anything.  If a group locked up all 21 million bitcoins tomorrow they would become worthless overnight as everyone else moves to another trading platform.

[J603]

Besides, at the rate the world is going, eventually stuff like food and air may need to be bought and sold on the black market.

Yeah, that's why I've been hording air right now. My entire house is filled to the brim with it. I even filled my car with it, and I have a secret compartment within my lungs (don't tell anyone!)

[Hfleer]

Gambling seems to be one of it's main uses currently.  Since it's fast, easy to move, and anonymous what else could you expect.

[J603]

Besides, at the rate the world is going, eventually stuff like food and air may need to be bought and sold on the black market.

Yeah, that's why I've been hording air right now. My entire house is filled to the brim with it. I even filled my car with it, and I have a secret compartment within my lungs (don't tell anyone!)

I know, I'm so silly. Who in their right mind would pay for air?

That would be like paying for water. It just falls from the sky! Oceans, lakes, and streams are filled with it! Like 60% of my body is actually water.



Some people already pay for clean air, you say? Those crazy bastards.

http://www.air-purifier-ratings.org/index.html

Crazy indeed. I'm not going to waste my money on an air purifier.

[hlynur]

let's just wait until industry is finished with polluting air around us.
imo water industry is already perverted in many countries.
the most ironic thing is that nestlé even named one of their water brands "Pure Life"

http://www.worldcrunch.com/poisoning-well-nestl-accused-exploiting-water-supplies-bottled-brands/business-finance/poisoning-the-well-nestl-accused-of-exploiting-water-supplies-for-bottled-brands/c2s4503/
mentioned documentary (highly recommended): http://www.bottledlifefilm.com/index.php/the-film.html

edit: sorry for the off-topic posting

[Dabs]

There are three things that can kill bitcoin: narcotics trade, underage porn, and funding terrorism.

Cash, credit cards, wire transfers.

[heiska]

Actually, like it or not, bitcoin is currently so widely spread and "successful" because of all the gambling and drug marketplaces. If it wasn't for those things, the average Joe wouldn't have heard of bitcoins, let alone had any.

[Lethn]

Rest assured there are people who are working very noisily in the background on stuff that has nothing to do with drugs, gambling or mining hardware, you just have to look around a bit more .

[Kyle91]

the only known thing popular about bitcoins today are drugs and gambling. You never hear anything different. I honestly don't see the future of it ruling over real money. Many people today don't even know what bitcoin is. If i asked my teachers they wouldn't even know what the hell i'm talking about.

And lets say if bitcoin was entirely popularized than real life money, and more people knew about it. The only thing that would be known about it is drugs and gambling like i said before. So much that bitcoin would be probably banned, just my theory.

[TippingPoint]

the only known thing popular about bitcoins today are drugs and gambling. You never hear anything different. I honestly don't see the future of it ruling over real money. Many people today don't even know what bitcoin is. If i asked my teachers they wouldn't even know what the hell i'm talking about.

And lets say if bitcoin was entirely popularized than real life money, and more people knew about it. The only thing that would be known about it is drugs and gambling like i said before. So much that bitcoin would be probably banned, just my theory.

Who Uses Bitcoin?

Normal People, Family & Friends
People like you and your family use Bitcoin to transfer earned income and savings directly to their children, without government intervention.

Normal People, Whose Savings Are Being Destroyed By Inflation
People like you and your family use Bitcoin to to preserve their savings from inflated fiat currencies.

Normal People Making Small Purchases on the Internet
People like you and your family use Bitcoin to conveniently purchase individual songs and other intellectual property on the internet.

Businesses
Businesses use Bitcoin to avoid expensive chargebacks from dishonest credit card purchasers, and to lower the cost of doing business.

Refugees from Repressive Regimes
People trapped in corrupt jurisdictions use Bitcoin to protect what they have earned.

Philanthropists and Other Generous People
People who learn about genuine suffering use Bitcoin to eliminate the middle-man and send anonymous contributions instantly to wherever they can help.

Journalists and the Media
Journalists and the media use Bitcoin to provide incentives and protection to Whistleblowers.

Travelers
People who travel for business or pleasure use Bitcoin to reduce the risk of carrying cash or credit cards.

[Carlton Banks]

If i asked my teachers they wouldn't even know what the hell i'm talking about.

The best advice I ever got from a teacher was: you are your own most effective teacher. It's great, you can choose the topics, and the syllabus, and the marking scheme. What you choose will end up defining you, not what someone else wishes for you. Be original, it's more interesting all ways round.

[Ardivaba]

Okay, uhm, i didn't read all four pages here, but i think that one of the biggest problems for Bitcoin are upcoming gambling regulations that will follow now that Bitcoin has been declared as legal currency.

After regulations show up, and people will need to show their gambling license to host Bitcoin gambling sites, many of them will obviously have to close and thus, Bitcoin loses alot of liquidity (did i use that word correctly? My native language isn't English).

[J603]

Normal People, Family & Friends
People like you and your family use Bitcoin to transfer earned income and savings directly to their children, without government intervention.

Normal People, Whose Savings Are Being Destroyed By Inflation
People like you and your family use Bitcoin to to preserve their savings from inflated fiat currencies.

Except that BTC is tied to those inflated fiat currencies, and is far more volatile than any other currency. One day your savings will be worth 100,000 and the next they're worth 90,000. If you bought BTC when they were really high then you lost more than 50% of your wealth.

Normal People Making Small Purchases on the Internet
People like you and your family use Bitcoin to conveniently purchase individual songs and other intellectual property on the internet.

Waiting 3 days for a wire transfer, and then an hour for confirmations to clear is far from convenient. I'd say Itunes has this covered, if you're going to pay in the first place.

Businesses
Businesses use Bitcoin to avoid expensive chargebacks from dishonest credit card purchasers, and to lower the cost of doing business.

Not sure how the cost of running a bitcoin business is any cheaper than a fiat business.

Refugees from Repressive Regimes
People trapped in corrupt jurisdictions use Bitcoin to protect what they have earned.

Really? Do they just set up their desktop in the middle of the refugee camp?

Philanthropists and Other Generous People
People who learn about genuine suffering use Bitcoin to eliminate the middle-man and send anonymous contributions instantly to wherever they can help.

Which isn't a lot of places. As far as I know no medical charity organization accepts BTC. You won't be donating to red cross or MSF any time soon.

Journalists and the Media
Journalists and the media use Bitcoin to provide incentives and protection to Whistleblowers.

I don't know about this.

Travelers
People who travel for business or pleasure use Bitcoin to reduce the risk of carrying cash or credit cards.

How? Unless they have memorized their wallet they need some physical way to keep track of the address and private key.


Here's the real major groups that use BTC:

Investors

People use BTC as a commodity or stock, instead of a currency.

Drug Users

People who want the best strains of weed can purchase it anonymously and easily.

Gamblers

People who don't want their gambling activities to be public can also use BTC anonymously for transactions.

[crumbs]

...
Who Uses Bitcoin?

Normal People, Family & Friends
People like you and your family use Bitcoin to transfer earned income and savings directly to their children, without government intervention.

Tax cheats are not as common as you think.  If you know of someone who passed on earned income and/or savings to his children via bitcoin, you have some mighty unusual friends.

Normal People, Whose Savings Are Being Destroyed By Inflation
People like you and your family use Bitcoin to to preserve their savings from inflated fiat currencies.

Stop dragging my family into this.  Neither my family nor any of my close friends use bitcoin.  Investing in bitcoin to hedge inflation is simply nuts.  Have you tried getting your investment out of Gox lately?  I mean in $$$, stuff that my family could spend?

Normal People Making Small Purchases on the Internet
People like you and your family use Bitcoin to conveniently purchase individual songs and other intellectual property on the internet.

Certainly not me.  Who's selling songs & other intellectual property for bitcoin?  Are you double-sure it's not ripz & warez?  Please keep my family out of this, ffs.

Businesses
Businesses use Bitcoin to avoid expensive chargebacks from dishonest credit card purchasers, and to lower the cost of doing business.

Considering that a good deal of the bitcoin ventures prove to be scams, enough to warrant a subforum explicitly dedicated to scam accusations, i'm sure irreversibility of bitcoin transaction does indeed lower the cost of doing business.

Refugees from Repressive Regimes
People trapped in corrupt jurisdictions use Bitcoin to protect what they have earned.

What J603 said

Philanthropists and Other Generous People
People who learn about genuine suffering use Bitcoin to eliminate the middle-man and send anonymous contributions instantly to wherever they can help.

Most nonprofits specifically disassociate themselves from bitcoin when the subject comes up.  See Wikimedia.

Journalists and the Media
Journalists and the media use Bitcoin to provide incentives and protection to Whistleblowers.

Paying for information is yellow journalism at best.  Those accepting payments from journalists & the media are anything *but* whistleblowers.  Unless you're talking about the Judas Iscariot sort of whistleblower.

Travelers
People who travel for business or pleasure use Bitcoin to reduce the risk of carrying cash or credit cards.

Only exceptionally stupid and/or criminally insane travelers.  Finding a vendor of *anything* (who accepts bitcoin) is impossible.  Everywhere.

[polarhei]

...
Let me try again:
1 - Bitcoins have a limited supply
2 - Gambling sites are globally earning more bitcoins than they have to spend to keep their business on
3 - Gambling sites will end up owning a lot of bitcoins, if we don't prevent this

The same thing is happening with fiat today.
Or can you just give me an example of government lottery which has a negative result ?

1.  Bitcoins are a limited supply.
2. Gambling sites All successful businesses are globally earning more bitcoins than they have to spend to keep their business on.
3.  Gambling sites All successful businesses will end up owning a lot of bitcoins, if we don't prevent this.
 

4. That's how business works, and it is a good thing.

True, people were born, they are greedy to grave. It does not care if it is bitcoin or not. There are many cases to follow up, if you like to play big, do network, then you have high chance to succeed.

[TippingPoint]

<snip>

<snip>

Thank you both for responding to the sample "Who Uses Bitcoin" promotion that I created (based on the "Who Uses Tor" promotion that I admired).  Since your posts were similar in style, and shared some common points, I will respond to some of the points you made here.

Bitcoin (still in its infancy) is volatile.  But it still has advantages over fiat currencies such as the USD.  For example, look at the value of the USD and the Bitcoin when they are Priced In Gold.





The value of the USD (priced in gold) has been declining steadily.  The value of the Bitcoin (priced in gold) has been increasing.

A parent should be able to directly give his earned and saved wealth directly to his children, without government involvement or limitation.

"Corrupt political jurisdictions" in this context, does not mean people incarcerated in camps.  Have you heard of Cyprus and Argentina?  They have access to computers and the internet.

Travelers using Bitcoins does not mean travelers spending Bitcoins to purchase food, lodging, and transportation (yet).  It means getting your funds there.  You can do that with a Bitcoin wallet, a piece of paper, or an email.  I recommend converting it into the local currency before spending it.

Paying a whistleblower is not "yellow journalism" is it?

[crumbs]

...
The value of the USD (priced in gold) has been declining steadily.  The value of the Bitcoin (priced in gold) has been increasing.

Numbers can be tricky, don't get confused by them.  
Each dollar buys less (inflationary currency), but this is more than made up for by people *earning many more dollars.*  
That's how inflationary economy works -- each dollar buys less, you make more dollars, and as a result, *disposable income of Americans steadily rose since 1940, leveling out in 2008.*  

Bitcoin OTOH, having a 21 mil. ceiling, is not inflationary.  Once the 21 mil. have been mined, that's it.  Yes, it's a great store of value, unless its price crashes, at which point it stops being a great store of value.  
Being a [potential] great store of value also makes it hard to keep in circulation.  There is less incentive to invest, economy becomes stagnant & fails to keep up with population growth, yadda yadda yadda, ugly endgame.

TL;DR:  By comparing bitcoin to dollar, you are comparing a finite number (bitcoin) to an infinite [possible] number (dollar).  In other words, the total dollars continue to buy more each year, though each individual dollar buys less.  Who cares that a single dollar buys less when *all* the dollars you earn buy more.

A parent should be able to directly give his earned and saved wealth directly to his children, without government involvement or limitation.

That's how you get some babies that are billionaires, and some babies who don't have enough to eat.  
It's not the babies' fault that they are born pathetic and poor, and a country full of poor angry babies is a dangerous place.
That's why smart rich babies decided on a thing called taxes.  So that the poor babies would get enough to eat, and be less likely to roast rich babies & eat them instead.
That's important to understand.
 

"Corrupt political jurisdictions" in this context, does not mean people incarcerated in camps.  Have you heard of Cyprus and Argentina?  They have access to computers and the internet.

That's why Cyprus is the bitcoin capital of the world.

Travelers using Bitcoins does mean travelers spending Bitcoins to purchase food, lodging, and transportation (yet).  It means getting your funds there.  You can do that with a Bitcoin wallet, a piece of paper, or an email.  I recommend converting it into the local currency before spending it.

Getting your funds where?  If you haven't been out in a while, i can tell you this:  I can barely convert my bitcoins into spendin' money in places i know well.  Trying to turn bitcoins into foreign coin in deep dark Foregny is a recipe for tears & fail.  
Kids, don't do it. If you just gotta fail, try crack instead.

Paying a whistleblower is not "yellow journalism" is it?

Of course it is.  Paid informants are rats, not whistleblowers.  Spies and traitors get paid -- whistleblowers are admired because they do what they do for truth, always at a peril & loss to themselves.  Jeesh.  Learn to hero.

[TippingPoint]

...
The value of the USD (priced in gold) has been declining steadily.  The value of the Bitcoin (priced in gold) has been increasing.

Numbers can be tricky, don't get confused by them.  
Each dollar buys less (inflationary currency), but this is more than made up for by people *earning many more dollars.*  
That's how inflationary economy works -- each dollar buys less, you make more dollars, and as a result, *disposable income of Americans steadily rose since 1940, leveling out in 2008.*  

Bitcoin OTOH, having a 21 mil. ceiling, is not inflationary.  Once the 21 mil. have been mined, that's it.  Yes, it's a great store of value, unless its price crashes, at which point it stops being a great store of value.  
Being a [potential] great store of value also makes it hard to keep in circulation.  There is less incentive to invest, economy becomes stagnant & fails to keep up with population growth, yadda yadda yadda, ugly endgame.

TL;DR:  By comparing bitcoin to dollar, you are comparing a finite number (bitcoin) to an infinite [possible] number (dollar).  In other words, the total dollars continue to buy more each year, though each individual dollar buys less.  Who cares that a single dollar buys less when *all* the dollars you earn buy more.

Terrific.

The USD must be a truly wonderful thing.

[crumbs]

...
The value of the USD (priced in gold) has been declining steadily.  The value of the Bitcoin (priced in gold) has been increasing.

Numbers can be tricky, don't get confused by them.  
Each dollar buys less (inflationary currency), but this is more than made up for by people *earning many more dollars.*  
That's how inflationary economy works -- each dollar buys less, you make more dollars, and as a result, *disposable income of Americans steadily rose since 1940, leveling out in 2008.*  

Bitcoin OTOH, having a 21 mil. ceiling, is not inflationary.  Once the 21 mil. have been mined, that's it.  Yes, it's a great store of value, unless its price crashes, at which point it stops being a great store of value.  
Being a [potential] great store of value also makes it hard to keep in circulation.  There is less incentive to invest, economy becomes stagnant & fails to keep up with population growth, yadda yadda yadda, ugly endgame.

TL;DR:  By comparing bitcoin to dollar, you are comparing a finite number (bitcoin) to an infinite [possible] number (dollar).  In other words, the total dollars continue to buy more each year, though each individual dollar buys less.  Who cares that a single dollar buys less when *all* the dollars you earn buy more.

Terrific.

The USD must be a truly wonderful thing.

Look at it this way:  
To fill up my car, i have to spend twice as many dollars today as i did when i was a kid.  Inflation.
To fill up my car, i have to spend I still can't fill up my car with bitcoins.  

Shall i make an interesting graph to explain this?
Do you understand that bitcoin is worth $113 at Gox and 99.68 at Bitstamp?  What's it worth where i am?  What's it worth at Gox if i can't get $$ out?
Not being able to buy anything with bitcoin is important unless i'm good with keeping it on Gox & watching numbers flash on the screen.
Cool thing with $$ is i can buy stuff with it.  
That's an important quality for money to have.

Edit:  Lol, just realized that you second chart (showing 2 years of bitcoin vs gold) would look pretty much the same if i substituted dollars for bitcoin   Y?  Because gold was taking a nosedive during that time -- anything compared to gold would look good.  I warned you that numbers can be tricky

[TippingPoint]

If you use Mt. Gox, or anything resembling it, you are doing it wrong.

[crumbs]

If you use Mt. Gox, or anything resembling it, you are doing it wrong.

In that case, what are the charts you're showing me?  Price that Rick in the Wal Mart's parking lot is paying?  See my edit above

[TippingPoint]

Check back in 5 years.  That should make the trend more obvious to you.